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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 12:57:52
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Karsus is a very intrigueing character from the realms but he's not the only power hungry Magic user that ever lived. There are plenty of liches that i find more interesting them him, Szass Tam to name just one. But i ask again why all the hype? He's not as famous as the Blackstaff or Elminster so why do people love this one hit wonder so much?
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:11:54
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| I'm asking this strictly from a readers stand point and not that of a theologian. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:14:17
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He achieved (albeit only for a very brief period of time) godhood, by "stealing" the divinity from the goddess of magic herself. Can any of those weaklings you mentioned claim the same? I think not!  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:22:13
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Perhaps, Synthalus, you came not at the right time. You happen to stroll the keep seeing the many posts of Allistair, the High Priest of Karsus, and some followers (ahem! not so very loyal, though). We did discuss on several other powerful entities like Larloch, Szass Tam, Sammaster, and The Cockroach. If you want, you can resurrect those scrolls by simply performing a search spell found at the upper right corner of your screen. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:24:00
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He did blow up half of Faerūn, destroying the mightiest empire and civilization the world had ever seen. Not to mention killing a goddess and consequently forcing the fundamental laws of the Realms to be rewritten.
Most liches can hardly list more than a handful of destroyed little cities on their resume. Karsus has them beat. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If you take you deeper look on it you will notice that its allawys the same small group of people flodding every thread with him 
Another topic about this:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13513
Which is why I created the Karsus worship thread, to contain the spreading of his word (I know, counterproductive, but alas, the mighty Karsus works in mysterious ways).  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:33:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
He did blow up half of Faerūn, destroying the mightiest empire and civilization the world had ever seen. Not to mention killing a goddess and consequently forcing the fundamental laws of the Realms to be rewritten.
Most liches can hardly list more than a handful of destroyed little cities on their resume. Karsus has them beat.
And don't forget, the system of Weave-based magic changed because of what he did. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:44:50
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| I get it he was a very instrumental character in the formation of the realms we know and love today but for my money he's just a dude from the past. History is great but its just that its history. We cant bring it back and the future is all we have to look foward to, literally. I can't wait to read about the next Karsus esk character that changes the realms forever such as he did. He just has yet to be written about. I'm sure that some Author out there will create a FR character that will out shine Karsus like a light house behind a single lite candle. Its not impossible to think that it can and will be done some day , thats all im trying to say here. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:58:32
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| Yeah, well, Hitler and Genghis Khan and Einstein and Walt Disney and Jesus were all just dudes from the past as well. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Synthalus
I get it he was a very instrumental character in the formation of the realms we know and love today but for my money he's just a dude from the past. History is great but its just that its history. We cant bring it back and the future is all we have to look foward to, literally. I can't wait to read about the next Karsus esk character that changes the realms forever such as he did. He just has yet to be written about. I'm sure that some Author out there will create a FR character that will out shine Karsus like a light house behind a single lite candle. Its not impossible to think that it can and will be done some day , thats all im trying to say here.
Who's to say he'll never return?
If they could resurrect a deity three times and create hundreds of roaches only to have them kill each other, why on Toril would they not find a sensible reason to bring him back? Besides, as noted so many times, there's no such thing as "utterly dead" in the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:18:00
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Karsus/Netheril boiled down to a big Aesop warning Man not to build his Tower of Babylon. The best and brightest (yet also most arrogant and proud) of men, along with his entire world, is destroyed by apocalyptic retribution for daring to reach too far and touch Heaven. Let the tale of Karsus serve as a dire warning and lesson in wisdom and humility, know your place, don't mess with the gods, etc etc.
Isn't it a bit ironic that D&D repeats this theme with the tale of Szass Tam? Like Karsus, he also aspires to ascend to godlike power (if not godhood itself) and reshape the world in his "better" image. Like Karsus, he also has nearly complete disregard for the disruption and damage it will cause. Like Karsus, he also chafes at being "held down" by the gods (though unlike Karsus, Szass Tam is not above attempting to manipulate the gods and use their power).
I see a lot of thematic parallels between Szass and Karsus and their great ambitions; it's almost as if a cataclysmic Dread-Plague RSE is being carefully constructed to justify reformatting Faerūn into 5E, ready to be knocked down at the right time like a long line of dominoes. FWIW, this exact same theme has been explored in Dragonlance a few times as well. Although the fine details differ, the Aesop is being recycled ... why? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:19:46
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| Arik they were all real people accept Jesus depending on your religious beliefs. Karsus is a fictitious character from the FR's past. He has no place in our reality except that of words on paper. he has done nothing substancial because he never was. the author that created him is the real genuis that stole the goddess of magics godhood away from her not the character he invented. I'm not mad that you would come at me like that Arik but i am disappointed. I always take what you have to say seriously i just ask the same of you without the philosophical burns. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Karsus/Netheril boiled down to a big Aesop warning Man not to build his Tower of Babylon. The best and brightest (yet also most arrogant and proud) of men, along with his entire world, is destroyed by apocalyptic retribution for daring to reach too far and touch Heaven. Let the tale of Karsus serve as a dire warning and lesson in wisdom and humility, know your place, don't mess with the gods, etc etc.
Isn't it a bit ironic that D&D repeats this theme with the tale of Szass Tam? Like Karsus, he also aspires to ascend to godlike power (if not godhood itself) and reshape the world in his "better" image. Like Karsus, he also has nearly complete disregard for the disruption and damage it will cause. Like Karsus, he also chafes at being "held down" by the gods (though unlike Karsus, Szass Tam is not above attempting to manipulate the gods and use their power).
I see a lot of thematic parallels between Szass and Karsus and their great ambitions; it's almost as if a cataclysmic Dread-Plague RSE is being carefully constructed to justify reformatting Faerūn into 5E, ready to be knocked down at the right time like a long line of dominoes. FWIW, this exact same theme has been explored in Dragonlance a few times as well. Although the fine details differ, the Aesop is being recycled ... why?
Simple: because people want to read about it. That's like asking why RAS never killed Drizzt after all these years.
Re: Tam and Karsus. The deed might be a bit similar, but never the players nor the means and paths taken to accomplish such deed. Tam is patient and calculating, while Karsus was impatient and reckless. Tam used a ritual that necessitated no god as a fodder, while Karsus stole a deity's divinity. Tam destroyed a country, his own country, while Karsus annihilated an entire empire, altered the system of magic, and consequently changed the lives of all wizards on Toril forever. The differences are part of what makes it still entertaining to many. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Feb 2011 14:35:02 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Synthalus
I can't wait to read about the next Karsus esk character that changes the realms forever such as he did.
Cyric murdered Mystra, which caused the spellplague. Although not a genius like Karsus, he did change the realms forever with that act. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:50:56
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Ah, well then ... Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Dirty Harry, Captain Kirk. What I was trying to say is that, whether they be real or not, dudes from the past can still have a significant impact on us. People talk about the dudes, think about them, quote them, emulate them, in some cases even worship them with almost religious fervour. If your life is memorable and you accomplish great things (good or evil) that impress upon history, then you can still change the world (even if you're dead, or even if you're only a fiction). I wouldn't dismiss dudes from the past; there's good reason we remember them. Dismissing the deeds and accomplishments of Karsus simply because he's ancient history is just as invalid as dismissing those of Caesar, Da Vinci, Bach, or Shakespeare. Dismissing Karsus simply because he's fictional is just as invalid as dismissing Frankenstein, Lancelot, Batman, or Thor ... or Elminster. All generalizations are mistaken.
It's true that you may not like Karsus. Or may not be familiar with Karsus. Or might simply be annoyed that others talk so much about Karsus. That doesn't diminish Karsus (or other peoples's opinions about him) in any way. It's true that FR authors haven't written a lot about Karsus, but what little has been written is still fascinating to some people. I suspect some of the appeal of this character is the fact that so much has never been said about him; we are forced to contemplate and speculate about Karsus instead of just reading a novel about him mixing it up with a handful of popular heroes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 15:06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's true that you may not like Karsus. Or may not be familiar with Karsus. Or might simply be annoyed that others talk so much about Karsus. That doesn't diminish Karsus (or other peoples's opinions about him) in any way. It's true that FR authors haven't written a lot about Karsus, but what little has been written is still fascinating to some people. I suspect some of the appeal of this character is the fact that so much has never been said about him; we are forced to contemplate and speculate about Karsus instead of just reading a novel about him mixing it up with a handful of popular heroes.
Even were there many novels written about him, I doubt his popularity will diminish. His achievements and mistakes are equally entertaining. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 16:19:07
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Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 03 Feb 2011 16:21:44 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 16:32:07
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I've never really understood the Karsus love, but then there have been other scribes who obsessed over/promoted other beings like Vhaeraun, or Moradin, or several others I'm blanking on right now. I just took it as one of the Keep's more endearing weirdnesses. They don't generally derail threads, so I don't have a problem with them.
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 17:40:58
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| And I should like to ask that we stop making comparisons to people who may or may not have existed in the real world. That's a real easy way for a really ugly debate to get started. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 17:57:40
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Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
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Thank You Therise, my sentiments exactly!
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 18:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 19:59:56
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Telamont Tanthul (then called Shadow) actually learned magic at the Karsus academy for magic. He published a radical thesis about demiplanes which generated extreme controversy and opposition (along with the threat of death or exile) from his peers. Karsus offered Shadow sanctuary and magical protection so he could continue his research, thus forming the Shadow Consortium where Shadow (and his team of epic-tier "underground" researchers) studied for at least eleven years before publishing a less heretical model of planar mechanics. Karsus was fascinated by planar mechanics and Shadow's work, plus both of them were specialized as Mentalists it seems quite likely they often worked together closely. Karsus even personally oversaw Shadow's marriage ceremony. He was almost certainly involved in convincing Netheril of Shadow's "death" at the hands of an assassin (who was in fact now Shadow's wife), even building a public shrine at the Consortium. I'm willing to bet they were friends, insofar as Karsus's screwy social capacities would allow.
As for the cautionary tale ...quote:
"Priests and priestesses of the new goddess of magic were told the story of Karsus in dreams and visions when they prayed for spells. It was Mystras attempt to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again."
(Of course, Midnight-Mystra or her successors might have discontinued this practice.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
You're referring to Karsus' repository? If so, I think that's the only one that's been referenced so far. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm willing to bet they were friends, insofar as Karsus's screwy social capacities would allow.
They were friends according to the Netheril box set. Hells, Karsus even married Shadow and Alashar but she basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
Sure, Telamont might remember him, perhaps even Telamont's sons might remember him. But that doesn't mean the majority (or even a minority beyond that family's members) would remember him. Most shadowvar are long-lived, but we are talking hundreds of years. And most of Shade's citizens aren't shadowvar.
Besides, Karsus has been long dead, hundreds of years. Out of sight, out of mind. People are talking about Karsus like he's still alive and plotting. But the truth is, only a rare few would even remember the legend much less think about it on a daily basis. Most people on Faerun would not even know the name.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
Sure, Telamont might remember him, perhaps even Telamont's sons might remember him. But that doesn't mean the majority (or even a minority beyond that family's members) would remember him. Most shadowvar are long-lived, but we are talking hundreds of years. And most of Shade's citizens aren't shadowvar.
Besides, Karsus has been long dead, hundreds of years. Out of sight, out of mind. People are talking about Karsus like he's still alive and plotting. But the truth is, only a rare few would even remember the legend much less think about it on a daily basis. Most people on Faerun would not even know the name.
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Kuje
... [Alashar] basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember.
I believe she birthed twelve Princes of Shade. And was eventually murdered by the eldest, Prince Rivalen, as a sacrifice to Shar.
Aye, but it never says that it was her exactly, and I remember a post by that author and in it he stated that he never thought about if that was her or not. It's buried here in Keep somewhere.
Edit: Looked back through Paul's replies and I was wrong, he did say it was her. So I misremembered. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Feb 2011 01:22:09 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:17:31
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Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Kuje
... [Alashar] basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember.
I believe she birthed twelve Princes of Shade. And was eventually murdered by the eldest, Prince Rivalen, as a sacrifice to Shar.
Aye, but it never says that it was her exactly, and I remember a post by that author and in it he stated that he never thought about if that was her or not. It's buried here in Keep somewhere.
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whats up with all the hype!
