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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 10:28:20
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Just thought about it, among the books we mostly follow high level guys (and gals), and they appear VERY capable. and judging from many source/setting books an advanced encounter with whom ever wants to hurt you is about 9ish levelish.. which leaves me really non the wiser...
whats your reckoning?
(ps; i dont want to hear "the most common is lvl 0 commoner", thanks :)
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by D1Nonly
(ps; i dont want to hear "the most common is lvl 0 commoner", thanks :)
Why do you ask when you don't want to hear the answer? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by D1Nonly
Just thought about it, among the books we mostly follow high level guys (and gals), and they appear VERY capable. and judging from many source/setting books an advanced encounter with whom ever wants to hurt you is about 9ish levelish.. which leaves me really non the wiser...
whats your reckoning?
(ps; i dont want to hear "the most common is lvl 0 commoner", thanks :)
Disregarding the existence of the majority lvl 0 commoners, the next highest count of realm-persons would be level 1 commoners  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:36:54
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| thanks.. just.. thanks :) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 16:51:47
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| Even if you strictly do away with commoners, even the average level adventurer isn't going to be very high. Just like corporate hopefuls, the ranks start at the bottom. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Even if you strictly do away with commoners, even the average level adventurer isn't going to be very high. Just like corporate hopefuls, the ranks start at the bottom.
True. And those folks on the bottom get eliminated more readily than those at the top, so there's going to be more 1st level folks than 2nd level folks, more 2nd level than 3rd, and so on.
Plus, anyone can pick up and swing a sword, axe, or hammer. Being sneaky doesn't come as readily, being faithful and/or favored by a deity doesn't come as readily, and being intelligent enough to master magic is rather rare.
So among the adventuring classes, the average will be a fighter, either first or second level. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:12:06
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| I think its safe to say that its based on region and city. In cities, you'll find more level 7-12 level experts and aristocrats instead of level 1 commoners. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:45:54
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| Well, going by the "world-building" rules in the ol' DMG 3.5; you'd generally find out the highest levels of the various classes and then double the 2-level down counts (alas, I don't have my DMG with me, so I can't remember details). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 18:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think its safe to say that its based on region and city. In cities, you'll find more level 7-12 level experts and aristocrats instead of level 1 commoners.
How in the name of Lurue are you going to have a city with more nobles and experienced tradespeople than common laborers, sailors, farmers, children, housewives, and semi-skilled tradesmen? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 19:57:45
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If you want the Realms average folk to be about equal to our real life average folk there should be almost nobody that is not exceptional above level 5, and the majority of those should be level 1 or 2. The Alexandrian blog had a post before that explains it better, but basically in 3.5e a smith who is one of the best in the world at his craft can be created easily as a 5th-7th level expert, an olympic jumper(long or high) jumps as far on average as a 4th level character with full ranks in jump and a strength bonus, and so on.
Anyways, I prefer less powerful NPCs in my fantasy so in my Realms 95% of the people my players meet will be below 6th or 7th level, with only exceptional NPCs(and the players of course) being above that. |
Edited by - idilippy on 11 Jan 2011 19:58:58 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 11:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think its safe to say that its based on region and city. In cities, you'll find more level 7-12 level experts and aristocrats instead of level 1 commoners.
How in the name of Lurue are you going to have a city with more nobles and experienced tradespeople than common laborers, sailors, farmers, children, housewives, and semi-skilled tradesmen?
Even level 1 experts and aristocrats are outnumbered by commoners in places such as Waterdeep. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 12:22:03
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so the general concencus is level 0-1 no body's.
it was probably too broad of a question, in retrospect i would have asked what is the avarage level of an NPC adventurer/party?
so if anyone is still looking at this thread, disregard my OP. thanks :) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 13:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by D1Nonly
so the general concencus is level 0-1 no body's.
it was probably too broad of a question, in retrospect i would have asked what is the avarage level of an NPC adventurer/party?
so if anyone is still looking at this thread, disregard my OP. thanks :)
I'm gonna guess the average NPC party consists of the 4 core classes.
Level 1 fighter, level 1 wizard, level 1 rogue and level 1 cleric.
And on average, they last a few "encounters", either dying or retiring early. Then you have the very few who go on to level 2 and die or retire there. Then it's progressively more and more rare. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 14:33:09
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| strange then that some epic NPC's just pack it all up and goes Kurtz into some mountain/jungle tribe and just live out the rest of his life like a God. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 14:46:32
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I'm going with level 1 commoner. I'm sure some will find reasons why I might be wrong, but that's the benchmark I am going with. I mean, I would even be so bold as to say 99% of all common-folk in the Realms fit into this category.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 14:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by D1Nonly
strange then that some epic NPC's just pack it all up and goes Kurtz into some mountain/jungle tribe and just live out the rest of his life like a God.
No they are just tired of all the excitement and want some peace and quiet for a change.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:50:27
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As alot of my players are very experienced, so we typically start off with mid-level charaters. As I result I've always treated player-class NPC levels in a similar manner to IQ gradients.
Basically, Level 10 is Mr/Mrs Average, with levels 11-13 being someone with lots of skill or experience in their chosen field. Levels 14-17 are the truly talented individuals and level 18-20 are the really rare world class/olympic athlete types. Epic levels are epic :D
I'd say, go with your parties starting levels as the average (unless they started off as already standing out from the crowd) and then pyramid scale from there.
As for what the average NPC adventurer party in canon is? I guess it's around level 6/7. At least that's my impression. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 12 Jan 2011 17:53:56 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:56:14
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Best I recall some retired adventures, now innkeeper for example, were level 5 to 7.
It becomes extremely hard to estimate levels of all adventurers in the world at any time, clearly there are the 10th level and higher, however there likely are far many 1st levels that hope to win a realm, riches or even to own an Inn.
As some DMs know, many 1st level never make it to 2nd. That does not mean there are millions trying to get to 2nd. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 08:42:20
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| When you look at army discriptions in Sourcebooks you can see this good too. There are thousands of Level 1 Warriors, a few Level 2 ones and maybe a handfull level 3-5 officers. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 19:11:16
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I gather that first-level adventurers tend to die or get better quite quickly, so the distribution may well be a bell curve with modal average around 2 to 4. This wouldn't apply to soldiers, guards and other such class-and-levelled NPCs.quote:
Originally posted by D1Nonly
so the general concencus is level 0-1 no body's.
Non-adventuring low-level characters are unconditionally not nobodies in the Realms. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 16:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm going with level 1 commoner. I'm sure some will find reasons why I might be wrong, but that's the benchmark I am going with. I mean, I would even be so bold as to say 99% of all common-folk in the Realms fit into this category.
Totally agree. I once read an interesting approach to this issue in the DSA RPG (The Dark Eye). There the suggestion was, that a level 1 hero is already quite a lot above a commoner in terms of general preparation such as abilities and training, due to having a specific character class background (and thus history) like -let's say - mage, fighter, rogue etc. So a commoner would rather be level 0-1.
Apart from that I also subscribe to idilippys post regarding the expert levels for commoners. Good example. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 01:14:44
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I would say level 2.5 ?? would be average for all people of all ages. But i'm just picking a number. Most people don't do anything that would cause them to rise a level in my estimate. The majority of soldiers are level 1 warriors and only some are level 2 or 3.
I don't think 99% of people would be level 1 commoners. A higher proportion than that would be warriors, experts, aristocrats, etc. I would guess more like 75% of people are commoners? I don't know why though. Perhaps someone could extrapolate from the real world but idk. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 02:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would say level 2.5 ?? would be average for all people of all ages. But i'm just picking a number. Most people don't do anything that would cause them to rise a level in my estimate. The majority of soldiers are level 1 warriors and only some are level 2 or 3.
I don't think 99% of people would be level 1 commoners. A higher proportion than that would be warriors, experts, aristocrats, etc. I would guess more like 75% of people are commoners? I don't know why though. Perhaps someone could extrapolate from the real world but idk.
In third it really becomes hard to say, because you can have a Com 20 (a simple farmer). In 1st and 2nd of course there were 0 level NPCs which clearly brings the average down.
For the hero of Waterdeep (non canon) Lord Kentinal was the turning point of a siege granting victory to Waterdeep. Yes was a was a non official encounter.
To the discussion of levels, Kentinal's realm has a radius of 15 miles, a standing army of 10,000. To make economy work for basically a farming realm what was required was 50,000 farming families with a mere 10,000 capital resided families in of course to the before stated standing army.The numbers work as far as taxes and payroll costs by legalize prostitution, indentured service to pay civil finds and of course a few other levies. One can live well in the location of not breaking a law, even then they get some protection.
The army is structured in units of 1,000 with first rank above troop is in command of about 8. Ideally this Sergent or Corporal would be at least one level above troops. Of course higher ranking officers clearly should have even higher levels. While I have not stated out all officers clearly the Commander of the army should be at least level 10, the lessor offices clearly should be in range between level of troops and the commander. For my army, in order to have good command control, there exist 810 troops and 201 officers of various ranks to make up fighting force of 1,000 (actual number without loses is 1,011). Each can decide on what level of command (the number of troops under orders of a they want and set levels for command at 1, just high WIS or something like that for lower level officers.
The population is based in part of real world history and D&D rules in an effort to balance game with credible.
Oh I should add, I did calculate for farm, pleasure and war animals. Further I inferred average farming family had three children, that city families had average of 1 child.
Setting aside the possible level 20 farmer, you have some numbers of what is required to have a small, well defended, realm.
Reducing standing army could result in lower taxes. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 16:22:54
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What's the definition of "average" in this question?
Mean average would be close to the lowest level (0-1) ... assuming that all the cumulative character levels for the hundreds or thousands of "notable" NPCs is weighted against the many, many millions of nameless/faceless "0-level" NPC sorts. Median and mode averages would probably also be lowest level (0-1) ... again, these "0-level" NPCs represent the vast majority of statistic samples.
If the question is restricted to only "adventurer-class" sorts then the average (based on all the NPCs I've ever seen listed) is maybe around level 7-8; there's about the same number of NPCs at this level as at any higher or lower levels. Just my rough estimate, not a calculation. If the question includes monsters then the "average level/HD" is probably a bit lower; there's some big nasties (giants, dragons, etc) scattered throughout the Realms, but there are also countless millions of orcs, goblins, kobolds, wild animals, slimes and jellies, etc. Strictly speaking, the (1E and 2E) MM entries describe humans and most demihumans as typically being 0-level, though encounters tend to involve combat-oriented groups composed primarily of low-level grunts. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 23:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
If the question is restricted to only "adventurer-class" sorts then the average (based on all the NPCs I've ever seen listed) is maybe around level 7-8; there's about the same number of NPCs at this level as at any higher or lower levels.
But that's skewed by the tendency to describe, as you say, notable individuals and bands over the more numerous but less stable lower-level adventuring population. Also by the dubious nature of many published stats, such as the editor-added character levels in the Volo's Guides.
The population generally is no doubt mostly 0th or 1st level, depending on your scale. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 09:57:24
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A friend of mine on the Polish forums mentioned that the innkeeper in any given adventure usually is "level enough to beat the adventurers +1". 
That says something about the published statistics. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 07:44:24
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There are communities that are described in their entirety such as in the Silver Marches. There aren't many high level commoners. I can only think of a level 16 commoner in the Waterdeep book. I think one could extrapolate from that.
Although within a campaign you'd always have to have opponents powerful enough to challenge the PC's. . . the writing of the universe itself follows different rules = P I think this would deal with the universe not directly related to a campaign. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 12:52:38
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| This begs the question. What makes a commoner get to such a high level as a commoner? I can understand experts (mastering their trade), but commoners? The wise old man who learned much raising his kids I guess? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 14:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
This begs the question. What makes a commoner get to such a high level as a commoner? I can understand experts (mastering their trade), but commoners? The wise old man who learned much raising his kids I guess?
A favorite topic of mine.
The game is set up that increase in level is based on what is killed, however killing an orc does not make you better at tracking.
In reality, skills, thus experience, increase based of trying, learning and doing. The Com learns by killing wolves, tending animals, crafting and so on, this just in game session only earns ex. pts. for killing the wolf. You have more experience now then you had five years ago thus should be higher level then if you became a PC or NPC then compared to now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 17:03:55
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| Killing things is NOT the only way to gain exp. Exp. is gained from SUCCEEDING in an encounter, whether that be by killing, negotiating, driving off, or befriending a creature. There are many ways to resolve encounters- killing is just ONE of them. I'd expect a coomoner's exp comes mostly from haggling over prices for his crops, running bandits off of his farm, and other such tasks. In town, it might be making the best deals in his business, preventing thefts, making new contacts, or the like. |
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"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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whats the avarage level of a realm-person?
