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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 00:36:15
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i just re-read LOD, and got caught up in the wording for the destruction of nethril.. it said (not quoting directly) that karsus did not maintain the power long enough to fulfill his goal.
is there a newer book that contradicts this saying that it was doomed from the start? i feel LOD makes it a bit ambiguous in the sense of him gaining the experience needed to wield it properly was the issue, not the initial "snags".
any thoughts?
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 02:14:02
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| Well he wanted to replace the deity Mystryl as the deity of magic (since that was the next logical (or is it illogical?) step after basically ruling over the empire of Netheril), and during his brief stint as said deity did he realize the folly of that, since he was unable to control the weave. I think the divine knowledge (since deities are a lot more intelligent than mortals) of it having been a bad idea from the start filled his mind immediately as well. More details are contained in the adventure "How the Mighty are Fallen" not sure if it's available as a free PDF downlad? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 14:33:14
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| There is no contradiction. Karsus's attempt at godhood was doomed from the start. Netheril ruined the balance of power in the Realms. There's nothing and no one who could oppose their might. And had they had enough time, they could practically have made the entire Faerun their empire, including those lands held dearly by the elves. Their destruction restored whatever semblance of balance there was. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 18:27:21
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quote:
There is no contradiction. Karsus's attempt at godhood was doomed from the start. Netheril ruined the balance of power in the Realms. There's nothing and no one who could oppose their might. And had they had enough time, they could practically have made the entire Faerun their empire, including those lands held dearly by the elves. Their destruction restored whatever semblance of balance there was.
cosmic karma? nevermind that noice. i was just interested in other readers take on the spells "time-line". i thought it alluded that given a few more minutes karsus might actually have gained, if not complete control, MORE control than he had when mynstryl "sabotaged" it. but i might be reading too much into 'how' IT was written, instead of.. just IT :) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 19:21:18
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| Had Karsus used the Shadow Weave to empower his "heavy magic" and his spell, he might have succeeded in stealing Mystryl's divine essence. I even wonder why he didn't consider using shadow magic at all. Maybe he deemed it too weak compared to Weave magic? Or perhaps he was just confident that the Weave magic was more than enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 19:40:49
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Well, do remember that this was originally created in 2e when there was no shadow weave and shadow magic was just a subschool of the weave. So, it would have been a major retcon to say Karsus knew about the shadow weave......
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Karsus used the Shadow Weave to empower his "heavy magic" and his spell, he might have succeeded in stealing Mystryl's divine essence. I even wonder why he didn't consider using shadow magic at all. Maybe he deemed it too weak compared to Weave magic? Or perhaps he was just confident that the Weave magic was more than enough.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 20:05:12
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Hmmm...
My problem with the Fall of Netheril is not the fall itself, but Mystryl. The fall might be necessary for the the restoration of the balance of power in the Realms. But why should the goddess of magic play a direct role in it? Part of her duty is to "encourage" Faerunians to use magic, regardless of alignment. Why destroy an entire empire replete with powerful magic-users? She could have stopped Karsus without resorting to temporarily shutting the Weave down. Hiding in a plane even Karsus could not reach...seeking assistance from fellow deities...stealing his "heavy magic"...the possible ways are endless... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 20:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Hmmm...
My problem with the Fall of Netheril is not the fall itself, but Mystryl. The fall might be necessary for the the restoration of the balance of power in the Realms. But why should the goddess of magic play a direct role in it? Part of her duty is to "encourage" Faerunians to use magic, regardless of alignment. Why destroy an entire empire replete with powerful magic-users? She could have stopped Karsus without resorting to temporarily shutting the Weave down. Hiding in a plane even Karsus could not reach...seeking assistance from fellow deities...stealing his "heavy magic"...the possible ways are endless...
Let's see, why should the goddess of magic play a direct role in a situation that someone else decided to directly involve her in...? Encouraging the use of magic does not necessarily mean stealing divine power, and Mystryl didn't destroy Netheril -- it was Karsus taking her power that caused that. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 21:08:10
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| Heh, why doom an entire empire when only one (archwizard) is the problem?! She's not stupid, so I suppose she knew that by "shutting down" the Weave, she wouuld destroy the entire empire as the mythallars were all dependent on the Weave. There are several possible ways she could have stopped Karsus without dooming the empire. Three of which I already stated above. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Jan 2011 21:09:37 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 00:02:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh, why doom an entire empire when only one (archwizard) is the problem?! She's not stupid, so I suppose she knew that by "shutting down" the Weave, she wouuld destroy the entire empire as the mythallars were all dependent on the Weave. There are several possible ways she could have stopped Karsus without dooming the empire. Three of which I already stated above.
Well, Mystryl really didn't have the luxury of time. Yes, she was a god, but even gods can [and should] be pressed for time. Karsus struck at her in a way that few gods every truly experience. Thus, I imagine both the speed and unwelcome nature of the attack, didn't leave her all that much time to debate which option was best. She acted, perhaps on a purely instinctual level [given her intimate connection with the Weave], to protect the rest of the Weave from the devastation Karsus likely would've wrought. Sort of a... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -type scenario. |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 01:23:44
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| sheesh. this got off topic pretty fast :p |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh, why doom an entire empire when only one (archwizard) is the problem?! She's not stupid, so I suppose she knew that by "shutting down" the Weave, she wouuld destroy the entire empire as the mythallars were all dependent on the Weave. There are several possible ways she could have stopped Karsus without dooming the empire. Three of which I already stated above.
Well, Mystryl really didn't have the luxury of time. Yes, she was a god, but even gods can [and should] be pressed for time. Karsus struck at her in a way that few gods every truly experience. Thus, I imagine both the speed and unwelcome nature of the attack, didn't leave her all that much time to debate which option was best. She acted, perhaps on a purely instinctual level [given her intimate connection with the Weave], to protect the rest of the Weave from the devastation Karsus likely would've wrought. Sort of a... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -type scenario.
I'm not so sure about that "not having the luxury of time." The phaerimm gave her much time by directly attacking him when he rose to challenge her. Also, being the goddess of magic, she must have felt the strong presence of the "heavy magic" after Karsus retrieved it from the past. And surely, despite her "hectic" schedule as a goddess, she must have sent at least one avatar to look closely at everything Karsus had been doing since his retrieval of the "heavy magic," for she could not have ignored the presence of something so powerful that when put to ill use could doom not just Netheril, but a number of nations as well... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 01:20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh, why doom an entire empire when only one (archwizard) is the problem?! She's not stupid, so I suppose she knew that by "shutting down" the Weave, she wouuld destroy the entire empire as the mythallars were all dependent on the Weave. There are several possible ways she could have stopped Karsus without dooming the empire. Three of which I already stated above.
Well, Mystryl really didn't have the luxury of time. Yes, she was a god, but even gods can [and should] be pressed for time. Karsus struck at her in a way that few gods every truly experience. Thus, I imagine both the speed and unwelcome nature of the attack, didn't leave her all that much time to debate which option was best. She acted, perhaps on a purely instinctual level [given her intimate connection with the Weave], to protect the rest of the Weave from the devastation Karsus likely would've wrought. Sort of a... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -type scenario.
I'm not so sure about that "not having the luxury of time." The phaerimm gave her much time by directly attacking him when he rose to challenge her. Also, being the goddess of magic, she must have felt the strong presence of the "heavy magic" after Karsus retrieved it from the past. And surely, despite her "hectic" schedule as a goddess, she must have sent at least one avatar to look closely at everything Karsus had been doing since his retrieval of the "heavy magic," for she could not have ignored the presence of something so powerful that when put to ill use could doom not just Netheril, but a number of nations as well...
Eh. We really don't know enough about just how Karsus' attack worked on Mystryl. Or even how it truly hurt her. I can't imagine that it simply would've been a matter of fact for her, so that she could portion off a divine section of herself in order to handle the threat. Even gods have their limits. And I suspect that the Great Folly of Karsus demonstrated the divine limits of the [then] Goddess of Magic. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jan 2011 01:21:53 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 02:01:39
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As I am a fan of Karsus, I like the idea that his very might demonstrated the gods' limits...that archwizards should not be trifled with, not even by the gods...
However, that still doesn't make a "sound" excuse for having the Goddess of Magic directly involve herself in the wiping out of a magic-rich empire. We may not know the extent and true nature of Karsus's Avatar, but...as I've mentioned, there are possible ways she could have employed to "minimize" disaster. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 02:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
As I am a fan of Karsus, I like the idea that his very might demonstrated the gods' limits...that archwizards should not be trifled with, not even by the gods...
However, that still doesn't make a "sound" excuse for having the Goddess of Magic directly involve herself in the wiping out of a magic-rich empire. We may not know the extent and true nature of Karsus's Avatar, but...as I've mentioned, there are possible ways she could have employed to "minimize" disaster.
Again, Mystryl did not involve herself in the wiping out of an empire. Mystryl acted to save all magic -- and to do that, she had to shut down the Weave. Netheril was not her concern, all magic in all of Realmspace was.
You're making it sound as if she deliberately chose to kill thousands for the folly of one. That is not what happened. Netheril was doomed the instant Karsus cast his spell -- Mystryl saved what she could, which included three of the enclaves.
Karsus destroyed Netheril. That is his fault, and his fault alone. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jan 2011 02:06:49 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 02:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
However, that still doesn't make a "sound" excuse for having the Goddess of Magic directly involve herself in the wiping out of a magic-rich empire. We may not know the extent and true nature of Karsus's Avatar, but...as I've mentioned, there are possible ways she could have employed to "minimize" disaster.
As I said before, this is really just a "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -type scenario. As Wooly notes above, Netheril was already doomed from the moment Karsus cast his Great Folly. Mystryl simply sought to handle the fallout and limit as much of the devastation as possible.
And I can't agree with your claim that she was directly involved in wiping out a magic-rich empire. The Weave is intimately tied to all life on Toril. Mystyrl is directly involved in EVERYTHING magical. She didn't single Netheril out. It was just a part of her great and grand focus upon ALL magic in the Realms. A part that she couldn't help to save, because it was already doomed. So, instead, she sought to attempt to save the rest from the catastrophic fallout of Karsus' ambition. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 02:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystryl saved what she could, which included three of the enclaves.
And she could have saved more, perhaps all, had she a.)sent an avatar to watch closely on Karsus's experimentation the moment she felt the presence of "heavy magic," as it was a potential ingredient for realms-wide destruction, (and consequently would have learned of Karsus's plan and thus prepared for it); b.) sent someone, a lesser god or one or all of her trusted servants to steal the "stone" upon learning of Karsus's scheme; or c.) stolen it herself.
Really, it seems like we just have to agree to disagree on this matter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 11:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystryl saved what she could, which included three of the enclaves.
And she could have saved more, perhaps all, had she a.)sent an avatar to watch closely on Karsus's experimentation the moment she felt the presence of "heavy magic," as it was a potential ingredient for realms-wide destruction, (and consequently would have learned of Karsus's plan and thus prepared for it); b.) sent someone, a lesser god or one or all of her trusted servants to steal the "stone" upon learning of Karsus's scheme; or c.) stolen it herself.
Really, it seems like we just have to agree to disagree on this matter.
Ao probably forbade her from acting on it in such a fashion. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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D1Nonly
Acolyte
Norway
15 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 12:16:35
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quote:
Again, Mystryl did not involve herself in the wiping out of an empire. Mystryl acted to save all magic -- and to do that, she had to shut down the Weave. Netheril was not her concern, all magic in all of Realmspace was.
You're making it sound as if she deliberately chose to kill thousands for the folly of one. That is not what happened. Netheril was doomed the instant Karsus cast his spell -- Mystryl saved what she could, which included three of the enclaves.
Karsus destroyed Netheril. That is his fault, and his fault alone.
that was my initial question, for those who forgot :)
to quote some lines in pg.81 what really happened Karsus the arcanist decided to merge with mystryl, the Netherese deity of magic. The result was catastrophic. When his essence combined with Mystryl's, the deity lost the ability to maintain the Weave. The goddess sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damage became irreparable, but in so doing she temporarily obstructed the Weave, ending its connection with Faerun. Karsus was killed by the experience, just as he had predicted, but he did not gain Mystryl's divine power for a period long enough to weild it successfully.
the last line is what had me ask; but he did not gain Mystryl's divine power for a period long enough to weild it successfully.
that line seems to me like it counteracts the concept belived by most; that karsus' avatar was predestined to fail horribly.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 12:50:10
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I think if Mystryl had stepped in to keep Karsus from casting his spell and destroying Netheril, then people would instead be screaming about how she did a bad job letting mortals choose their own path, and that in blocking his free will, she kept him from the greatness he so obviously deserved.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 14:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystryl saved what she could, which included three of the enclaves.
And she could have saved more, perhaps all, had she a.)sent an avatar to watch closely on Karsus's experimentation the moment she felt the presence of "heavy magic," as it was a potential ingredient for realms-wide destruction, (and consequently would have learned of Karsus's plan and thus prepared for it); b.) sent someone, a lesser god or one or all of her trusted servants to steal the "stone" upon learning of Karsus's scheme; or c.) stolen it herself.
Really, it seems like we just have to agree to disagree on this matter.
Ao probably forbade her from acting on it in such a fashion.
I think not. Ao seems like a usually indifferent god. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 14:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think if Mystryl had stepped in to keep Karsus from casting his spell and destroying Netheril, then people would instead be screaming about how she did a bad job letting mortals choose their own path, and that in blocking his free will, she kept him from the greatness he so obviously deserved.
Well, I wouldn't be one of those people. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:15:00
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| It's possible that Karsus' research and casting of the spell was hidden from Mystryl by Shar. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
It's possible that Karsus' research and casting of the spell was hidden from Mystryl by Shar.
I like that possibility, even though my mind is screaming, "Shar, again?!!!" |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:40:50
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| The key is not to ever reveal that Shar was behind it, that's the old Shar. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:50:00
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| I like the theory of Shar being behind the fall of Netheril. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 16:00:23
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quote:
And she could have saved more, perhaps all, had she a.)sent an avatar to watch closely on Karsus's experimentation the moment she felt the presence of "heavy magic," as it was a potential ingredient for realms-wide destruction, (and consequently would have learned of Karsus's plan and thus prepared for it); b.) sent someone, a lesser god or one or all of her trusted servants to steal the "stone" upon learning of Karsus's scheme; or c.) stolen it herself.
Likely several of those ideas occurred to her after Karsus began sucking her divine essence out with a vacuum.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 16:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
quote:
And she could have saved more, perhaps all, had she a.)sent an avatar to watch closely on Karsus's experimentation the moment she felt the presence of "heavy magic," as it was a potential ingredient for realms-wide destruction, (and consequently would have learned of Karsus's plan and thus prepared for it); b.) sent someone, a lesser god or one or all of her trusted servants to steal the "stone" upon learning of Karsus's scheme; or c.) stolen it herself.
Likely several of those ideas occurred to her after Karsus began sucking her divine essence out with a vacuum.
After? Too late for her...
That would make her look like a stupid goddess, even if we consider the "gods' limits." (Or maybe she really was? ) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 16:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I like the theory of Shar being behind the fall of Netheril.
If she's behind it, she should have saved more enclaves to have more "agents." Or maybe she deemed Shade more than enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 16:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I like the theory of Shar being behind the fall of Netheril.
If she's behind it, she should have saved more enclaves to have more "agents." Or maybe she deemed Shade more than enough.
Maybe she has and we just don't know about them yet  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I like the theory of Shar being behind the fall of Netheril.
If she's behind it, she should have saved more enclaves to have more "agents." Or maybe she deemed Shade more than enough.
Maybe she has and we just don't know about them yet
Hmm. I'd like that. That would tie up to my theory that sooner or later Telamont would betray her, sever whatever "connection" they have as retribution for her grand design of having his wife killed. Those yet unknown enclaves she saved would act as backup when that time comes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Jan 2011 17:07:05 |
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Karsus time with the weave
