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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 19:23:38
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Well, I must admit that I enjoyed Elminster at the Mage Fair quite a bit. I still can't abide by Elminster as a character, however, but I've already been down that road.
As far as Lurker's question, I didn't really have a chance to think about the proposed arguments...most of which I hadn't seen until last night.....
In response to the now-infamous "curve-ball" remark I made...yes, as with ANY Forgotten Realms character, Elminster has been in some very unconventional situations (it's not every day that you go to hell, battle a lich, or act like a woman, etc.). However, the character has remained stagnant since he became the mage we know today.
IMHO, I think that a "curve ball" might include Elminster having to perhaps reshape his attitudes, change his personality a bit, grow as a character, as ALL people do - even near-omnipotent archmages. So far, according to the Faerun supplement (page 7), Elminster's "changes" have been limited to "starting to seem truly old, prone to long reveries...(etc)." However, this does not seem to me to be a great deal different than the Elminster we knew in Crown of Fire or any other of his previous novels. I don't think that having strange adventures in a setting based on strange places is a new, interesting idea - it's a requirement. Archmage Elminster has always been Archmage Elminster - with very little evidence to the contrary.....I always thought that his relationship to the Simbul was fairly interesting - but still, we saw a lot of beard-scratching and pipe-smoking...not much new there...
Not to say that it's Greenwood's job to impress me and me alone, but I'd love to see Elminster become desparate(not just worried - the guy barely flinched after he toasted that lich in Magefair), or scared, or irate, or broken, or tired, or perhaps exhibit some signs of mortality.....because he's human - a Chosen, but human nonetheless...
But as I've said time and time again, that's just me....
And Lurker - why haven't you spoken up until now?
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 21:24:27
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| Broken...desperate...signs of mortality. Have you read Elminster in Hell, Arion? |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 22:27:08
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To Greenwood's credit, no. Someone on the site actually (Rad?) posted a review saying that E in H was a lot of explosions and fire and had very little else to go on......looking at the previous works, I decided to skip E in H....
I don't know...if the good Lady Arivia thinks its worth it, maybe it deserves a look or two... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 22:55:02
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No accounting for taste, quite. I don't agree with the 'your criticism means nothing until you're published' argument, but I didn't like your (however jocular) comments about wanting characters stabbed or coming up with 'Faerūn' and ripping off Tolkein (sic), either, as you can understand.
I don't know who PL and Malcolm are, but they don't know who I am, so that's OK! Feel free to share hair-tearing stories.
Arion, since you don't like Elminster and apparently don't like Ed's novels, I don't recommend you read Elminster in Hell! But the 'review' you refer to is very wide of the mark: alongside Cormyr and Evermeet, EiH is easily the most ambitious Realms novel to have been published, a psychological battle played out with memories (which works something like an epistolary novel) which move as a thematic rather than a linear narrative. Like The Spine of the World it goes out on a limb and some have disliked it for that reason; and while I have my own criticisms, it shows so much of the Realms (so partly avoiding the problem of overexposing Elminster since, remember, Ed never wanted to use him as a protagonist) and El's internalities are so, I can unambiguously say, dedicatedly done that I'm quite out of sympathy with anyone who dislikes it. Elminster in Hell is the proof, the plain flowering, of Ed's thematic use of the character as an avatar of the combination of love and knowledge which began those years ago. |
Edited by - Faraer on 30 Oct 2003 22:55:26 |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 03:47:54
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Arion, I think you should read Elminster In Hell. I'm not saying you'll like it, but (as Faraer and Lady A have posted) I don't think any reasonable person can say Ed Greenwood hasn't shown us Elminster in a lot of different ways (including desperate, scared, weak, and getting thoroughly beaten up) after they've read that book. Really. Borrow a copy from a public library if you don't want to spend the cash.
Now, I know Ed used to read these forums when they first started up, so he might end up reading this, eventually. So why not tell him exactly what you think is bad/weak about specific novels he's written, as if he WAS reading everything? He might find it useful. And no, I'm NOT being snide or sarcastic here. Every opinion counts. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 16:11:35
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Really guys, I don't know...
Faraer said: No accounting for taste, quite. I don't agree with the 'your criticism means nothing until you're published' argument, but I didn't like your (however jocular) comments about wanting characters stabbed or coming up with 'Faerūn' and ripping off Tolkein (sic), either, as you can understand.
I don't get what you mean by my "criticism argument"...I think that you are actually agreeing with me...sort of......and I'm sorry that I offended by my "stabbed" comments...but we are talking about non-existent characters aren't we? I understand...most folk would have hissy fits if someone said that Drizzt deserved to be disemboweled...
As I said previously, this thread has brought such a tremendous uproar of opposition from BOTH sides of the argument, I may as well buckle down and read E in H, despite my better judgement...
as I must admit that in my younger days I simply hated the Avatar Trilogy...after looking at it a second time nearly a decade later, I have come to love it...I suppose I can give the man who gave us Faerun no less.
There. Now I can take my armor off?  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 31 Oct 2003 16:12:34 |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 02:42:54
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Arion,I for one am proud of you for trying to be open minded and work things out with Faraer.I know others were involved but it started with you two.I guess this is none of my business but since I think so very much of both of you,I really am glad to see the disagreement end.
I look forward to reading posts made by both of you and increasing my knowledge for having done so. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Shandril
