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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 00:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They would have never run out of room on Toril, either. It was their choice to keep producing sourcebooks covering the same regions and subjects (like Drow). Fans were begging for a new Old Empires regional book.
Or an update on Cormyr... They could have also fleshed out and further developed any of the countless minor plotpoints from 2E, anything from the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars, to what happened to the Cliffwatch Inn in Waterdeep, to further development of NPCs like Jeryth Phaulkon or Elsura Daunir. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They would have never run out of room on Toril, either. It was their choice to keep producing sourcebooks covering the same regions and subjects (like Drow). Fans were begging for a new Old Empires regional book.
Or an update on Cormyr... They could have also fleshed out and further developed any of the countless minor plotpoints from 2E, anything from the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars, to what happened to the Cliffwatch Inn in Waterdeep, to further development of NPCs like Jeryth Phaulkon or Elsura Daunir.
Or focusing on aspects that have otherwise been ignored since the earliest days of the Realms... like deity/clergy-related rituals, and the shape and function of the various faiths across the Realms. Ceremonies, and the like. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 02:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They would have never run out of room on Toril, either. It was their choice to keep producing sourcebooks covering the same regions and subjects (like Drow). Fans were begging for a new Old Empires regional book.
Or an update on Cormyr... They could have also fleshed out and further developed any of the countless minor plotpoints from 2E, anything from the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars, to what happened to the Cliffwatch Inn in Waterdeep, to further development of NPCs like Jeryth Phaulkon or Elsura Daunir.
So very true. I would probably still buy a Cormyr sourcebook today, even if it was meant for the 4e Realms that I don't use(in which case it'd be my first such purchase), so long as it had a reasonably detailed history section that covered the 3e and 3.5e era of Cormyr. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 03:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They would have never run out of room on Toril, either. It was their choice to keep producing sourcebooks covering the same regions and subjects (like Drow). Fans were begging for a new Old Empires regional book.
I'm still wondering why why they choose Rokugon for 3eOA, when FR was supposedly 3e's flagship setting.
Its a fantasy setting, which means by definition EVERYTHING is made-up, which proves the fallacy of such statements as "everything was already detailed". The only thing it proves is that they were unable to create new material (for whatever reason). At what point is a world where you can create whatever you like too detailed to create more information?
And I'm not even talking about other continents - I'm talking about how Ed can take a simple question in his thread and go on for several pages about it. Things as 'small' as a single personage, locale, or item.
They created a system focused around "roleplay-lite" because they CAN'T do what Ed does - make every single thing interesting. Ed probably has enough unknown Realms-lore in his basement to publish 20 splats a year for the next 50 years.
A business-model that depends on never-ending rules is doomed to failure through maximum saturation (and over-complexity), whereas a closed system that revolves around never-ending setting-detail appeals to the collectors, which nearly all gamers are at heart.
Paizo doesn't plan on producing less splats, only the right kind of splats. The world (setting) is the most interesting aspect of RPGing, and perhaps WotC has lost sight of that. The rules are a tool, nothing more, and they are NOT the reason why we play.
Correction, it's not the reason you play. The same can't be said for everyone else. 3E's view was to take everything and turn it into a rule or game material to be utilized at the playing table. Lore is great for better insight into a campaign setting. Lore is great to that little "extra" for you character. Lore is great for in-depth story telling and giving players a sense that the world they're playing in is bigger than the small area they've adventured in. All of these factors is what makes Faerun and Golarion an awesome setting. It's also not as high on the totem-pole for many many gamers out there who could give a rat's butt about Lore. They perceive the books WotC published during 3E as tools to be used at the gaming table to enhance their character mechanically, throw different and stronger bad-guys at them, and to create interesting items for them to make and/or buy. Nothing more, nothing less.
This isn't just Realms specific but genre specific. These sorts of gamers spend lots of $$ on not just FR material but Dark Sun, Eberron, Dragon Lance, etc....for the mechanics of what such-and-such class does or how such-and-such feat from some obscure book makes this character do 10000 DPR. Oh yea, I guess it's a FR supplement, soooo my character is from Vaasa and he's a tribal character. Done. THAT is the character depth many gamers put into their character. It's not right or wrong, just different and 4E has built that shallowness into the game to appeal to that crowed. I honestly believe that WotC just expects us more experienced gamers to inject the fluff ourselves. With the few rules for fluff, experienced gamers now have that ability and won't be hindered by mechanics that do little to enhance our creativity for our character's backround.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The simple matter is, 4E was NEEDED to A.) appeal to a bigger fan-base. A fan-base less concerned about the intricate rules designed for hard core Role Players and more about hack'n'slash (I know, I'm one of them).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Just killing stuff for phat lewts" is already done, VERY WELL, by comp/video games, and is not really a great future plan for P&P RPGs, IMHO. I enjoy sessions of that myself, and play several MORPGs - everything from Wizards101 to World of Warcraft, and while I have great fun playing them, that's not what I want out of my P&P sessions, which I enjoy far more (when I can get them).
Any edition can be used in that regards, 4E just makes it easier because it's very basic in design. 4E puts more power in the DM hands than I've ever seen in 3e/v3.5. It's vague when it comes to certain things because sometimes ruling change and I think a lot of Rule-Lawyers hate that system for this reason. It's only Hack'n'Slash if you deem it so, not a requirement of the system.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not a knock, at all - I just don't think that trying to compete with the electronic market place is a good business decision. P&P RPGs should focus on what they can do that VG's can't, which is to give us a completely interactive and immersive game world. Focus on your strengths, NOT on your competition's strengths. They will never be able to do the eye-candy thing better then VGs, which is what makes the hack'N'slash game so playable. Without the visuals, most modern electronic RPGs are little more then math-tables and random-number generators. Thats just rules - the layer 'underneath' that most of us never see. I first played comp games before we had monitors (just teletypes), and remember what that was like before the sweet visuals (so yeah, Myst changed the world). That old-school computer knowledge allows me to comprehend the underlying code, and see 'the man behind the curtain'. It ain't pretty; it's all just math... just like a crunch-based splatbook.
I think they should compete with that market. Just look at the cross-overs! I've even gotten a few co-workers to try out D&D for the first time and the only reason they were even interested was because they were fans of Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1&2. So if a PnP-RPG can give them the same feeling of character depth, killing monsters, engaging in a fun story, and a fun night with friends with say 4E then more power to it. I think 4E is the best system for bringing in new players. It's easy to understand and it works well with other modes of Role-Playing like video games.
Of course, this is all IMO. And while we might disagree in certain aspects of our hobby, we CAN agree that the Forgotten Realms is a great place to adventure in regardless of time/place/edition and that it's future is something I think we (this community and the RPG one) would still see flouish. |
Edited by - Diffan on 23 Jan 2011 03:47:15 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 03:53:06
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BTW I'd like to give us all a round of applause for the simple fact that this thread as gone on 4 pages without becoming the target of edition wars, thread de-railment, personal attacks and/or flaming  !
I hope this is a sign that as Realms fans we can set aside personal distaste for strongly opiniated open debate while remaining civil towards one another. I'm so proud of you guys *wipes tear* |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:01:19
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I think we're seeing that Hasbro made some serious mistakes with 4e. What exactly those mistakes were, I'm not going to particularly theorize on, though I have very strong opinions.
But we've certainly seen a series of major line adjustments (Essentials, the just-announced cancellations). We've also seen reports that Pathfinder has matched D&D sales (ICv2 report, Q3-2010) or even exceeded them (Ryan Dancey's first EnWorld column, Jan 18th), the first time a rival RPG has seriously challenged D&D in sales, ever. These are not signs of health for 4e. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or an update on Cormyr...
This.
They sort of got close with the Cormyr adventure as it had an update on the region in Cormyr where the adventure took place in the appendix.
During the later part of 3E, it seemed to me like WotC was treating the Realms as "old" and out of date. Instead of doing that and trying to strip the FR logo from rulebooks, I wish WotC would have introduced more rules and rulebooks through the Realms.
Think of it as an expansion on the Prestige Class concept. Tie in the rules to the flavor of the (unexplored) parts of Faerun and Toril. If they'd gone to other continents, it would have been less influenced by the Realms, but part of the same setting.
Contrary to Diffan, I don't think 4E was needed at all. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 23 Jan 2011 05:21:13 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by see
I think we're seeing that Hasbro made some serious mistakes with 4e. What exactly those mistakes were, I'm not going to particularly theorize on, though I have very strong opinions.
But we've certainly seen a series of major line adjustments (Essentials, the just-announced cancellations). We've also seen reports that Pathfinder has matched D&D sales (ICv2 report, Q3-2010) or even exceeded them (Ryan Dancey's first EnWorld column, Jan 18th), the first time a rival RPG has seriously challenged D&D in sales, ever. These are not signs of health for 4e.
For those interested, you can read Ryan's column here |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 13:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by see
I think we're seeing that Hasbro made some serious mistakes with 4e. What exactly those mistakes were, I'm not going to particularly theorize on, though I have very strong opinions.
But we've certainly seen a series of major line adjustments (Essentials, the just-announced cancellations). We've also seen reports that Pathfinder has matched D&D sales (ICv2 report, Q3-2010) or even exceeded them (Ryan Dancey's first EnWorld column, Jan 18th), the first time a rival RPG has seriously challenged D&D in sales, ever. These are not signs of health for 4e.
I see the opposite actually. To me it shows that they're willing to adapt to the ebb and flow of the market and target audience. The release of Essentials was a great way to extrapolate on the classes they currently have while adding interesting character archs previously untouched by 4E. Also, it was a way for them to compile all the rule changes prior to Essentials into one supplement instead of a few pages at the back of every supplement. And judging from the style and quality of their products for the past 4 months I'm pretty confident that D&D is going strong.
I think Paizo's good sales are in part a result of people's love for the previous style of d20/OGL and the large separation of rules of 4E. But just because the sales are on par with WotC's sales of 4E doesn't foretell it's downfall. It just shows that one system is just as good (in different ways) in comparison to another and that the fan base still finds a lot of uses for d20/OGL. Espically when you have fans like myself who patron both Paizo and WotC because I love variety. Since I know v3.5/PF so well and it's free online database is super easy to access I'd be silly not to utilize that system for some awesome gaming. On the flip side, 4E brings to light A LOT of aspects which I find really interesting, fun, and has more "flare" for characters in combat. Plus DMing 4E is a breeze compared to v3.5/PF. |
Edited by - Diffan on 23 Jan 2011 13:53:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:57:03
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I'll agree that Paizo's sales don't necessarily fortell the downfall of 4E, but I do believe this is the first time in the history of D&D that the game has had serious competition. There have long been other systems and other companies producing them, but WotC and TSR before them always remained the biggest kid on the block. They still are the biggest kid on the block, but for the first time, they are not the dominant leader.
Can Paizo supplant WotC as the biggest name in RPGs? Maybe, maybe not. I do think it's telling, though, that for the first time since Gary Gygax intro'ed the game, that someone appears poised to do supplant the original.
Factoids like this tidbit about sales, and the first run of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook selling out before its debut at GenCon, have got to have WotC execs very nervous. I'd love to sit in on some of those staff meetings! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DiffanPlus DMing 4E is a breeze compared to v3.5/PF.
This is the only statement that I continually have a problem with.
In all my years of gaming, the one thing that always made DM'ing more time-consuming and difficult had nothing to do with the rules we were using and everything to do with the story you were telling. The story is where the meat of the game is and also where the biggest pitfalls are. If you are telling a sub-par story, you're players will call you out on it and, most likely, this is where the dynamic will fall apart. On the flip side, you as a DM, cannot prepare for everything a party may do during the game. Even if you run published adventures you bought at the store, the players can make decisions designers never even considered.
So I don't (and will never) see how a ruleset makes DM'ing easier.
Of course, now the response to this will be "but 4E makes monster generation/rules adjudication/etc. easier because of X". In response to that, I'd like to point out that most of my DM's (and myself) never had any issues with that no matter what rules we were running (even non-D&D rules). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:16:51
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When I said Breeze, I was speaking of the speed in which it takes me to prepare for a campaign. Your correct in that a DM can't prepare for every out come, but quick access and the speed in which it takes to make up encounters, use monster (or change monster's stats), and dole out XP and treausre is measured in minutes instead of hours or scrapping the session completly or fudging the rules on the fly.
This is why using published adventures is much easier, as a lot of the story is already laid out for you. For example, in my upcoming Heroes of the Moonsea adventure (v3.5) I'm using 4 pre-made adventures that'll take my PCs from level 1 to 18! I expect some changes, deaths, and alterations to the adventure in addition to alternative plots that might or might not come to pass. But I've the time now to devote to running this style of campaign. Had I 2 hours to make something up, I'd run 4E without question. AND it would be just as involved as the previous adventure because I have more time to devote to the story/plot without having to sit through 5 Monster Manuals, 2 DMGs, and setting material. It's all online, right at my finger tips. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll agree that Paizo's sales don't necessarily fortell the downfall of 4E, but I do believe this is the first time in the history of D&D that the game has had serious competition. There have long been other systems and other companies producing them, but WotC and TSR before them always remained the biggest kid on the block. They still are the biggest kid on the block, but for the first time, they are not the dominant leader.
Can Paizo supplant WotC as the biggest name in RPGs? Maybe, maybe not. I do think it's telling, though, that for the first time since Gary Gygax intro'ed the game, that someone appears poised to do supplant the original.
Question is, Is this good for the RPG community or bad? I feel healthy competition keeps costs low, quality up, and breeds great ideas like Fortune Cards or the Paizo equivolent (can't remembe the name off-hand). Of course it's not great for WotC, as they're no longer Top Dog, but it's good for consumers and now WotC and Paizo have to work hard to gain our $$.
By biggest gripe is the fact that I can't run all three (v3.5/PF/4E) systems more often  .
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Factoids like this tidbit about sales, and the first run of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook selling out before its debut at GenCon, have got to have WotC execs very nervous. I'd love to sit in on some of those staff meetings!
I'd like that as well. In fact, if they were worth their salt as a gaming industry they'd have people who utilize their product and give great professional criticism back to the big Corporate guys just to let them know where they stand and where they need to be 2 years down the road. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Factoids like this tidbit about sales, and the first run of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook selling out before its debut at GenCon, have got to have WotC execs very nervous. I'd love to sit in on some of those staff meetings!
I'd like that as well. In fact, if they were worth their salt as a gaming industry they'd have people who utilize their product and give great professional criticism back to the big Corporate guys just to let them know where they stand and where they need to be 2 years down the road.
Heh, if they'd have solicited my input years back, instead of a new edition, we'd have a fully-functional, subscription-based and rules-neutral virtual gaming table hosted by a very reliable third party, with the weight of WotC behind it to give it prominence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:10:20
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Frankly, I'm not sure what they would do in 5E, except perhaps swing back to individually customizable PCs and monsters. Or perhaps do something completely different like a roleplaying-computer hybrid.
But at this point, I don't think anyone will believe that WotC can effectively incorporate and deliver on a computerized element (like a gaming table to connect people in different cities for the same gaming session). So it will likely be something else or a reversion back to customizability. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
When I said Breeze, I was speaking of the speed in which it takes me to prepare for a campaign. Your correct in that a DM can't prepare for every out come, but quick access and the speed in which it takes to make up encounters, use monster (or change monster's stats), and dole out XP and treausre is measured in minutes instead of hours or scrapping the session completly or fudging the rules on the fly.
This is why using published adventures is much easier, as a lot of the story is already laid out for you. For example, in my upcoming Heroes of the Moonsea adventure (v3.5) I'm using 4 pre-made adventures that'll take my PCs from level 1 to 18! I expect some changes, deaths, and alterations to the adventure in addition to alternative plots that might or might not come to pass. But I've the time now to devote to running this style of campaign. Had I 2 hours to make something up, I'd run 4E without question. AND it would be just as involved as the previous adventure because I have more time to devote to the story/plot without having to sit through 5 Monster Manuals, 2 DMGs, and setting material. It's all online, right at my finger tips.
I still don't see much of a difference. If you're writing your own story, the ruleset is not going to make setup any quicker or not. The TOOLS you use will. Yes, for 4E, I can sign up for a DDI account and have a whole bunch of tools crunch the numbers for me and give me all the NPCs/etc. I need. But in 3E, I can do the same thing using my Hero Labs programs. Both take me the same amount of time.
All I'm trying to say is that the RULES you use don't make the accounting any more easier. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But at this point, I don't think anyone will believe that WotC can effectively incorporate and deliver on a computerized element (like a gaming table to connect people in different cities for the same gaming session). So it will likely be something else or a reversion back to customizability.
Well, they promised to do so a few years ago, and lately it's popped back up. With the right approach (which in my opinion includes being rules-neutral, with rulesets as purchasable plug-ins, and the service being hosted and maintained by a third-party company with a good rep for service and uptime), a virtual gaming table could link all those players who have laid down their dice due to time constraints (mostly scheduling conflicts) and/or the dissolution of their gaming groups. A virtual table could bring past, present, and future gamers into the game, unlike a ruleset which is only going to reach those that have the time and money right now.
MMOs are ascendant right now because everyone has a computer, and you can play at your own schedule. You can't always do that with a gaming group, and rulebooks, unlike computers, have only one purpose. Let everyone play when they want, and you'll have more people at the table. It may only be a virtual table, but that's better than none at all. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 18:40:09
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well if they do beat up the DnD, then I hope Paizo is smart enought not to sell out ot Hasbro.....
but enough of that, I'd buy a Cormyr book for 4e too, but like the way above me stated " only if it had a detailed history...." |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 18:41:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think they should compete with that market. Just look at the cross-overs! I've even gotten a few co-workers to try out D&D for the first time and the only reason they were even interested was because they were fans of Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1&2. So if a PnP-RPG can give them the same feeling of character depth, killing monsters, engaging in a fun story, and a fun night with friends with say 4E then more power to it. I think 4E is the best system for bringing in new players. It's easy to understand and it works well with other modes of Role-Playing like video games.
THIS I can agree with, to a point.
It is a great entry-level system, but I have been called to task before for calling it that.
That's the reason I planned to start two new D&D groups - both with young people - using the 4e rules. That hasn't gotten off the ground yet, unfortunately, but that is still my plan. I am currently far from home hoping to start the one group before I leave.
I suppose there is room for both Pathfinder and D&D - there have always been RPG systems with different levels of 'depth', from Tunnels & Trolls to Chivalry & Sorcery. Ergo, 4e would be a very good system to introduce people to P&P RPGs. In fact, it will be just like it was when we had both OD&D and AD&D, except AD&D is now Pathfinder and controlled by another company.
I just had a scary thought - Hasbro buys Paizo. 
And please don't say "never happen" - EVERYTHING has it's price, and Hasbro has DEEP pockets.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd love to sit in on some of those staff meetings!
So would I. I'm sure it would be fascinating. Maybe they can do a reality show.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 19:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just had a scary thought - Hasbro buys Paizo.
And please don't say "never happen" - EVERYTHING has it's price, and Hasbro has DEEP pockets.
You know, I'm not sure if I'd like this plan or not. On one hand, WotC would have good reason to produce v3.75 material again while on the other, it might diminish 4E sales which is like competition with itself. I'm fairly sure this wouldn't happen because it's not in WotC best interest at this point. I mean, unless they plan on shelfing the whole 4E/Essentials line then this is of a bigger possibility.
The funny thing is, all the people they've let go over the past two years would then be WotC employees again or at least writing for them once more, lol. And the circle is now complete.
If WotC was really smart, they join forces with Blizzard again to create a 4E version of WoW, with all new up to date rules for that setting including new races, classes, powers, rituals, and monsters to battle.
I can see it now....
"Adventure through the plauge lands of Tirisfal, battling the Forsaken and cutting a swath to the Blood Elf homelands. Play as an Orc trying to regain your honor in the wilderness that is Kalimdor. Battle the evil forces of the Scourge and fight along side your friends in new, detailed dungeons featuring your favorite locations from the game."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 20:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
You know, I'm not sure if I'd like this plan or not. On one hand, WotC would have good reason to produce v3.75 material again while on the other, it might diminish 4E sales which is like competition with itself.
They can't, if they've signed the GSL!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 20:21:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But at this point, I don't think anyone will believe that WotC can effectively incorporate and deliver on a computerized element (like a gaming table to connect people in different cities for the same gaming session). So it will likely be something else or a reversion back to customizability.
Well, they promised to do so a few years ago, and lately it's popped back up. With the right approach (which in my opinion includes being rules-neutral, with rulesets as purchasable plug-ins, and the service being hosted and maintained by a third-party company with a good rep for service and uptime), a virtual gaming table could link all those players who have laid down their dice due to time constraints (mostly scheduling conflicts) and/or the dissolution of their gaming groups. A virtual table could bring past, present, and future gamers into the game, unlike a ruleset which is only going to reach those that have the time and money right now.
MMOs are ascendant right now because everyone has a computer, and you can play at your own schedule. You can't always do that with a gaming group, and rulebooks, unlike computers, have only one purpose. Let everyone play when they want, and you'll have more people at the table. It may only be a virtual table, but that's better than none at all.
Believe me, I think a D&D branded online gaming table would be a huge benefit to their company, boosting profits in a big way and allowing people all across the world to connect. But I think WotC's "street cred" on their ability to make such a thing happen is pretty low right now.
But yes, if they could do it edition free (best scenario) or even 4E, I think they'd have the "next big thing" in gaming.
And I agree that MMOs are great, to a point; the endless grind and repetetiveness becomes stale. I have loved several MMOs that are still available now, and I still play. But imagining a gaming table with a toolset to create your own adventures, that would bring me back in pretty fast. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 00:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I see the opposite actually. To me it shows that they're willing to adapt to the ebb and flow of the market and target audience.
A business doesn't change product strategies unless the existing product strategy is underperforming. If the existing strategy is underperforming, in business terms, that means something is going wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But just because the sales are on par with WotC's sales of 4E doesn't foretell it's downfall. It just shows that one system is just as good (in different ways) in comparison to another and that the fan base still finds a lot of uses for d20/OGL.
It's absolutely unprecedented for any other TRPG to have sales in D&D's ballpark, no matter how good they were as games. IIRC, even when TSR was basically shut down, it remained the market leader. When a line goes from undisputed master of a market for 35 years with no signs of fading, to a dead heat with a competitor, it indicates that, as a business, the managers of the line did something wrong.
To be clear, I'm not talking down 4e as a game, and I'm not even suggesting it means 4e is doomed. But there's no way it was part of the expected business plan in 2008 that D&D 4th Edition would wind up where it is today in either product strategy or relative sales. Things went seriously wrong. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 03:54:27
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Concerning the virtual table: I think that will make or break D&D, and decide its future. I've said it before in another thread, and I'll say it again - they NEED to provide at least some low-level usability with other systems, and it has to be simple, with NO glitches and run smoothly. If they can do that and become the dominant 'must-have' RPG accessory, they will be able to turn this around. Control the interface most people use, and you can control their wallets (I cite Facebook once again as the ultimate example).
And it has to be FREE - I don't care how hard it would be to push that past the shareholders, but they have to do it that way, otherwise the only people who will try it will be the customers they already have... which will accomplish nothing.
Bait the hook, THEN real them in. 
Plus it will put some much-needed good-will in their corner, which never hurts.
I would also suggest they somehow come out with one-time-use 'codes' within printed rulebooks that would open-up features within the gaming table (thus connecting, and insuring the success of, BOTH sources of income). Several games currently use this model - it would work very much like 'game cards', but would unlock the rules within the game-table associated with the sourcebook purchased (and would create that 'collectible' atmosphere that D&D has always had, but bring it to a new level.).
Just imagine them offering pre-release sales the way VG's do, like getting a special limited edition weapon or piece of armor - EVERYONE will rush out to buy the damn sourcbook to get the 'goodies' (which cuts WAY down on the desirability of pirated books). If there is one way to get gamers to spend their money, its offering them something uber-kewl that no one else has. That one-upmanship is built into our psyches.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If WotC was really smart, they join forces with Blizzard again to create a 4E version of WoW, with all new up to date rules for that setting including new races, classes, powers, rituals, and monsters to battle.
I don't know if Blizzard would be interested in a collaboration anymore. I bought some of the Diablo D&D products, and really liked them, and it would be cool if they could do it again. I just don't see it, though (they have their own highly successful IP's at this point now).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
You know, I'm not sure if I'd like this plan or not. On one hand, WotC would have good reason to produce v3.75 material again while on the other, it might diminish 4E sales which is like competition with itself.
They can't, if they've signed the GSL!
That was almost spit-take worthy - nice one.
And I really don't see that ever happening. Not that Paizo wouldn't sell (like I said, EVERYONE has their price), but I really don't see Hasbro wanting to dabble further into the RPG market, until they see some sort of highly lucrative return. I'm not sure if D&D has really done enough for them thus-far. It was simply an odd (and scary) thought that popped into my head.
RPG's are a niche-market, and I don't really think mega-corporations can provide the amount of hand-holding they require. Once again, not a knock; just pointing out that the mass-market approach doesn't work with a niche genre - something is lost in the translation. 4e was clearly designed to appeal to largest amount of possible consumers, and that may (IMO) prove to be its downfall. They can't just aim everywhere and hope for a hit.
David didn't take-down Goliath with a nuclear warhead - he just used one well-aimed stone. In the former case you may win the day, but can you survive the fallout? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2011 14:44:45 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 09:37:16
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The aspect of all of this that's(to me, at least) MIND-BLOWING is that Hasbro is essentially now in a neck-and-neck competition with its OWN IP: The Folks at Paizo (many blessings upon them, for I love their work) did not come up with their system from scratch- it's a revamp of Hasbro's own d20 rules. This says to me that Hasbro gaveup on the well while it still had a great deal of water to pump. In business, it's *never* a good sign when you abandon a strong product for a questionable one.
Please note that I'm not saying that 4E doesn't have its merits or its aficionados; it clearly has both. What I'm saying is that this is like Microsoft (long the industry leader in its field) abandoning Windows to go to a totally different interface called 'Doors', and seeing Texas Instruments release 'Windows '11' to huge sales amid thousands of blog posts insisting that any consumer who buys 'Doors' is just falling for a money-grab on Microsoft's part. IMO, it was an ill-considered move, and one which any number of execs at WotC and Hasbro would LOVE to take back, despite its successes. It's as though Coca-Cola went with New Coke while Pepsi started mass-producing Coke Classic to rave reviews. I hope that the new competitiveness is good for the industry, but I worry that Wizbro will just ditch the FR IP, never to be seen again. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 13:49:52
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Re: Hasbro buying Paizo.
Yes, they have deep pockets and, yes, everyone has their price. However, I don't see it happening. The reason Hasbro bought WotC in the first place was not D&D. They bought them for the Pokemon license and that alone. I've always gotten the feeling that Hasbro couldn't care less about RPGs. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 14:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by DiffanPlus DMing 4E is a breeze compared to v3.5/PF.
This is the only statement that I continually have a problem with.
While I can't compare DMing 4E to Paizo (I only skimmed through the books at the store), I can compare it to 3.5 and personally have found it far easier. All the story stuff ammounts to the same work, but the technical stuff of figuring out appropriate challenge, xp, adjusting monsters for the encounter etc... have made my life much easier. If you have an easy time with the other sets, more power to you since they are very fun systems to play. |
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Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 15:26:30
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I think that it is easier to run, in that a DM has much less prep to do, both in background-research and encounters.
I had more here - MUCH more - concerning the kernel of truth in the above statement, but I deleted it all because it didn't contribute to this particular thread in any discernible way.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
The aspect of all of this that's(to me, at least) MIND-BLOWING is that Hasbro is essentially now in a neck-and-neck competition with its OWN IP:
No.
WotC created 3e - Hasbro would NEVER have created an 'open source' system. If we remember WotC fondly for anything, it would be that they gave D&D back to 'the people'. Richard Garfield didn't sell Hasbro anything he hadn't already given away (in regards to D&D, not MtG or the licenses they controlled).
I used to play a lot of 'counters' wargames back in the day, from both Avalon Hill and SPI. Hasbro bought Avalon Hill, and TSR bought SPI (and was in-turn bought by WotC), so now Hasbro owns both my favorite old-school wargame companies.
And they are doing almost nothing with them.
This is the fate I fear for FR and D&D. They buy entire companies for just one or two IPs, and then shelf the rest - and D&D isn't the reason they bought WotC; collectible card games was. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2011 15:28:51 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 15:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
For those interested, you can read Ryan's column here
Besides the starting post, the most interesting post is this one (IMHO, of course), talking about the current strategy of WotC. Ryan Dancey has a point, I think. |
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The future of 4E
