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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 23:05:04
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Well met fellow seekers after knowledge!
I have a conundrum. A player of mine...the notorious power-gamer, has just had a character die (M Dwarf Battlerager5/Bbn3/Ftr2).
In its place he's bringin' in a Cleric....but not just any cleric, A 10th level Cleric of Helm (no problems yet) from Arabel. This Cleric, however, is based around stretching 1st-3rd level spells to 24-hour duration!
In order to do this, he took FOUR Extra Turning feats...he now has a total of 26 turning attempts per day, and there are NO undead to be fought in the next few levels...which I have told him.
Through annoying rules-lawyering, he has made a cleric with zero offensive spells, who has a near-permanent stats block of DR 5/-, AC of about 30, Saves of +15,+10,+15, and is immune to all mind-affecting magic cast by evil creatures. Oh, and his normal weapons become Holy, Good, and Silver or Cold Iron depending on what he chooses for that day.
Also, he doesn't heal other folk, he wants to "defend others by defending himself".
I can't just boot him out of the game, and he is stubbornly insisting that I allowed this char. (he snuck it by me, not listing out 4 Extra Turnings, just writing a tiny "x4" in the corner after listing it once...)
So, as far as I can tell, my options are:
Find another player
Kill off his character straight out
Send wave after wave of so-called "grudge-monsters" after him.
What I really need is your advice on how to handle this with roleplaying and good story background.
So far, he's totally ignored the "Helm gives you spells, he's not going to give you that much extra divine power unless you plan on assaulting the Warlock's Crypt", as well as the "holding that much divine energy, you risk burning out your mind" and is just pissy about the fact that "Having that much pure divine might reneing every day, evil folk are going to try to capture you and keep draining it to empower their own magics!" (based on what the Sharran's did to the avatar of Mystra in The Temptation of Elminster)
So, what would you do?
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Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 00:19:25
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If the character build is within the core and any house rules you have, you should live with it.
As DM you should not target any character because of player decision. Considering your dissatisfaction with the character build you have a few options.
1) You can rule character out of order because of the X4 (or other concerns)that you did not notice in your first review, tell player to rebuild. That is revoke approval.
2) Double check that magic items acquired does not exceed wealth for level.
3) Have at least NPCs complain about "some healer you are", type thing.
4) You clearly can restrict access to spells and turning if the character falters from the faith, that is if he does something that Helm (in this case) does not approve of.
The more extreme options involve discussion with some or all the players.
5) Have a meeting discussing the skills and abilities of all the PCs, indicating that healing will become hard under the current proposed matrix (This of course depends on other members of the party).
6) Encourage other players to be far less careful of the well being of this PC.
Things not to do.
7) Do not engage in a rule battle with player, it is better to expel.
8)Do not write a campaign to kill the PC, even if you get character kill - there will be another. Further other players will become dissatisfied if the DM always appear to be trying to kill that Cleric.
There is no clear answer that can serve your game, others and I do not know the people or your gaming style. All I offer are some ideas that might work and ones I would try to avoid. In the end it just might come down to expel player.
Good Luck |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 00:36:55
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From my gaming experience, dealing with power players is always a pain... And if the player is a good friend of yours, the problem can be even greater.
They simply enjoy a different gaming style than me... And most 'ingame' solutions you take against them simply do not touch them...
You can try to beat them on their ground: the rules... But there they are more prone to outsmart you...
The only solution I found so far is to explain them what my playstyle is... It's me the DM in control of the situation because I'm the keeper of every player's fun, and I cannot be limited to deal with one overpowerfull PC! |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 01:25:46
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Thanks for the responses so far!
There is one thing I forgot to mention: The whole of this current adventure takes place during the Sharran ritual to destroy the weave in Shadowdale (Shadowdale: The The Scouring of the Land campaign module).
Perhaps with the fact that the weave is attenuating to the point of almost ripping asunder....
Well, again, any help you all could provide would be lovely! |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 04:20:36
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You said he feels he best defends others by defending himself... I'd have Helm start expressing some displeasure with the character's tactics, by sending manifestations and/or weakening his spells.
If that doesn't work, set up a scenario where the PC has to actively defend someone else -- when he fails to do so, he's failed his deity's teachings, and then it's very much your (Helm's) perogative to force him to atone.
At that point, I might even have Helm send a divine servant to reprimand the PC.
If all of that doesn't work, set up the scenario of defending an NPC again, and when he fails to do so and allows a second guarded NPC to die, Helm kicks the character to the curb -- no clerical spells/abilities at all until he either sticks to Helm's teachings or finds another deity. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 05:32:12
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One simple fix, just don't allow him to take the divine metamagic:persist feat. I assume that's what he's doing to get 24 hour durations on his spells, right? Oh, and also, each use of the takes 7 turn attempts, so he can "only" persist 3 spells per day. Of course, one problem is that he can just persist one spell(divine power) and beat the fighter or Paladin at his own game all day.
Maybe talk to him and point out that by making his character such a juggernaut he's overshadowing everyone else, and you want the game to be about all the characters, not just his. Also, you're perfectly justified in having Helm's servants reprimand him for being selfish with his protections, Helm is a guard of others not a guard of yourself. |
Edited by - idilippy on 09 Jan 2011 05:41:58 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 08:23:41
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Those feats were subject to errata.
You must be able to normally be able to Persist spells(6th or 7th level spell slots, so at least 11th level character),then you have to take the feat for each meta-magic feat you want to use it with. It's called a feat tax.
Or you could play his game with him, and build your own munchkin of Bane to kick him around... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 09 Jan 2011 08:31:16 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 14:16:55
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| Nice, I didn't know the errata changed it to making them be able to use Persist spells as a pre-req, though I knew about the specific divine metamagic feat for each metamagic feat you wanted to use it with. So there you go, he can't take that feat and your problem is delayed a level or 2. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 14:58:22
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From what you've said about his build, it's not broken or even Power-gamed, though it is Impossible
If he has taken Extra Turning x4, that would only leave him with one additional feat (if he's human). Now, if you've allowed him to take Flaws (from Unearthed Arcana) then that would allow for 1 or 2 more feats.
And For him to DMM (Persist) spells it would take 7 attempts for a 1st level spell. The Errata doesn't say that he has to be able to normally cast Persist Spells but there are Prerequisites for Persist Spell like Extend Spell feat.
So, For him to actualy make this build to work, he'll need to waste 3 feats (out of 5 if he's human) Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell] THEN take one or two Extra Turning. This would give him 3 + Cha mod + 8 attempts to turn. Also remember that if he has a Nightstick (from Libris Mortis) multiple nightsticks don't stack.
So once you make sure that he has the appropriate feat requirements for Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell] and that his uses for Turn Undead add up correctly, then I don't think this is a broken build at all. Divine Metamagic has allowed clerics to actually do stuff with their 1 (yep a whopping One) class feature. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 15:35:20
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Rules are meant to expedite a game, not hinder or completely stick it in the mud.
DMs fiat: just say no. Unbalancing the game for one player is a fun killer for everyone else, and your game hasn't even started.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 17:42:40
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| There's a domain that gives you Extended Spell as a bonus feat, which I'm sure this player took, so he's only one feat over what he should have, and maybe there's a domain that gives extra turning too that he qualified for or tried to sneak by. Also, I don't see turn undead as the one class feature of clerics, spells are the class feature of clerics. Also, when the cleric can trade a bunch of very situational turn undead attempts for a permanent divine favor or righteous might, and still have all of their spells for the day, that's a pretty great trade off, especially when it hinges on the fact that this player is using the OOC knowledge that he won't be facing undead to build this character. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 17:48:07
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What I want to know is which spells he's casting on himself to give his weapons all these special properties, DR, etc.
Also, her doesn't need to prepare cure spells since he can cast them spontaneously so no worries there. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 18:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
There's a domain that gives you Extended Spell as a bonus feat, which I'm sure this player took, so he's only one feat over what he should have, and maybe there's a domain that gives extra turning too that he qualified for or tried to sneak by.
The Domain is Planning, though I don't know if Helm has access to the Planning domain. I know the Red Knight does. Even if he did take the Planning domain, he'd still need to spend 2 feats for Persist and DMM (Persist) and that leaves 3 for Extra Turning.
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Also, I don't see turn undead as the one class feature of clerics, spells are the class feature of clerics. Also, when the cleric can trade a bunch of very situational turn undead attempts for a permanent divine favor or righteous might, and still have all of their spells for the day, that's a pretty great trade off, especially when it hinges on the fact that this player is using the OOC knowledge that he won't be facing undead to build this character.
True, aside from the cleric's spellcasting they have turning/rebuking, but that's it. So a player well versed in Clerics is going to spam out that class feature to do multiple things with it. This is regardless if he knows he'll fight Undead or not. And this is why Divine Metamagic feats are really great. Also, there's nothing wrong with taking Multiple Extra Turning feats as it says This in it's description:
Special: You can gain Extra Turning multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.
So what's the problem here? And honestly, he may be able to persist some potent 1st-3rd level spells but that takes a TON of turning attempts. Even with 3 Extra Turning = 12 + 3 + Cha mod. (we'll say 5) + a Nightstick (+4) = 24 turn attempts. Casting 1 Persisted is still a standard action and takes 6 turn attempts automatically + spell level! So he'll only be able to do this approx 3 times a day (with a 1st level spell) or one 1st level, 2nd level, and 3rd level spell.
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Edited by - Diffan on 09 Jan 2011 18:04:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 18:08:12
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This reminds me of something from my old gaming group... There was this guy named Eric, who was not known for his role-playing acumen.
In one campaign, he played a cleric. I wasn't a part of that campaign, but I heard about it, later -- mainly thru the song the others made up about him.
Set to the tune of "Harvey the Wonder Hamster":
Eric, Eric, Eric the Wonder Cleric!
He doesn't fight, and he doesn't heal,
He just runs around with clerical zeal!
Eric, Eric, Eric the Wonder Cleric!
Hey, dumba**! |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 18:24:51
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First of all, you made the mistake of letting your player control you instead of making everyone at the table equal, with DM as the final say in any matter. As DM, you have the power of veto. As of now, your player is walking all over you and you're letting him.
Second, I have a player with a Favored Soul that has the alternate class ability to turn undead (but sacrificed out his Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats for it) so he can turn undead as a Cleric 2 levels lower. He saw the Persistent Spell + Divine Metamagic combo and was planning on it.
I said go ahead. Why? He ends up becoming a one-trick pony. First, he's only going to be able to use it on, the most, 3 of his spells. Next, he's no longer as versatile since he's burning 3+ feats to pull that off. He's also not going to be effective at turning undead at all. Finally, he's not immune to Dispel Magic. All it takes is one successful Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, and his persistent effects are done. Learn to set up dispelling traps, enemies that can cast or use magic items to dispel magic, and magic-eating or dispelling monsters more often. If you're in a high magic setting, that means for as much magic as there is, there will be just as much counter-magic because the enemy or the victim is going to want to find every method possible to foil magical attempts to do them harm.
So what you need to do is send undead encounter. And NEVER tell your players what's going to happen in your adventures! They WILL metagame. Meaning, they will base all their decisions on the knowledge given to them outside of the game world. The fact that you told him there's no undead coming up just gave his character the omniscient ability to know there's no undead coming so he wrongfully prepares his magic as if the character knew there were no undead coming into his life soon. Keep your adventures outline to yourself!
What I see is a clear case of inexperience as a DM and, hopefully, you learn from this experience and are able to put your foot down as a DM and learn how to steer the game into a RPing game and not a roll-playing game. If you have those types of players in your games, maybe it's best to switch to an edition of D&D they can't ever break apart --- 4th Edition. That edition was built to give players the "illusion" of being munchkins, but it's all balanced out in the end and the DM still has full power over his games. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 18:28:28
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| Oh, and someone else did point it out, but he's a Cleric. Meaning, his deity (which is you) grants him his divine spells to carry out the deity's will upon the world. His "creed" of defending himself so he can properly defend others is a twist to Helm's creed that I am positive Helm would frown upon. The next time he goes to pray for spells, don't give it to him. State that his character isn't receiving his divine magic from his deity and it's probably because Helm is not approving the Cleric's methods of carrying on his creed. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 20:34:20
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| There's an inherent weakness to the persistent spell cleric: dispelling. Just install various *wall of dispel magic* and have NPC casters hit him with targeted dispels. When the buff spells get zapped, he can't recast them till the next day, which makes him (basically) a second-rate fighter. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 20:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What I see is a clear case of inexperience as a DM and, hopefully, you learn from this experience and are able to put your foot down as a DM and learn how to steer the game into a RPing game and not a roll-playing game. If you have those types of players in your games, maybe it's best to switch to an edition of D&D they can't ever break apart --- 4th Edition. That edition was built to give players the "illusion" of being munchkins, but it's all balanced out in the end and the DM still has full power over his games.
This was true of 3rd edition, as well; until about 1000 supplements came out. I'm guessing that the same thing will happen to 4E.
Having said that, I respond (in 3E) as a DM by only allowing 4 books to be used in character creation: PHB, DMG (for magic items), FRCS, and the 'Complete*' book for their class. If the player wants to use something else, I will look it over very very closely before allowing it, and I've never been shy about forcing the player to 'undo' a class combination that makes a PC too powerful. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 21:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What I see is a clear case of inexperience as a DM and, hopefully, you learn from this experience and are able to put your foot down as a DM and learn how to steer the game into a RPing game and not a roll-playing game. If you have those types of players in your games, maybe it's best to switch to an edition of D&D they can't ever break apart --- 4th Edition. That edition was built to give players the "illusion" of being munchkins, but it's all balanced out in the end and the DM still has full power over his games.
Well, as a DM I normally help my PCs in character creation. I advise them on good options and poor options. I try to be as bi-partisian as possible when it comes to crunch over fluff, mainly because my players like to feel important during battle. Combat, for us, is pretty consistant and happens often.
That being said, even 4th edition isn't immune to Munckins and broken combos and/or exploiting loop-holes. The boost 4E gets is constant, on-line and quarterly Errata. If something from a DDi article pushes the envelope for "brokeness" it usually gets Errata a few months later. Or when a supplement comes out with some new options, like the Battlerager Fighter technique, it often needs some errata to fall in-line with options of that same class.
That being said, the whole "DM says No!" mentality is something that I completly abhore. They should come to an agreement as to what the Player can play but just because the DM doesn't necessarily agree with it, at least hear the PC out on his decisions and go from there. Swift and harsh decisions often leads to confrontations over something silly and objective. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 22:06:32
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DM fiat is often the only thing that will work with a true powergaming min-maxer. With regular gamers, you can confer about what would be appropriate, even agree to some leeway or bending rules. I don't think anyone is recommending a swift or harsh decision when dealing with a regular gamer.
Games have to be enjoyable for everyone in the game, including the DM. If you let a powergaming min-maxer argue over minutia, you're letting them take over the game and that's not fair to anyone else. It's the DM's job to arbitrate the rules, not be bound by some broken combo, loophole, or bit of errata that they haven't seen.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 00:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
From what you've said about his build, it's not broken or even Power-gamed, though it is Impossible
If he has taken Extra Turning x4, that would only leave him with one additional feat (if he's human). Now, if you've allowed him to take Flaws (from Unearthed Arcana) then that would allow for 1 or 2 more feats.
And For him to DMM (Persist) spells it would take 7 attempts for a 1st level spell. The Errata doesn't say that he has to be able to normally cast Persist Spells but there are Prerequisites for Persist Spell like Extend Spell feat.
So, For him to actualy make this build to work, he'll need to waste 3 feats (out of 5 if he's human) Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell] THEN take one or two Extra Turning. This would give him 3 + Cha mod + 8 attempts to turn. Also remember that if he has a Nightstick (from Libris Mortis) multiple nightsticks don't stack.
So once you make sure that he has the appropriate feat requirements for Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell] and that his uses for Turn Undead add up correctly, then I don't think this is a broken build at all. Divine Metamagic has allowed clerics to actually do stuff with their 1 (yep a whopping One) class feature.
I was at work when I posted that.
That was my houserule.
If he wants to tax himself to use a class feature then go for it.
I would throw a prepped baddie using the same trick, but also using the caster level buff trick... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 01:41:18
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You fail too see all the possibilities that go into slapping a
power gamer off their perch. Level-draining undead, outsiders
that know he is a "chosen one" who must be killed for their take
over of the world, (yeah, tell a power gamer that all the Underworld
is trying to off him and see him wet his pants.) Cursed magic items,
heck, I killed of 3 pc's in one night by having them just fight
underwater! Traps that deposit him in a pit filled with 15 feet of
green slime.
Get creative man! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 03:11:44
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| There's a simple solution to this problem- powerful (read: level-draining) undead an/or magic dispelling. Another fun tactic to use would be to simply sic hordes of hid-level fighters on him (with a baddie in the back who recognizes him as the biggest threat yelling "kill him!"), and simply beat him into submission while going lighter on the others in the encounter. As long as it's not used all the time, it's not really "unfair targeting". But seriously, the best way to break a power-gamer of doing this sort of thing is to pit him against unexpected foes or situations where his munchkin-build is near useless. When all is said and done, it will be more fun for everyone in the long run because he'll realize (if he's smart) that power-gaming tactics do not add anything to the game, and that all his specialization has made his PC a drag on the party. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 10:51:58
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quote:
DM fiat is often the only thing that will work with a true powergaming min-maxer. With regular gamers, you can confer about what would be appropriate, even agree to some leeway or bending rules. I don't think anyone is recommending a swift or harsh decision when dealing with a regular gamer.
Games have to be enjoyable for everyone in the game, including the DM. If you let a powergaming min-maxer argue over minutia, you're letting them take over the game and that's not fair to anyone else. It's the DM's job to arbitrate the rules, not be bound by some broken combo, loophole, or bit of errata that they haven't seen.
I agree that everyone should have fun at the table, but the thing is the Cleric isn't breaking any rules or even bending them in any slight way. While I agree that the Persist/DMM Persist route is sorta powerful, it's not game breaking. I've always gone the Quicken/DMM Quicken route because I feel casting spells as a swift action is more important that those spells being on 24-hrs a day.
Anothing thing to note is that this is a published adventure and just throwing in random Outsiders might not make sense. I'm currently playing the Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land right now and there are some Undead that the PCs fight including a Lich. The DM might want to have the Lich come in earlier and cast Enervate or some such spell to really weaken the Cleric OR when the start fighting Drow, have him go up against the Priestess of Lloth. My character was turned into a Dryder for a good portion of that battle (to my utter suprise and lament, lol) and it was only a lucky Caster Level check and a Dispel Magic that saved me.
Maybe the question isn't the build but the spells allowed. Allowing every willy-nilly spell ever to be created might be a bit much, espically when those classes (Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger) know them automatically. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 13:03:07
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I was re-reading the OP's 1st post and I realized that Saves such as +15/+10/+15 isn't that hard to obtain for a cleric by 10th level. As he reaches level 10, he'll have base scores of +7/+3/+7. Add in ability modifiers, and you can easily have +10/+5/+11 plus additional spells such as Greater Resistance or even magical items like Vest/Cloak of Resistance and you can get Saving throws near to what the PC has.
As for AC, my fighter has an AC of 29 and that's without any spells cast on him. 1 feat (Shield Specialization) gives him +1 Shield bonus in addition to his +2 heavy bashing spiked shield of return (+5 shield bonus). Then add in +3 fullplate of Spell Resistance 13 which he takes of of a creature in the adventure (+11 armor). +1 Dex mod, amulet of Natural Aromr +1 (+1 natural), and the often seen ring of protection +1 (+1 deflection) and there ya go, AC 29. And even with an AC of 29, I still get hit farily consistantly in that campaign.
Still, I'd like to know what spells are giving him DR 5/- and allow him to switch his weapon property from Good/Silver/holy, etc... The immunity to Evil casters mind-affecting magic is just from Protection from Evil spell and can be dispelled with a successful Caster Level check, (DC 21) |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 14:38:47
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Basically, it seems like, he's used all of his cleric spells to make a him a nigh-invulnerable rock. He might possible proof your group against a TPK, but other than that I don't seem him being too much of a real threat, here.
The only real difficulty that I see is keeping him challenged while not outright slaughtering the rest of the group. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 16:54:37
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The problem is not necessarily the saves, or even the AC- it's the fact that he's so close to invulnerable that it's not even funny, and is lessening his over-all usefulness to the group in the process. Who ever heard of a cleric that won't heal? That's not just ridiculous, it's selfish gaming. Trying to out-do everyone at the table by being the most powerful PC in the group (even if it's within the rules) is not good for the group. So what if he survives when everyone else gets killed? That just means everyone else will be resentful because he did not try harder to keep his team alive. when all is said and done, D&D is a game about COOPERATION, not competition. He is obviously not being a "team player".
Of course, if you really want to teach him a lesson, let him use all those turning attempts to makes his spells last, and then just multiply the number of undead in the adventure to the point where he discovers that pesistant spells MIGHT not be such a good idea after all. That cleric of Lolth could easily just keep raising her dead minions as undead, after all...... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 17:05:59
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Right up front: I would *not* suggest punishing the player or gunning for his character with the idea of hosing him during play. That’s. Not. Cool.
It’s impractical to think this solution will work for every encounter. The player will come to realize you’re picking on him and that’s when the animosity starts.
…
3E is a great system that—like 2E before it—got more and more rules-heavy as time went by.
Yes, DMs are supposed to know the rules. But it’s impractical to expect a DM to purchase, read, memorize and understand every rule from every splatbook.
This is where the players come in.
For my game, I told my players that their job was to understand the rules unique to their character, as well as any rule from any splatbooks that I hadn’t seen or read yet that they owned and wanted to use to tweak or optimize their character. That expectation was firm.
In exchange, I agreed to let them use any rules from any D20 sourcebook, with the understanding that if the build was too unbalancing during play, we’d work on a houserule to balance the mechanic they were using.
So if a player’s build seems overpowered (as your player’s build did at first glance), the easiest way to check is to look at the prereqs for the feats he or she wants to use. If some of those prereqs are not met, politely remind the player that he’s wasting everyone’s time by not doing his job, i.e., building a character according to the rules.
If it happens again, that’s cheating in my book. I don’t game with cheaters.
If his revised build is within the rules, then give the player’s build the respect his efforts deserve. He’s made the character that he wants to play with, so run your game and see how it goes.
If the character still seems overpowered, work together to tweak the mechanics. If not, game on. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 10 Jan 2011 17:15:28 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 17:29:14
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*Ahem*
I was not suggesting "gunning for the character" per se, but simply working around the player's build to highlight its disadvantages through adventure situations, for the purpose of discouraging him from continuing in such a manner in the future. although, there are times (trust me, I've dealt with this on occasion) when you simply have to get a little nasty to teach a rule-bending or game-breaking player to stop hogging the spotlight with uber-powerful combos. The "locate-city bomb" comes to mind, here. I for one do not allow players to walk all over the rules or the game just because they think it's "kewl" to play some kind of munchkin with nigh-unstoppable abilities. There comes a time when you just have to either completely disallow a particular character, force a rebuild, or simply let him keep playing and, er, reap his just deserts for poor foresight. Then again, as a DM, I tend to adjust my games to the players invovled anyway, so if there's a munchin on the table, I let 'em have it. Not surprisingly, most players do not do it more than ONCE. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 17:44:52
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Yeah, but it seems here he is mostly defense with not much offense, so it's not much of an encounter killer. He's still going to get fireballed to death in the end.
I find it useful to have a person survive when most of the party gets wiped out and it seems as if that is all this guy really can do - he made a cockroach. He can go back to town and rouse the rescue party.
DR 5 isn't that intimidating after 10th. And monsters' to-hit is going to outpace his AC before too long anyways.
If I was playing alongside of him, I'd just max out my roleplaying and occasionally take advantage of knowing I've got a human-sized rock that is nigh invulnerable.
I've had rogue characters in my games that became essentially unhittable for their level, but they'd sacrificed a lot of offense to get that. As a result, they stand there holding one guy at bay the entire fight. This can be good strategy, but often gets unfulfilling for them.
I don't actually enjoy running clerics, so maybe I'm not fully getting this. I'm also used to playing in groups with 5-6 characters. Usually we're saddled with at least 2 clerics. But, I've also felt that everyone is, in the end, responsible for keeping themelves alive. Zhents, Shades, Drow - they always targeted our healers as it was.
Really, this cleric is just choosing to fill the tank role and not the healer role. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:23:21
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Allystra: my apologies. My post wasn’t directed at you or meant to be critical of you.
I was responding to the advice given by our fellow scribes that some form of in-game punishment was in order for the OP’s player.
That’s legitimate advice. Like you, I agree that this method can deliver a powerful message that players won’t easily forget.
However it’s just not what I would do in this situation because (from what little we know of the OP’s player) the punishment doesn’t fit the “crime” of min/maxing.
Unlike you, I think it’s inappropriate to plan encounters with the sole purpose of discouraging a player from maximizing one class trait. I’d rather challenge a character’s supposed deficiencies to see how the player and the other party members react to them.
Some parties work together and come up with creative solutions; helping get the I-spent-all-my-feats-and-gold-on-mounted-combat-Paladin’s mount in and out of Undermountain or the cramped spaces of the Underdark, for example (under 3.0 rules).
Other groups might rib the player in question and given him a hard time. That’s fine too, since the player has the option when he levels up to pick different feats (or to retrain them) and/or classes to better fit in with the party.
I’m not saying you or anyone else in this scroll is wrong. I’m just trying to show how I do some things differently at my gaming table. One of those things is to let issues of character balance work themselves out amongst the players during play sessions before deciding to weigh in as DM. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 10 Jan 2011 18:27:13 |
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A Power-Gaming Cleric...should this be allowed?
