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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 20:53:43
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Nobody can get access to "every spell ever" - not even Elminster, nor Larloch, nor Karsus, nor elven High Mages, not even specialty/prestige priest-mages of Mystra. Well, maybe Azuth can cast "every spell ever", that's his job. There are too many specialty spells which require wizard specialization; you can't possibly be a specialist in "every" possible school. There are also many spells unique to priests of various religions; again, you can't possibly worship "every" possible deity. There are many spells unique to particular factions or races which are too secret and aggressively protected to gain outside of being a member of "every" one of them.
Having said that, yes, you can gain access to a bewildering number of spells/magics through the means described above, Gavin. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 18:18:13
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@Gavin: Here I post one little suggestion, and let the powergames begin. Rock on! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 18:41:08
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| It's not illegal if the DM allows it ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 21:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, there is a conversion section at the back of the 2nd ed Complete Bard which states that they must first reach at least 5th in fighter, then change to thief before 8th, and change to druid by 9th level in 1st ed. They must do this before progressing to the 1st level in bard. (pg 122, Appendix).
The Complete Bard rephrases the 1e text in a manner that makes things less clear. To quote the exact text from the 1st edition PHB:
"Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical tutelage."
Emphasis in original.
They are trained by druids after their time as a thief, but they are not druids. They never gain levels in the druid class; after their time as a thief, they gain levels in the bard class. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 22:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Nobody can get access to "every spell ever" - not even Elminster, nor Larloch, nor Karsus, nor elven High Mages, not even specialty/prestige priest-mages of Mystra. Well, maybe Azuth can cast "every spell ever", that's his job. There are too many specialty spells which require wizard specialization; you can't possibly be a specialist in "every" possible school. There are also many spells unique to priests of various religions; again, you can't possibly worship "every" possible deity. There are many spells unique to particular factions or races which are too secret and aggressively protected to gain outside of being a member of "every" one of them.
Having said that, yes, you can gain access to a bewildering number of spells/magics through the means described above, Gavin.
The most realms-centric of the above is your basic "Cheater of Mystra" build, a Magic/Rune/Knowledge Cloistered Cleric of Mystra, going into Dwoemerkeeper and Divine Disciple. The way they get access to arcane spells are the spells "Anyspell", "Greater Anyspell" and "Miracle". Miracle lets this particular character cast any spell of level 7 or under, as a supernatural ability, as a standard action, in an antimagic field, without expenditure of XP or material components or anything like that to power it... so, yea, at least for spells of 7th or under, this character gets any of them he or she wants!
And here's a question... for 3.5e, going through the PHB, Dragon Magic, Spell Compendium, PHB II, Libris Mortis, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, and Complete Champion, which, between them, have most of 3.5e spells... which spells in this are supposed to be rare?? The DMG basically says that at a big enough town, you can get any of these spells, because the metric to determine rarity of a spell is based on scroll price, which is based on spell level. How do you determine, as a DM, which spell isn't in actual circulation, then? There are at least HUNDREDS of spells between all of these books, maybe even thousands! |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 12 Dec 2010 22:53:59 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 23:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Gavin: Here I post one little suggestion, and let the powergames begin. Rock on!
Cheers
Now you're talking my language!!! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 00:49:09
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Spell availability is a topic that makes my head hurt. A fighter (or gishy fighter/mage with some collection of useful spells) with a good weapon, good armor, and excessive specialization in hurting people is just so much more sensible.
Lots of guidelines and systems have been offered before - ultimately each DM makes the call.
I personally maintain a list of all spell names (so far) seen in my campaign, along with very brief notes: which page of which rulebook, school(s), and basic availability to the players (Common/Uncommon/Rare/Very Rare/Unique), etc ... it was a bit of work in the beginning, but only takes a few minutes to edit/print every few months, when it gets too messy or my players enter a new play region. I like having instant indexes for "where and in which book", removes a lot of delays. I wouldn't bother with the effort if it's a temporary or transient campaign or the PHB rulebooks are "good enough" for the needs of the DM/group. I've seen other DMs force every skill, feat, spell, power, or magical item to be typed/written on little index cards and normally disallow having any open rulebooks on the table, again to streamline play; it makes handing out new toys much faster and forces the players to learn/powergame the rules on their own time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Dec 2010 00:53:00 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 02:54:16
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Spell availability? There is a thread for that in here somewhere. Can't remember the topic title off-hand. Sage, can you help with that? Or anyone who actually remembers where that thread got to....
As for the bards in 1st ed- the conversion in Complete bard says Almost exactly the same thing, except that it says "Sometime between5th and 9th level, bard must leave the thief class and BECOME a druid-" (emphasis is mine) instead of "begin clerical studies as druids". It does go on to state what See quoted about being bards under druidic tutelage, but the difference in wording is so slight it's almost immaterial. The point was that they HAD to take the druid CLASS to become a bard, even if they were not actually "druids". The reason for this is that the origial bard class was, as someone mentioned, based more on the ancient Celtic bards, who were actually druid initiates. Bard was (and still is, for those who know about modern druidism) the first tier of study to become a full druid. The next level above it was Ovate, and then Druid. The role of bards changed between 1st ed and 2nd ed, to reflect the later bardic tradition of wandering musicians and news-carriers, as well a spies, rogues, and actors. That's why the shift occurred. But the original concept in-game was based on the earlier history. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 03:13:02
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The 1E bard model wasn't bad, and it made bards more "special" (and rarer, seeing all the prerequisites they had to meet). It was an awful exception to the already unworkable dual-classing rules ... a 1st level bard gets a flat 50 hit points? What if he already had more or had less? He also "forgets" all of his fighter/thief abilities and progresses as dictated by his new class? Non-humans can't be bards (not even elves or half-elves)?
So it was good und also bad. The 2E style "bard is just another class option" lost some flavour but was much better implemented.
Bards are interested in performances, folklore, useful and interesting jack-o-trades stuff ... they're expert dabblers, it makes no sense for them to specialize in arcane magic, it makes no sense for them to be denied divine magic. They're basically generalists with a musical theme. A little healing is not at all the same thing as sacred ceremonies and raising the dead. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 03:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Spell availability? There is a thread for that in here somewhere. Can't remember the topic title off-hand. Sage, can you help with that? Or anyone who actually remembers where that thread got to....
Yea, I remember posting about it a few times but the thread title escapes my memory at the present moment.
Anywho....what I'm going to do is when a town's size is displayed (from the small hamlet to the big city) I believe there is a chart in the DMG about magical items in stock. A larger city (say Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate) would have loads of magical items, scrolls, etc...but a small town or hamlet (like Glister north of Melvaunt) would have maybe a +2 weapon of some sort and possible a few spell-scrolls above 3rd level.
As for what specific spells would be available (this is where that thread comes in handy) I'd say spells from the PHB and PH2 are pretty well known through out the Realms. Specific spells with names attached to them like Knauper's Skittish Nerves, Elminster's....., or Larloch's Minor Drain (took that from the BG games ) would be more rare, regardless of level.
It's basically up to the DM to determine what spells he'll allow in his games. For example, if a wizard/fighter/spellsword wanted to add Wraithstrike to his spells list, I'd be fine with it though I might have the spell be harder to locate because it's pretty powerful for a 2nd level spell. I would not, however, allow a class such as the Duskblade, Beguiler, or Warmage access to such a spell. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 04:54:39
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| Well the general consensus in the other thread was that PHB spells (in general) would be common, although the higher level ones would be uncommon (5th to 7th) or rare (at 8th or 9th), and any spell from other books would be uncommon or rare, with most spells with a creator's name attached (Simbul's Synostodweomer from this thread being a prime example) being rare or unique to the caster and personally trained apprentices. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 15:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well the general consensus in the other thread was that PHB spells (in general) would be common, although the higher level ones would be uncommon (5th to 7th) or rare (at 8th or 9th), and any spell from other books would be uncommon or rare, with most spells with a creator's name attached (Simbul's Synostodweomer from this thread being a prime example) being rare or unique to the caster and personally trained apprentices.
Yep, that's the way I'm treating them in my Heroes of the Moonsea campaign. I found in the DMG that the size of the town/hamlet/large city manipulates how much GP the town has readily available and this also calculates the highest costing weapon/material the area has to offer. So a Hamlet which has (i believe) 200 gp probably wouldn't have any masterwork weapons or armor and magical scrolls probably wouldn't exceed 1st level.
This can be played with, of course, so that maybe the town is limited to 200 gp but there's one sword on display that has been found or forged that's the "prize possession" and of a value much, much higher than normally listed. Same could easily go for magical scrolls, potions, etc... |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 15:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for the bards in 1st ed- the conversion in Complete bard says Almost exactly the same thing, except that it says "Sometime between5th and 9th level, bard must leave the thief class and BECOME a druid-" (emphasis is mine) instead of "begin clerical studies as druids". It does go on to state what See quoted about being bards under druidic tutelage, but the difference in wording is so slight it's almost immaterial. The point was that they HAD to take the druid CLASS to become a bard, even if they were not actually "druids". The reason for this is that the origial bard class was, as someone mentioned, based more on the ancient Celtic bards, who were actually druid initiates. Bard was (and still is, for those who know about modern druidism) the first tier of study to become a full druid. The next level above it was Ovate, and then Druid. The role of bards changed between 1st ed and 2nd ed, to reflect the later bardic tradition of wandering musicians and news-carriers, as well a spies, rogues, and actors. That's why the shift occurred. But the original concept in-game was based on the earlier history.
That would be me (as bolded), and I wanted to thank you, AI, for your analysis and historical/contemporary anecdote.
Suffice it to say, as was my original point, the bard class--since the beginning--has been a hodge-podge of spells, skills, and abilities, and it should come as a surprise to no one that they can do a little offensive magic, a little healing, and a little bit of everything else. And while certain mechanical systems (notably 3e and 4e) have made the attempt to delineate bard magic as "arcane" in nature (in order to fit it into the system), it shouldn't really be that clear-cut.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 17:16:11
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The chart in the DMG is what I referenced earlier... lots of problems stem specifically from that chart!
Here's why:
Every city of 2001 people and up has almost every 8th arcane level spell ever in scroll for ready sale.
Every city of 5001 people and up has basically every arcane spell in scroll form except Wish for ready sale.
Every city of 12,001 people and up has basically every arcane spell ever in scroll form ever for ready sale.
And every DM that *doesn't* use that chart is basically using house rules, which generally needs to be mentioned before the players roll up their characters, as in, "Hey guys, to keep Wizards from getting so crazy, I'm drastically limiting the number of available wizard scrolls for ready sale in this game. Magic mart stuff is therefore mostly gear for melee-centric people, as a general rule." |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 13 Dec 2010 17:19:17 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 02:41:23
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Actually, my main character is a mystic theurge. With the rules in
Epic Handbook, he is Wiz3/Clc3/Archm5/MysticTh17 Corellon Larethain. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 03:36:38
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| You're quite welcome, Erik! Always glad to help clear up confusion or otherwise contribute to a discussion. I've never really understood shoe-horning bards into arcane magic, myself. Given their use of "force of personality" for their spells, it seems like more of a cross between arcane and divine. In otherwords, they can use divine magic BECAUSE they are "blessed" in some way with a strong force of will. (Think about it- they use their music to make things happen through sheer will, usually without much study. As long as they are aware that a particular effect can be achieved, they can perform it, most likely by tapping into the cosmic resonance of the multiverse. To me, that smacks of some divine or cosmic connection to the fabric of creation.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 03:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Actually, my main character is a mystic theurge. With the rules in
Epic Handbook, he is Wiz3/Clc3/Archm5/MysticTh17 Corellon Larethain.
No early entry methods used? I thought everyone who had access to Internet and posts on D&D forums regularly that chooses to play a Mystic Theurge uses one of the, like, eight main methods of early entry?
[/tease]
;) ;) |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 14 Dec 2010 03:39:37 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 03:42:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As long as they are aware that a particular effect can be achieved, they can perform it, most likely by tapping into the cosmic resonance of the multiverse. To me, that smacks of some divine or cosmic connection to the fabric of creation.)
Well, that sounds like your Bard has Words of Creation, if you fluff them as doing that! That's the default flavor... but what if you want to change the flavor of the character, and just separate 'his job and life path and career' from the mechanical abilities? Or is that something not appropriate for FR characters? Bard is a *really* good fit for having non normal flavor, since it is such a skillful class, and the abilities are so varied... |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 14 Dec 2010 03:49:20 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:01:29
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| Ah, not so much Words of Creation- more like the underlying tones that allow those words to work- I had posted on here a while back about "music of the spheres", and there is the 3.5 PrC Seeker of the Song that uses bars from the "Song of Creation" to access greater powers. I tend to adhere to the theory that music is the universal language, and I've run across recordings of radio-waves from other planets that sound eerily like a cosmic symphony. With so much natural "music" in the cosmos, I figure it's a perfect "source" for bardic music! They can pick up on it and use its power to fuel their spells, perhaps. That's really what I was getting at. Just an idea, mind you- but it's a lovely way to explain how they can use both arcane and divine magic- they are tapping into the "source" of both. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:09:35
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FYI, by Words of Creation, I meant the feat from Book of Exalted Deeds.
Also, it seems like the general consensus here is that completely throwing out the default flavor of any class, and just using whatever classes happen to describe the abilities of the character you had in mind, ignoring the main flavor of the class in favor of using their crunch and numbers to show what your character can do is, uh, frowned upon here?
Like someone who has a charaacter where they are dipping in 6 or so classes to get the numbers to follow the concept they have in mind, and ignoring the normal flavor for any of those classes? That sort of thing is frowned upon here?
Also, I'd be interested if anyone took a reply to the earlier message I had in this theme, with the ignoring the default flavor of Bard, or even anything musically oriented, and just using the class to describe something that you wouldn't think as 'Bard-y', like a gruff, scarred, not overtly magical at all, veteran commander who yells orders to his squad? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 14 Dec 2010 05:17:11 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:17:52
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| FYI I just edited my post, so give it a re-look... |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:26:44
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| No, I don't think most people do that. I for one never look at the "crunch" of a class unless I think it adds something to the flavor of what I'm doing with the character. For a prime example, my current Bard is very much musically inclined, but is also very heavily combat-oriented with a peculiar style that uses dance. Thus he is a bard/dervish, with some minor dipping into the Spelldancer and Virtuoso lines for his abilities, but only so far as those abilities pertain to his chosen path. In other words, I had a definite direction in mind for playing him, and took classes that ADDED to that flavor, rather than just for the cool "crunch" and numbers. Honestly, when it came down to it, I finally just decided to do a homebrew class for him (I call it "battledancer") to describe exactly what it is that he does. But the bard/dervish line basically describes it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 05:58:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, I don't think most people do that. I for one never look at the "crunch" of a class unless I think it adds something to the flavor of what I'm doing with the character. For a prime example, my current Bard is very much musically inclined, but is also very heavily combat-oriented with a peculiar style that uses dance. Thus he is a bard/dervish, with some minor dipping into the Spelldancer and Virtuoso lines for his abilities, but only so far as those abilities pertain to his chosen path. In other words, I had a definite direction in mind for playing him, and took classes that ADDED to that flavor, rather than just for the cool "crunch" and numbers. Honestly, when it came down to it, I finally just decided to do a homebrew class for him (I call it "battledancer") to describe exactly what it is that he does. But the bard/dervish line basically describes it.
Well, what I'm trying to say *seems* similar to what you are saying: Using the crunch and rules that happen to support what I have in mind for my character, damn the written down flavor for those classes! I come up with the flavor for my character, and use the rules in front of me however they line up best to do it! Whether it is more powerful or less powerful, whatever follows the concept best. Do you understand what I am trying to say, at least? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 06:48:36
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| You mean coming up with your own concept for the class as opposed to what's written? Well, isn't that sort of the point of role-playing? The "flavor" as written is intended as a starting point- nothing more. It is not meant to apply to every bard or paladin or ranger out there- just a very general idea of what the class is about. Your mileage may vary, of course, and so it should. Otherwise, all PC's would start to look alike after a while- which I think is why #.5 became so popular. It allowed players to customize their PC's to what THEY wanted in them, not an arbitrary and possibly clicheed standard for that class. No one wants their fighter to be just like every other fighter, and the kits from 2nd ed, and to a greater extend the feats and PrC's of 3rd, made that possible. So using the basic "flavor" as written in the rules is just a jump-off point for creating the individual PC. I don't think anyone here is specifically against sticking to the basic flavor of a class, but let's face it- that makes for very boring cookie-cutter PC's! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 08:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You mean coming up with your own concept for the class as opposed to what's written? <snip>
I mean Radical departures. Like, the classes on your character sheet are, ohhh, Warblade2/Bard6/Marshal1 (or whatever), but you just play him as "Sarge", and always have him yelling all the time, and have him not obviously have overt magic -- ie, his cure light wounds is slapping someone and saying, "Suck it up, you pansy!" or something, with no overt magical effects, and he is shouting orders, providing, say, a +4d6 damage to everyone in combat (from that dragonfire bard thing), and his series of pre-fight buffs are all flavored as just impassioned speeches. You know... RADICAL departures from the flavor of the classes... |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 08:42:00
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| Hmm, I don't really see that as too radical- just a different style of playing it out. Keep in mind, the rules are not really there so much for the "flavor"- that's fluff- but for the "crunch" of mechanics. How it is actually IMPLEMENTED is up to the player and DM. All the rules do is tell you WHAT a class can do, not HOW they do it. That's up to your imagination. If you want a bard that uses speeches to deliver his buffs, that's perfectly within the flavor and core concept of the class. Not all bards sing or play instruments- some are actors, poets, or orators! It's basically the same for ANY class. There is a core concept, but how it is played out is up to the game group. (If you want your barbarian's rage to be the equivalent of "Hulk smash!", so be it. Same for that monk's stunning fist being like the old sound effects from Batman in the 60's show. I actually used that for a monk I play.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 08:42:08
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Hmmphf. Shouting is a valuable skill and an art form, far more than amateurish "yelling". With practice, it adds a little basso profundo and a delicious growly manliness to your voice. Make those underlings pay attention!
German and Orcish are known as the finest shouting languages. Not at all restricted to any particular prestige class. Now I wonder if Power Word spells can be shouted at multiple opponents, or perhaps broadcast through a PA system, the very thought makes me giddy, heeheehee. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 14:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You mean coming up with your own concept for the class as opposed to what's written? <snip>
I mean Radical departures. Like, the classes on your character sheet are, ohhh, Warblade2/Bard6/Marshal1 (or whatever), but you just play him as "Sarge", and always have him yelling all the time, and have him not obviously have overt magic -- ie, his cure light wounds is slapping someone and saying, "Suck it up, you pansy!" or something, with no overt magical effects, and he is shouting orders, providing, say, a +4d6 damage to everyone in combat (from that dragonfire bard thing), and his series of pre-fight buffs are all flavored as just impassioned speeches. You know... RADICAL departures from the flavor of the classes...
I'm not really sure if I'd call that Radical either. I mean, the stats/rules/crunch are purely that, just stats. I think the concept of a character is better defined and determinded on how you play them, not the mechanics that get you there.
For example, the character you mentioned above has magical properties that allow him to do certain things like cast cure light wounds. I'm all for re-interpreting that to be a shout of encouragement and a slap on the back to give the extra HP. It's not within the description of the spell, but that matters little. As long as the effects are the same, and the effects follow the rules then description or fluff can be greatly altered.
But I'm one for separating crunch and fluff. One does not, nor should not, rule the other and it took me a while for me to grasp the fact that just because your feats, spells, class features all favor the rules and combat doesn't mean that you have to role-play that character with that attitude.
I also have to thank 4E for putting more emphasis on this separation as well. There was a really interesting article in Dragon this month about re-flavoring Powers and fitting the style of those powers to match your character's theme or ideals better.
A simple, but good example is when a wizard casts Magic Missile. Instead of the usual "magical bolts of energy leap from your hands..." it could be fantastic like "shards of sapphire spring forth from your outstretched fingers, cutting deeply into your opponent's flesh" or "Screaming skulls fire forth from your hand, striking your opponent and attempt to eat their way through it's body." All of these have the very same mechanics, Keywords, etc... but have very unique flavor that might appeal to a wide variety of arch-types. |
Edited by - Diffan on 14 Dec 2010 14:44:47 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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What is the lore reason Arcane Magic can't heal?
