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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:50:26
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The only (or greatest) deterrent to Thay's ambition of conquering Aglarond is the Witch-Queen herself. Now that she's gone and Tam and the Red Wizards know it what or who is keeping them from taking the necessary actions? I understand some of Tam's resources are being used elsewhere to erect the Dread Rings. But isn't Aglarond the best place for the DR's, all things considered? If not, once Tam successfully annexes it to Thay, he would possess far more resources for his greater goals. That alone is worth a try to conquer Aglarond.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 02 Feb 2011 11:22:51
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 06:10:34
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I think the only thing holding Szass and the (exiled) Zulkirs in check is their own internal divisiveness. Those dirty little Rashemi and their meddling witches are still tough enough to defend themselves against skirmishes, but probably not against a concentrated coordinated effort. There's also those Star Elves, I think ... they might oppose Thay.
I think if Szass decided to annex the region and marched his undead legions over the border he might take (and replace) some serious losses but be essentially unstoppable. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Dec 2010 06:12:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 06:15:43
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| Agreed on those last four words. Not that I am underestimating Aglarond's military power, but it has been mentioned in several novels that 'tis Alassra and Alassra alone who discourages Thay to conquer her realm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 08:31:14
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| He is a scheemer, so I guess he is planing or allready implenting his big master plan where everyone else sees the big picture too late ;) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 08:10:13
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Ed answered the question in the OP: NDA!
We can only speculate. Fellow scribes, can you think of someone or something that could effectively deter Thay from conquering Aglarond? We can't blame it to the zulkirs' division anymore, as there's only Szass Tam left. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Dec 2010 14:40:31 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 09:12:05
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| Well, arrogant as the Simbul can be, I can't see her leaving Aglarond in such a way that her sudden absence would leave it vulnerable I could easily imagine powerful wards and contingencies all over the country, set to be triggered in the case of a Thayan invasion, that would either go off on their own or be triggered by someone who "has the key", as it were. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 12:24:39
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Well, there's the rest of the Simbarch Council, and any survivors from Mystra's Chosen or the Seven Sisters. And, as mentioned before, that annoying little civilization of extra-dimensional Star Elves who hang out in the region.
There's also plenty of sturdy stock from which a new hero can emerge: the Simbul's Children (her apprentices), refugees (and Reds, and Zulkirs) from Thay, dragonborn, genasi, other circus freaks, and even hordes of elves in every offensive flavour you can imagine (but none of the acceptable drow and daemonfey types). I wouldn't be surprised by a hippy Chosen of Selūne (or even a grim Chosen of Kelemvor) appearing out of nowhere to rally the good guys and challenge Szass-Bane's power.
I imagine Mulhorand might object to Thay going Hitler all over the neighbourhood. Even the Shades might attempt to influence things (or directly intervene) against Szass; though that would drag the Shar-Mask-Lathander love triangle into the conflict. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2010 12:28:18 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 15:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
Well, arrogant as the Simbul can be, I can't see her leaving Aglarond in such a way that her sudden absence would leave it vulnerable I could easily imagine powerful wards and contingencies all over the country, set to be triggered in the case of a Thayan invasion, that would either go off on their own or be triggered by someone who "has the key", as it were.
Wards and contingencies cloaking the entire country are good, but, I think, are not enough. I can't imagine them to last long against Thay's barrage of spells and swords without the Simbul herself.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well, there's the rest of the Simbarch Council, and any survivors from Mystra's Chosen or the Seven Sisters. And, as mentioned before, that annoying little civilization of extra-dimensional Star Elves who hang out in the region.
There's also plenty of sturdy stock from which a new hero can emerge: the Simbul's Children (her apprentices), refugees (and Reds, and Zulkirs) from Thay, dragonborn, genasi, other circus freaks, and even hordes of elves in every offensive flavour you can imagine (but none of the acceptable drow and daemonfey types). I wouldn't be surprised by a hippy Chosen of Selūne (or even a grim Chosen of Kelemvor) appearing out of nowhere to rally the good guys and challenge Szass-Bane's power.
I imagine Mulhorand might object to Thay going Hitler all over the neighbourhood. Even the Shades might attempt to influence things (or directly intervene) against Szass; though that would drag the Shar-Mask-Lathander love triangle into the conflict.
I also entertain the idea of Shade's intervention. The present Thay is already a threat to them; how much more if it manages to annex Aglarond. The bigger the country and the more resources it has, the greater is the threat it poses. Telamont doesn't need to use the full power of his entire city to fight Tam; he can just send a considerable number of Sembian forces, and possibly recruit some Red Wizard refugees with the promise that once Tam is removed from his throne, he'd let them rule Thay unopposed.
Rashemen, I think, might ally with Aglarond. If not the wychlaren and the majority of Rashemen, at least the durthans and their loyal lackeys and drugged sellswords might. Anilya, a former ethran and now a durthan, once said in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts that the best way to protect their realm is to annihilate those that threaten their land. The durthans will see Aglarond and Thay's war as a good opportunity to rid themselves of their immediate, long-standing problem: the Reds.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 23:09:12
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I'm not certain about Rashemen. Have they allied with Aglarond before? Beyond a shared enmity with Thay they have little in common. I think that if Thay marched off to war with Aglarond, Rashemen would rather attack ("poorly" defended) Thay instead of bothering to assist Aglarond.
I might be wrong - my knowledge of Thay's ignorant/useless neighbours is a bit weak. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 23:59:57
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| With the wychlaren, the possibility is less. But with the durthans, 'tis very likely. And I believe they are capable of amassing enough and competent forces to aid Aglarond. The durthans themselves are excellent necromancers. So Thay's edge - necromancy - might be not that much of an edge any longer. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 00:12:18
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Well, if you really look into Necromancy spell lists you'll see a lot of spells which affect living things (good for Thay), a lot of spells which create or augment undead (good for Thay), and not very many spells which weaken or destroy undead (good for Thay).
What you need to fight off hordes of undead are priests and paladins, and a goodly amount of damage-capable sword fodder. Necros are ironically ill-suited for fighting against undead.
Do ye think there's any chance Azoun will charge off on his golden stallion, deploy the griffon stealth-bombers and war-wizard commandos to "liberate" Aglarond? Azoun seems willing to bring overkill military/magical might on whatever crusade against evil is necessary to police the map of Faerūn. Then again, I'm a bit of an Azoun-hater, I kinda love him as much as you love Manshoon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 00:31:24
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| Cormyr's too far and have no special relations with Aglarond. Besides, if they preoccupy themselves with Aglarond's war with Thay, Shade will seize that opportunity to rally Sembia's forces against the Purple Kingdom. So the possibility that Azoun would give an all-out support to Aglarond is close to zero. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 01:05:05
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I'm not sure if I follow your logic.
Are you applying the 3e Thay to the 4e Aglarond? The two never co-existed. 
Thay's previous 'ambitions' are no longer applicable. The Red Wizards were ambitious, and they are no longer around (at least not in the sense they were). Szass Tam has always had higher goals.
The situation you are inquiring about never existed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 02:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not sure if I follow your logic.
Are you applying the 3e Thay to the 4e Aglarond? The two never co-existed.
Thay's previous 'ambitions' are no longer applicable. The Red Wizards were ambitious, and they are no longer around (at least not in the sense they were). Szass Tam has always had higher goals.
The situation you are inquiring about never existed.
Have you read The Haunted Lands?
Tam's primary goal is to raise the DR's so he could perform the great ritual that would enable him to ascend to godhood. He needs a land for them, and Thay is already not an option because the Rings he erected there can no longer be reused. Conquering Aglarond makes sense, specially that Alassra is now gone, and seems to need more time - a lot of it - to lick her wounds. With Aglarond in his grasp, Tam could easily build the DR's in it; or if he deems another land or realm is more suitable, he could still use Aglarond's resources to seize that realm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 02:26:16
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At the same time, Szass probably won't want to go far from Thay - at least not personally - because of his Bane-granted "powers" ... I think the negotiation only applies within Thay's borders. Although I suppose borders can change.
Most of Szass's workforce is composed of necros and undead these days. Do people still live in Thay? Szass could probably avoid a lot of annoying interference from foreigners and the living by just building his DR 2.0 on some ocean floor. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 02:29:35
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This assume that Thay believed the Simbal is dead, and not faking or turned into something else (undead, immortal, dragon, etc) which wizards have been known to do. As a chosen of Mystra, she would have access to magics with such effects.
So they might still think that even a 'dead' Simbal could bring about troubles unless all proof is given on this event. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 02:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
At the same time, Szass probably won't want to go far from Thay - at least not personally - because of his Bane-granted "powers" ... I think the negotiation only applies within Thay's borders. Although I suppose borders can change.
Most of Szass's workforce is composed of necros and undead these days. Do people still live in Thay? Szass could probably avoid a lot of annoying interference from foreigners and the living by just building his DR 2.0 on some ocean floor.
Those who have read Gauntlgrym said that Tam has established a DR in the Sword Coast. Why go that far when there's Aglarond which is just a stone's throw away?! I don't know if he's already met resistance from the denizens of his target land, but I'm nearly certain he would, if he hasn't yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
This assume that Thay believed the Simbal is dead, and not faking or turned into something else (undead, immortal, dragon, etc) which wizards have been known to do. As a chosen of Mystra, she would have access to magics with such effects.
So they might still think that even a 'dead' Simbal could bring about troubles unless all proof is given on this event.
Alassra's absence has been far longer than usual. So Tam must have already an idea what happened to her---if not dead, severely wounded as to be incapable of returning to her throne. A good chance for him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 03:01:19
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I haven't read Gauntlgrym but I have to say my initial response to that detail is one of disapproval. Is Szass just going to keep on popping up at random places on his grand tour of the Realms, predictably allowing the local heroes to thwart his new variation of the build-my-dread-rings-and-destroy-the-world plan, again and again?
I think I smell the first whiff of inexorable villain decay. So sad, we already have stinkers like Manshoon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Dec 2010 03:04:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 03:29:54
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Assuming there really IS something or someone who deters him from seizing Aglarond, I think that land in the Sword Coast is his best option left. I wouldn't say he's just popping up at random places. Remember, he's a great schemer. He wouldn't have been where he is now had he been foolish and erratic. My main concern is the answer to the question: who or what keeps him from conquering Aglarond? Ed already hinted at future novels that might deal with it. Perhpas E.G. Presents Aglarond, or Alassra's own trilogy; or maybe Tam's own series. Or, how I wish, the Return of the Zulkirs.
So far, I think I have to agree with Sandro, on the matter about the wards and contingencies...
Maybe Alassra and her trusted servants had fashioned several wards that act like a mythal, engulfing all of Aglarond. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 03:50:48
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Maybe the only thing keeping Szass from conquering Aglarond is that it's useless to him. Failed Dread Rings might "contaminate" a large area and need to be spaced far apart from each other for best chances of success. Or the sites could require something unique or peculiar to given locations.
Szass could be systematically covering Toril with the damned things, same idea as in Thay but on a planetary scale. It could indeed turn out his plan is utterly unstoppable, since even destroyed DRs might suit his purpose and anchor a corner of some multiplanar dread web once they've been "activated", their continued existence might be optional. It could even be that Szass's Dread-World-Ring is hard for most people to implement in a 1000 year timeframe, a little inside joke between him and Bane. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Dec 2010 03:56:33 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 04:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Maybe the only thing keeping Szass from conquering Aglarond is that it's useless to him. Failed Dread Rings might "contaminate" a large area and need to be spaced far apart from each other for best chances of success. Or the sites could require something unique or peculiar to given locations.
That's an interesting possibility. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 06:01:54
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The Taan (you know - that immense, open region with NO unified gov't and thousands of miles of life-rich terrain) is right next door! Why the hell is he going all the way to the Swordcoast? You know... DEEP into Harper/Chosen territory...
Does someone have a contractual arrangement with him to fight Drizzt? 
Apparently the last of Tam's brain rotted away at some point between logical 3e and Kewlio 4e. 
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Have you read The Haunted Lands?
Tam's primary goal is to raise the DR's so he could perform the great ritual that would enable him to ascend to godhood. He needs a land for them, and Thay is already not an option because the Rings he erected there can no longer be reused. Conquering Aglarond makes sense, specially that Alassra is now gone, and seems to need more time - a lot of it - to lick her wounds. With Aglarond in his grasp, Tam could easily build the DR's in it; or if he deems another land or realm is more suitable, he could still use Aglarond's resources to seize that realm.
So Tam wants to conquer a land NOT because he wants to conquer a land, but because he needs to?
At what point in time did Szass Tam visit Athas and learn how to become a defiler? Is that how he is casting magic in 4e?
He needs to stop listening to Kiaransalee and tear a page out of Vecna's book - ruling a dead-world is BORING.
I should send Larloch over there to smack some sense into him... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2010 06:02:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 08:35:55
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| I don't think 4E bashing is necessary to explain Szass's target selections. I suppose more details can be gleaned from Gauntlgrym. THO's (usual) sly evasiveness about NDA involvement suggests that Szass (and his evil plots) will quite probably be featured in future novels/sourcebooks. I'm of the mindset that Szass wants to conquer everything, everwhere ... but he's playing a more complex game and doesn't care about proper "opening moves" or "taking losses" since such things are inconsequential when compared to complete victory. Good Chess players don't throw their pieces away for nothing but they're more than willing to "spend" their material to gain advantages which may appear intangible (even incomprehensible) yet inexorably progress toward the final objective of capturing the enemy King. They say the winner gets the battlefield, which works out quite well for Szass because no matter how messy the Pyrrhic victory might be he can still make use of all the fallen (friends, foes, and random victims) in his undead armies. |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 16:43:11
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Tam wants to conquer or rule nothing. He wants to ascend and recreate everything by his own will.
The conquering just happens beause he needs the land for his ritual. |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 17:38:24
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If Tam's trying to ascend, never discount the idea that some gods may be trying to stop him. Heck, maybe even Bane is working against him, not wanting yet another rival for power.
For some reason, though, I can't get out of my head the idea that Tam, Elminster and Alassra will form some new pantheon of magic, as the new Velsharoon, Azuth and Mystra. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 19:51:40
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| Yep there are a lot of more powerfull beings than Tam who would wack him if they got aware of his plans |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:03:27
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Just Eeeeeewwww - the thought of that makes me throw up a little in my mouth. Turn Tam into Vecna? They couldn't come up with anything original for FR?
And that trio becoming 'gods of magic' would drive me away from the setting for good.
OOPS... shouldn't have said that... now I KNOW they'll do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I don't think 4E bashing is necessary to explain Szass's target selections.
Sorry, old habits die hard.
Its just that he was always so clever (unlike 'baddies' like Manshoon), and the decision to use a parcel of land so FAR from his base of operations makes little sense, UNLESS you count RW editorial decisions. He is going there NOT because it is the smartest thing to do, but because that's where some author needs him to go. The believability factor goes right out the window; Szass Tam is now behaving like the Zhents of old, and will end up looking like a clown. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 23:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm of the mindset that Szass wants to conquer everything, everwhere ... but he's playing a more complex game and doesn't care about proper "opening moves" or "taking losses" since such things are inconsequential when compared to complete victory.
Conquering lands is not an end, it's just a means for his ultimate goal.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just Eeeeeewwww - the thought of that makes me throw up a little in my mouth. Turn Tam into Vecna? They couldn't come up with anything original for FR?
Just because his ambition is to become a god of undead, of roaches, of worms, or whatever does NOT mean he is going to be so. Remember, the price of the ritual is complete annihilation of Toril. I don't think WotC is stupid enough to destroy an entire world an entire setting of numerous novels for one being's ambition. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 02:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I don't think WotC is stupid enough to destroy an entire world <snip>
Ummmmmmmmmmm...
Nevermind. 
Still, the only reason why he wouldn't turn to the easily-accessible and hero-free Endless Wastes is because that is Mark Sehestedt's current 'playground'.
So he decides that the Sworcoast - on the far side of Faerūn and LOADED with hero-types - is his best bet for success? I suppose he also cools off by taking a dip in a volcano, eh?
I don't think those are dread-rings, I think they are dread-locks, and he's been "smokin' too much of the spliff, Mon". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 02:31:50
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| The problem is szazz tam is a character with limitless potential, And characters with limitless potential are fickle beasts to predict! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 02:58:40
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I think the classic Heartlands of Faerūn (Cormyr-Sembia, the Dales, the Moonsea, the Sword Coast, the North, the Anauroch) have always enjoyed a place of prominence in the Realms. Many scribes know of once "exotic" places like the Moonshaes, Evermeet, the Lands of Intrigue, the Shining South, evil Thay and the Wastes, and the Hordelands; some scribes also know of exotic Chult, Halruaa, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Maztica Returned Abeir - and other places far beyond.
Realms literature needs to "touch base" with the Heartlands now and then (a setting that all Realms fans find readily familiar) to keep both the lands and the fans "up to date" with current happenings on Toril. Szass's seemingly random and senseless choice of expanding to the Sword Coast (instead of annexing the pitifully mewling weaklings who border Thay) helps serve this purpose and can be canonically explained as necessary for any number of reasons. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 03:03:44 |
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Now that the Witch-Queen is gone.[Pos. Spoilers]
