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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:03:06
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Ok, true.
Why am I bothered with interlopers, it's strange, I feel the world is too jumbled when you have e.g. nagas in the North, minotaurs in Damara, trolls in Unther. Takes the uniqueness from each place.
It seems a lot of the gates are connected to some fantastical mythic version of Earth, what if Abeir was like that, then Maztica, Mulhorand and Unther returned home. And the original split was Ymir's death. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:39:01
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I don't have any problem with the concept at all. A few people traffic between the worlds, it's easy for persons (and gods) of power to transplant entire populations (ie, Mulhorand).
Does this apply to other races as well? Perhaps some fey (or drow or orc or giant) nation of ancient times was born of Earth but migrated to Toril? Tyr suddenly appeared one day (with an army of angels) and forced his way into the pantheon ... maybe he came from Earth? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 10:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Does this apply to other races as well? Perhaps some fey (or drow or orc or giant) nation of ancient times was born of Earth but migrated to Toril? Tyr suddenly appeared one day (with an army of angels) and forced his way into the pantheon ... maybe he came from Earth?
It's either that or I think it's suggested in Planescape that the pantheons from Earth are not just of Earth but active in many crystal spheres more or less, almost universal. It's messed up, I like the the third explanation, an alernate-Earth FR. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 02:31:51
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Only after re-reading what you said did I just now get the gist of it - its becuase nearly all the interlopers came from one world (specifically, Earth).
Which is why I am leaning toward the 'All once were ONE' theory in regards to the multiverse (and each world is an alternate path the original world could have taken). I see you mentioned Ymir's death - I take it you may be leaning that way as well.
I also have always imagined that not all of Earth's races were originally from here, which means the Northmen of both worlds may have 'sailed between the worlds' from some other planet where the Aesir rule supreme. I think every major pantheon originated on a single world and spread outward.
Now, if we combine the two, that means that not only were all the worlds imperfect mirrors of each other in the beginning, but so, too, were the gods. So all the similar deities we have from pantheon to pantheon are just different reflections of the same being, now long gone. What became Odin on one world, became Zeus on another, and Ra on yet another.
I don't really think that, BTW - that was just a very basic example using the heads of pantheons - I think the alternate-world version would not have all ended up in charge, so it is more likely 'the thunderer' Became Thor for the Norse, but Zeus for the Greeks. Or Thoth and Odin (and Annam) all stemmed from the same origin (Woten?)
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Why am I bothered with interlopers, it's strange, I feel the world is too jumbled when you have e.g. nagas in the North, minotaurs in Damara, trolls in Unther. Takes the uniqueness from each place.
QFT
Which is why I finally gave up on running FR as a D&D world, even though I am still a huge fan of the setting. I had asked Ed about this problem... the 'Everythingness' of FR - how its forced to have every little thing the D&D rules can throw at it (and also have those things EVERYWHERE, at once). It takes a setting that I think started out as a delicious Jambalaya, and pureed it into Dogfood.
i'm one of those weird people who likes everything not to touch on his plate, and savors each portion in-turn. i don't want to crap my mouth full of everything together, and i sure as hell don't want to drink my salad and desert after they've been run through a blender together.
SEPERATE is GOOD.
And who the heck's idea was it to save some of the Mazticans by having a group of them go to Faerūn just before the Spellplague hit the fan? they FINALLY figure out that breaking Chult off was a good idea (I did that years ago), but then transplanted an Aztec-like culture directly onto the continent. 
The only savings-grace is that they completely ignored that bit of lore right after coming up with it.
Oh... and Shou EVERYWHERE... what the hell? As if it wasn't a hodgepodge before.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2011 02:49:08 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 16:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why I am leaning toward the 'All once were ONE' theory in regards to the multiverse (and each world is an alternate path the original world could have taken). I see you mentioned Ymir's death - I take it you may be leaning that way as well.
It's not how I have, just suggesting for your world, that the Ymir's legend could be a metaphor of the original world's dimensional breakup.
My homebrew world is Earth's history and FR's merged, not broken up. Also the role of gods is lessened. E.g. the Ymir were actually people who survived the Sundering (where Odin was from the polar culture and partially responsible for it). Their name survived in places like Mirar, Almir, Keltormir, Mir of the Lands of Intrigue and Tunlands, the Fomir (fomorians) etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, if we combine the two, that means that not only were all the worlds imperfect mirrors of each other in the beginning, but so, too, were the gods. So all the similar deities we have from pantheon to pantheon are just different reflections of the same being, now long gone. What became Odin on one world, became Zeus on another, and Ra on yet another.
I don't really think that, BTW - that was just a very basic example using the heads of pantheons - I think the alternate-world version would not have all ended up in charge, so it is more likely 'the thunderer' Became Thor for the Norse, but Zeus for the Greeks. Or Thoth and Odin (and Annam) all stemmed from the same origin (Woten?)
I tried once to do the same, turned out too difficult or impossible to resolve, also D&D pantheons of Earth are not really accurate. What would make Woten the original over others? I decided there was one original pre-cataclysmic pantheon (of the ''Watching gods''), after them it was similar to RW history (hundreds of pantheons, thousands of small gods), then the Dawn Cataclysm happened. It's a process of unification into what was in the beginning, only some remnants of RW gods survived e.g. Aphrodite (Sune), Heimdall (Helm), Silvanus ...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why I finally gave up on running FR as a D&D world, even though I am still a huge fan of the setting. I had asked Ed about this problem... the 'Everythingness' of FR - how its forced to have every little thing the D&D rules can throw at it (and also have those things EVERYWHERE, at once). It takes a setting that I think started out as a delicious Jambalaya, and pureed it into Dogfood...
Indeed, I stayed with an alternate version of FR cause of its wonderful geography, it's a great ''skeleton'' for a DM to use. No matter what people say about the bloat, personally a lot of places are generic, particularly if you take out the RW analogies. I need for each place to feel fantastic in its own way.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... and Shou EVERYWHERE... what the hell? As if it wasn't a hodgepodge before.
I like the Chinatown idea so you don't have to go all the way to Kara-Tur, in one or two cities, any more the value drops. |
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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 19:07:33
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I was going to go into a long, rambling treatise somewhere on Lapal migration, but I couldn't find a good spot. I'll keep it brief here. The following terms have been interchanged at different points in history. During some eras, a term might be specific in regards to ancestry. In other eras, it might describe people belonging to a region without regard for racial stock.
Lapal: Virtually extinct as a people. Only the Tashalaran remain. The Lapal were enslaved by the Sarrukh at the dawn of time. After the Sarrukh, the Yuan-ti held them captive for roughly 30,000 years. Rebelled after arrival of Tabaxi, etc. in Chult. Absorbed in Halruua by Netherese. Founders of Lapaliiya. Decimated by Empire Plague. Crushed by Serpentes Empire. Overrun by Shaaran slaves imported by Serpentes.
Tashalaran: The Lapal tribesmen who returned to carve the Tashalar from the claws of the Yuan-ti. Subsequently re-enslaved by Yuan-ti, and successfully rebelled for a second time. Founders of Narubel. Overthrew Serpentes. Founders of Tashtan Confederation. Today these people are more commonly referred to as "Tashalan".
Tashalan: During the reign of Tashtan, this term was used for all the various peoples now referred to as "Lapaliiyans". Today, "Tashalan" describes ethnicity, and has replaced "Tashalaran" to describe the last true descendants of the ethnic Lapal people.
Lapaliiyan: Before the Tashtan Confederation, this described the Lapal people who rebelled and fled from tens of thousands of years of yuan-ti enslavement. From the time the Shoon Empire broke Tashtan, the term "Lapaliiyan" has been used to refer to the various inhabitants of the Lapaliiyan city states, be they ethnically Shaaran, Calishite, Tashalan, or Chultan.
Tashlutan: Inhabitant of the city of Tashluta. Not specific to any ancestry.
Chultan: Immigrants from an island to the southwest of Chult. Brought to Chult and the worship of Ubtao by couatls. Three of the primary tribes were named Eshowe, Tabaxi, and Thinguth. The Eshowe are nearly extinct. The Tabaxi assimilated the lesser tribes and remained in Chult. The Thinguth settled Thindol. All are considered racially Chultan, though the Thinguth are more likely to refer to themselves as "Thindolese". |
Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.) |
Edited by - Sinjin Oban on 06 Apr 2012 22:21:47 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Bedine, I believe they have lore indicating that they are Netherease survivors, and other lore that they were a group transported to Anauroch somehow (I think somewhere it even mentions an evil mage having done it, but I can't be sure ATM). Personally, I combined the two and say that the modern Bedine are a mixture of Netherease survivors and a tribe of Muhjari (southern/zakharan peoples) that wandered through a large portal (probably Imaskari in origin, considering the point of origin). That way, both pieces of canon still work (in that the Bedine existed before the Netherease fall, and after).
I am almost completely positive that I read, canon, that the Bedine descend from Zhakarans that were misplaced in Anauroch via a portal. I believe PGtF says it, if not, it had to have been something in 3E. Maybe one of the Perilous Gateway articles or something. I just swear I read that they are Zhakaran and the proof was their language was very similar to the Zhakaran language. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:33:58
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Expanding on Quale's thoughts a bit, especially where a "proto-patriarch" is shaped into the role of local pantheon ruler ...
Every religion contains a creation myth, and as often as not the first people are somehow decended directly from the gods. Perhaps, as an example, a population of Aesirblood humans (descended from Odin, etc) brings the Norse powers wherever it may fumble across worlds and planes ... but the gods have as little choice as the humans, they depend on this "resonant" symbiosis and are unable to travel any other direction. What I'm saying is that Tyr couldn't just deploy a bored aspect on a five year mission to find strange new worlds and explore new civilizations ... he would only be aware of worlds where his people (his descendants?) actually carry his "essence". Perhaps a human with enough divine ancestry would attract his parental pantheon regardless of faith; a grandson of Herakles, for example, might bring the Greek pantheon everywhere he travels, regardless of his (or his gods') desires and intentions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 19:17:07
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Which means the Bedine language - printed on the inside cover of the Anauroch supplement - should also apply (somewhat) to Midani (the Zakharan language).
However, considering the massive time-gap, I would say it would as hard for them to understand each-other as a modern english speaker trying to understand someone speaking Auld English (which is quite a bit harder then reading Shakespeare).
The Bedine tongue will also have gained many influences from both the Rengardt tribes indigenous to the region, and from the Netherese themselves (since they apparently existed in the desert before the fall, at least for a little while).
Some source or other say the modern Bedine are descended from the Nethrese, so thats the only way to reconcile the two - the modern Bedine are Netherease/Zakharan crossbreeds. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 03:04:16
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| -Perhaps the first Zakharans came to the area when the Phaerimm's campaign of ecological terrorism first turned the area into a parched sea of desert. The Netherese knew of Zakhara, so perhaps some enterprising resident though that if anyone would be able to turn the desert back into something livable, it would be some Zakharans (either as slaves, or guests). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 04:46:01
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| It already is canon that the Bedine are descended from portal-transported Zakharans and Netherese survivors. It's the first sentence in their paragraph in Race of Faerun. They even kept distorted versions of the Netherese deities (presumably because they were out of the Zakharan pantheon's jurisdiction, so to speak). They have lifestyles incredibly similar to the Al-Badia of Zakhara because the agricultural, sedentary culture of the Low Netherese was pretty much obsolete. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 23 Apr 2012 04:49:55 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Human Sub Race Tree?
