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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 23:03:35
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the brain and the way the creature looks at things changes
probably humans can eventually become like elves, like those children raised by wolves, elves are not that adaptable |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 23:58:47
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| Not that much, I would think. The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in. If a human was raised by elves, he'd think like one, and the same would be true for an elf raised by humans. Your thinking is largely based on what you know from "birth" (or reincarnation, as the case may be) If someone was a human in a former life and became an elf after reincarnation, he's still think like a human, Same goes for a human who was once an elf. Most of it comes from life-experience, thought there might be some tendencies toward acting and thinking outside the "norm" of that race (ie- he'd be more likely to understand the other race as well as his own former race. So he'd look human, but think elf, or vice-versa, but still be able to learn the new race's ways. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 00:28:01
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Y'know, the OP's question is a lot more layered than I first gave it credit for (sorry!). There are various magical ways to physically change a human or half-elf into an elf, and vice versa, but is it possible to change their integral identity? This isn't even as philosophical a question as it seems in the worlds we're talking about because of things like race-specific magic items and so on.
Here's a question. Would a moonblade "work" for an elf who owned it but who was temporarily polymorphed into another race? Does the answer change if the polymorph is permanent? Is it different if the body change happened by other means?
Cheers,
Christopher |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Here's a question. Would a moonblade "work" for an elf who owned it but who was temporarily polymorphed into another race? Does the answer change if the polymorph is permanent? Is it different if the body change happened by other means?
Cheers,
Christopher
The moonblade decides, existing lore appears to indicates that the blade does not always work with direct descendants - it though might work for the bloodline further down the bloodline. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:10:12
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| Second edition explicitly allowed wish to change a character's race (DM Option: High Level Campaigns, p.76). |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in.
Not at all, elves are not humans with strange ears, that's less interesting, they're truly alien, their minds of the Weave |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in.
Not at all, elves are not humans with strange ears, that's less interesting, they're truly alien, their minds of the Weave
I agree with Quale. Elves and humans are not really alike at all. Elves are much more a part of the Weave, the world, and each other. I think that it may be as much that as it is a cultural bias when it comes to the views on half-elves. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:25:14
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I pretty much agree with Quale as well. Which takes me back to being undecided on the whole issue. Physically transformative magic, and reincarnation, may give one the physical brain of an elf but does it give one the mind of an elf? Does the concept of a soul come into play here? And if what's important is the mind and/or the soul, then is physical transformation necessary at all to becoming something else? That is to say, can one wish to be an elf in the physical body of another type of being and still fundamentally be an elf?
Scratching my head, wandering off to think about this some more,
Christopher
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I pretty much agree with Quale as well. Which takes me back to being undecided on the whole issue. Physically transformative magic, and reincarnation, may give one the physical brain of an elf but does it give one the mind of an elf? Does the concept of a soul come into play here? And if what's important is the mind and/or the soul, then is physical transformation necessary at all to becoming something else? That is to say, can one wish to be an elf in the physical body of another type of being and still fundamentally be an elf?
Scratching my head, wandering off to think about this some more,
Christopher
Like most things, it depends on what lore you refer to.
However humans have souls, elves had spirit.
The old raise from dead rules did make it very hard to raise an elf from the dead, reincarnate however, IIRC, could work with a chance of still being an elf.
Elves were part of the Weave and actually never died, just they became spirits.
I have no idea what the current lore/history is. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 18:44:01
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| Aside from the "being" part of the Weave", I think that an elf raised by humans, with no contact with other elves, WOULD still think much as a human- he would not KNOW any other way of thinking. He might sense that there was something about himself that was different from humans, but that would be about it. He might wonder why he did not sleep, or why he had a better grasp of magic, but he would not KNOW that he was inherantly ocnnected to the Weave, because there would be no one to teach him those things. An elf may have some innate physical an/or psychological differences, but without anyone to explain/teach/show him those differences, he'd have no way to learn to "think like an elf". Which was the point of my post. Same with a human raised by elves- he would not learn to think as a human, because he would have no human perspective to learn from. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:02:13
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It has been proposed that humans cannot turn into elves and vice versa, regardless of their physical transformation, due to assumptions regarding the "nurture" aspect of culture and also perhaps because of some fundamental, untranslatable quality of the soul/spirit.
But assume that a young human man of 20 is reincarnated as an elf, and then spends 180 years in that form. Is he still not an elf when he has spent only 10% of his years as a human and 90% of his years as an elf?
What about a human baby that is raised by elves, who may even self-identify as an elf. He speaks the language, thinks very similar to an elf, is he an elf then? Or could he be said not to fully be one due to his brain, senses, anatomy and perhaps even "soul" being subtly different somehow as a human. After 20-30 years of being raised as an elf, is he human or elf? Then suppose he is reincarnated as an elf, or has his race changed by means of a wish or other spell. Now his anatomy is fully elven. He has both the nature and nurture of an elf; is he an elf now?
At what point does he "become" an elf? Or do you suppose he can never become one no matter what?
Lastly, is there no way a spell could grant one that ineffable elfiness that, in addition to the mere physical anatomy, makes an alteration to one's spirit that renders a human fully elven (or back the other way)? Magic is mysterious that way. Do you suppose that is beyond the ability of magic to effect such a transformation? It seems like there should be a way to do it. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 04:43:13
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| Ah! Finally, someone gets it. This question is what I have been trying to address, the concept of someone born and raised in the culture of a completely different race, with no other influences- are they still "human" or "elf", or are they still their race of birth regardless of whether they later change their race? If the human was raised as an elf and is later turned into one, IS he still "human", even though he has spent his entire life thinking and acting like one? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Turn elf into human? Or human into elf?
