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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:34:11
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Hi there, in 3.5e, it's fairly hard to get MOST arcane magic to be able to heal -- for example, you have to be a bard, or use some very very obscure wizard spells to be able to do some healing or quasi-healing, or you need to use one of the obscure tricks to give you a domain or increase the list of arcane spells to include some (mostly divine) healing spells, and other weird things like that. In other words, its not *intuitive* to be able to heal with Arcane Magic, either via the RAW or in the setting itself.
Anyway, I was wanting to know, what is the lore reason why there isn't a lot of Arcane based healing magic in the realms? What is keeping it mostly segregated into the realm of Divine magic? There is some in world reason for this, right? If this is some agreement between gods of magic or something, what is the precise agreement, or what is the sourcebook or novel where it is described in most detail? Thanks!
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Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 07 Dec 2010 17:24:43
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:58:52
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Clerics heal and wizards blast.
It's not a rule, it's a tradition, based on historical use of magic, fixed in fictional use of magic. Sometimes no distinction is made because magic is magic, other times (like in all D&D) the difference is rigidly established.
Insofar as game mechanics go the reason is simple: packing all of the healing, defense, buffs, utility, and blasting assault magics into a single class would make it so dominant that nobody would ever want to play anything else. As it stands, you can't be the best at both worlds, the more you balance on the middle of the beam the less leverage you can pull on either side. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 12:01:37
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Phaerimm have a Heal Self Spell, 6th level & The Simbul had a spell that converted spell levels into hp....so its possible.... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 12:06:09
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Yes, if you look hard enough you'll find exceptions and exploits for every rule. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 12:07:53
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Well I know it's possible -- every 2nd level bard could get a Cure Light Wounds, you know? And I could look up SEVERAL tricks that let Wizards get various cure spells.
I'm just trying to figure out the NON mechanics reason using Arcana / the Weave vs going through Divine Magic makes healing difficult. IE, *why* one has to use special tricks in the first place! |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 07 Dec 2010 12:08:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:16:24
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quote: Originally posted by Snowblood
Phaerimm have a Heal Self Spell, 6th level & The Simbul had a spell that converted spell levels into hp....so its possible....
The Simbul's Synostodweomer spell did heal, but only at a rate of 2 hp per traded spell level. So you'd have to trade a meteor swarm or the like to get back 18 hp. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:18:47
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Ouch, yea, there are lots better tricks to do it -- but I want the theory / lore why you HAVE to use tricks in the first place... |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:23:55
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Gavinfoxx, you ask a question that I've had to answer in my campaign. My answer at the time was simple: Most D+D spellcasters do not have a thorough enough understanding of human (or elf, or dwarf) physiology to be able to apply magic precisely enough to (say) urge the cellular structure into speeding up its regeneration process. Clerics don't generally have this knowledge, either, of course, but the Power is different from the Art in that it is guided by the hand of a god, and THEY know mortal physiology quite well. It could also be that the Art is not good at Positive energy; I have a hard time believing that this is the problem, though. I think that SOME arcanists have sidestepped the problem by either having a deep understanding of physiology, or (more likely IMO) a subtle hand with Positive energy. Perhaps that's why Bards can use Cure spells, and not wizards/sorcerors; Spellsongs inherently manipulate positive energy with more adroitness than the essentially hermetic tradition of most wizard/sorcerors. In fact, now that I think about it, this is the most likely answer: The power of the ancient spellsong echos in Bardic magic, enabling it to perform feats beyond normal arcane magic, but also limiting it, in other respects. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:32:35
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probably something about the arcane magic being the magic of the Prime, where negative and positive energy cancel each other, while the divine magic caster channels the energy of from the divine realms, not of the Prime
it's a silly tradition imo, we only use three classes |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:55:34
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(3.5e...)
Here's a question: Why can't Disrupt Undead, and it's non cantrip / actual spell version, Greater Disrupt Undead, heal people? Isn't that just a wizard flinging positive energy at something? |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:05:56
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quote: Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
(3.5e...)
Here's a question: Why can't Disrupt Undead, and it's non cantrip / actual spell version, Greater Disrupt Undead, heal people? Isn't that just a wizard flinging positive energy at something?
Well... to use an old warhorse of an analogy: If you're adept and deft with fire, you can use it to weld, cook food, provide warmth, and make glass... just b/c I can strike flint and tinder together to summon fire, does not mean I can weld. In other words, I think maybe when an arcanist wields Pos. energy, it's as a cudgel, rather than as a scalpel. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:13:57
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Okay, so we've established that arcanists tend to wield positive energy like a cudgel...
So that still doesn't give me any LORE reason as to *why this is*.
I was thinking there would be something around the time of troubles or something that has to do with the weave or how gods provide spells or some named restriction of mystra's on healing spells or SOMETHING like that... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:18:06
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From a mechanics standpoint, if wizards/sorcerers could obtain healing magic without going through Loops (though taking 1 to 2 feats isn't really going through loops) then there'd be little reason to play a cleric of Druid. As Arik pointed out, there has to be balance (something v3.5 has little of I might add) from the gaming perspective.
I think Knight of the Gate has the right of it in terms of fluff and the in-game reasons of why most arcanists can't use healing magic. Besides, clerics and the divine classes channel Divine magic, which I don't think (or believe) is associated with the Weave and there for, works differently. |
Edited by - Diffan on 07 Dec 2010 14:25:43 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:24:59
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Or a better question is why can't divine classes cast Wish spells or Evard's Black Tenticles?
There doesn't have to be a Lore reason or in-campaign setting reason why something works when dealing with Core rules. This is mainly to keep things streamlined with the Core product.
For example: Wizards in core-rules aren't proficient with Martial weapons, but why aren't wizards in the Forgotten Realms proficient with Martial Weapons? Well you could make up an extreamly in depth answer steeped in FR lore, OR use the quicker, more simple method and use what they say in the PHB. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:00:37
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One of the biggest problems I ran into in 3.x (well, problem for my DM *evil grin*) was that as a Cleric, I could cast spells that made my BAB progression the same as a fighter. Combine that will stacking other spells that would buff me up and I became a juggernaut. There was no reason to play a fighter when I could do it all myself. Anyways, my point is that allowing the classes to bleed over causes a lot of unintended consequences, many of which have been brought up here. Also, the FR Dwoermokeeper was one way of blending Wizard/Cleric-- and don't even get me started on the monstrosity that that combination caused ;) |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:52:47
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Well... I do not think there's a specific official lore reason. The reason for the separation, of course, was game balance and the way D&D was conceived in the early 70s. The distinction was maintained at least through to 3.5E.
So, if the question is - what is the official "lore" reason for the separation? There is none, I think - it's just how D&D was set up. It's one of the things we accept when we play D&D - the four basic classes, and never shall there be overlap between them .
If you are looking for a particular possible explanation: I've had to answer the question to my always inquisitive and rules bending players, as to "why". My answer was that pure healing magic (a bit more about the "pure" later) is so intricately linked to the fundamentals of life (the "spark of life", if you want) and creation that only the divine can have and grant access to it. There are some healing spells under arcane magic (the aforementioned Symbul's Synostodweomer, for one, and vampiric touch, as well as some others over the course of the years). However, all of those require some form of sacrifice or the other (spells, for the synostodweomer, some one else' hit points for vampiric touch), whereas clerical/divine healing magic does not require such sacrifice. I've further emphasised the difference by stating that only the divine can trule create and repair life, and that divine magic is different from arcane magic in that a divine spellcaster does not power or carry his or her own spells - he's just a vessel for divine magic obtained from his or her patron power. That's the distinction I've always tried to maintain.
Nevertheless - I'm sure that Big Ed's players have come up with questions like these, and if they have not, I'm sure he's thought it through. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:54:53
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In 2e I ran a Priest of Mystra - that gave me full access to the Wizard Spell list as well. I also multi-classed as a fighter, and took a Fighter-Kit that allowed me Thief skills - I was a one-man party.
Anyhow, I was going to espouse some of my own theories, but Quale seems to have done it for me -
quote: Originally posted by Quale
probably something about the arcane magic being the magic of the Prime, where negative and positive energy cancel each other, while the divine magic caster channels the energy of from the divine realms, not of the Prime.
Precisely how I see it working in my Homebrew cosmology (which works better in places with FR then FR's own official cosmology).
We have the energy that comes 'from above' (Radiance) - this is divine energy and it is the very stuff of life. We also have the energy that comes 'from below', which is Umbral (Shadow) and is tied to death (and evil). In the Middle we have 'Arcane energy' which derives from The Weave and is a blend of the negative and positive aspects of magic, combined with elemental (material) magic.
Ergo, Arcane energy (and Wizards) is like the Swiss-Army Knife of magic - it can do a little of everything, because it is a blend of all three 'worlds' (dimensions), but it isn't nearly as good at any one thing as a Specialist would be (in this case, Divine-casters, Shadow-Mages, and Elementalists).
So in order to be REALLY good at something, you need to specialize in it (KotG's analogy was spot-on); Arcane magic is too diluted to be truly affective for healing.
That's MY in-game hypothesis. As to why it is the way it is - it was for game-balance when Gary Gygax created D&D. As time went on, less and less folks wanted to be 'the healer', and Priests got more and more 'Firepower'... which lead to them be the strongest class, IMHO (I almost always ran priests when I got a chance to play in other people's games). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:04:50
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quote: Originally posted by Thauramarth
Well... I do not think there's a specific official lore reason. The reason for the separation, of course, was game balance and the way D&D was conceived in the early 70s. The distinction was maintained at least through to 3.5E.
So, if the question is - what is the official "lore" reason for the separation? There is none, I think - it's just how D&D was set up. It's one of the things we accept when we play D&D - the four basic classes, and never shall there be overlap between them .
If you are looking for a particular possible explanation: I've had to answer the question to my always inquisitive and rules bending players, as to "why". My answer was that pure healing magic (a bit more about the "pure" later) is so intricately linked to the fundamentals of life (the "spark of life", if you want) and creation that only the divine can have and grant access to it. There are some healing spells under arcane magic (the aforementioned Symbul's Synostodweomer, for one, and vampiric touch, as well as some others over the course of the years). However, all of those require some form of sacrifice or the other (spells, for the synostodweomer, some one else' hit points for vampiric touch), whereas clerical/divine healing magic does not require such sacrifice. I've further emphasised the difference by stating that only the divine can trule create and repair life, and that divine magic is different from arcane magic in that a divine spellcaster does not power or carry his or her own spells - he's just a vessel for divine magic obtained from his or her patron power. That's the distinction I've always tried to maintain.
Nevertheless - I'm sure that Big Ed's players have come up with questions like these, and if they have not, I'm sure he's thought it through.
I like this explanation.
I'd go with a simple explanation: healing deals with life, which is granted by the gods. So divine magic is needed to heal. Arcane magic can do everything else, because it doesn't directly need the involvement of the gods. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:06:36
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Quale, yours is the best description. It works well, especially for us old folks. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:24:06
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Dude, I think the best answer is "because".
I would suggest that Gygax's association between healing and divine magic users comes from early Judeo-Christian sources. Remember, clerics back in the day did not cast spells, they recited prayers. And those prayers were answered. Prayers in the Old Books of the Ancient World were usually associated with curing the blind, lame, stricken or dead from their (varying degrees) of infirmity.
So there you have it...
I still prefer "because". |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:35:25
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Just FYI, one of the best ways to get healing as a wizard is the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine, just get the Healing Domain, or the Light of Venya spell from Spell Compendium, or Lesser Planar Binding on something that can heal you, or Summon Monster VI for a Bralani, or you could cast Shroud of Undeath and then cast anything that heals undead on the target of the Shroud, like Negative Energy Ray, or Plane Shift to the Positive Energy Plane, or Shapechange into something with spontaneous Cleric casting, or Shapechange into something with Fast Healing, or that is healed by something common, or Use Magic Device a wand of Lesser Vigor. You could use Limited Wish on a nice strong healing spell of appropriate level for Limited Wish. You could use the 7th level spell Synestodwoemer from the Spell Compendium, which lost the "Symbul" from the prefix when it was genericized to all campaign settings. I think it's stronger than the 2nd edition version. You can use the Healing Touch spell on someone else and then change into something with Fast Healing (like with Shapechange) or do it when you have lots of temporary hit points or whatever, burning the *temporary* hit points with Healing Touch, or you can go for the Rainbow Servant Prestige Class and get lots and lots, or use the Southern Magician feat to get some arcane spells... the list goes on, I'll edit this post adding a few more options as I think of them. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Dec 2010 06:53:15 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:59:41
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Plane Shift to the Plane of Positive Energy is a fave of mine. In 2e, I had a caster who developed a spell that open two 'gates to the Plane of Positive Energy. It worked like this: (O=Gate ---= Positive Energy)
O-----------O
The caster and his buddies would then stand in the 'column' of positive energy between these to 'gates', and heal-up.
This was a home-brew spell, of course. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:04:05
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13: I just got done adding that one, argh. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:12:30
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Hmm, I believe there used to be a kit in 2nd ed for a hedge wizard or healer mage or something of the sort that could use some minor healing spells in addition to some of the more nature-based spells. Elemental, plant, and animal related stuff, mostly, if I recall their spell list. The trade off was a very limited spell selection, because of the narrow focus of the kit. It was not FR specific, but would easily work in FR, especially in the wilder areas where clerics might be less common. Not every area has a church of some god or other to go to for healing, so this kit probably filled in that niche. I'm referring here to very isolated and small settlements that might not have access to trained and ordained priests of any particular faith. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:27:55
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So I added a bunch of options for how a wizard CAN *get healing done*... but none of those are, you know, intuitive, really. So it's not actually hard for a wizard to do, if he knows what he's doing.. it just takes some doing. I was hoping we could figure out a lore reason why it takes loopholes like I mentioned... something to do with the weave vs divine magic or something. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:30:12
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I recall the old Dreams of Red Wizards FR softcover book had arcane versions of healing spells. But I don't recall what lore justification (if any) existed in that book. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 07 Dec 2010 17:50:03 |
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EltonJ
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:33:58
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hmm. Interesting question. Sorry, I'm not sure how my answer will help. Perhaps arcanists are so deft in creating Quantum Mechanical Constructs that do more harm than heal, that they can't think outside the box in collapsing the quantum wave form to produce a healing result. While clerics are deft at collapsing the quantum wave form to easily produce a healing miracle.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:06:14
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Thayan magic is based on Mulhorandi magic, Misc, so it would have been based on Southern Magic in 1e/2e, which was a combination of arcane and Divine.
The Witch class in the DMG I believe also allowed for some healing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 18:06:36 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:42:06
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FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards does have The Simbul's Synostodweomer along with arcane (necromancer) versions of Regenerate and Restoration. Plus a large number of Protection spells and a number of wizardized divine spells which provide all sorts of minor buffs, resistances, and defenses; particularly as they relate to weather, fire, blasting, and undead. Many of these spell descriptions simply say "same as the nth level cleric/druid spell in PHB".
I'll note that this allows Red Wizards (only Red Wizards) to overlap the functions of many low-level divine magics; it's reasonable to assume that if they've duplicated these divine spells then they can duplicate almost any other divine spells of similar power. Reds can overlap the functions of low-level priests, they might even make the priest classes entirely redundant (and that makes sense, given their arrogant Thayan outlook considers wizards supreme). But they can not heal - or when they can, they most certainly cannot heal as efficiently as even a lowly 1st level clerical acolyte.
If you want to blast you play a wizard, if you want to heal you play a priest, if you want to do both you can play a multi and do neither of these things as well as you could by following a "traditional" class. Some D&D homebrews don't even make the distinction; their logic being that wizards and priests are as little different from each other as myrmidons and gladiators, they have different backgrounds which can greatly influence their abilities but are otherwise interchangeable. I personally like keeping them separate and don't much care for attempts to hybridize them without penalty. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Dec 2010 19:51:14 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 20:06:07
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Why are only Red Wizards able to cast these spells developed by Red Wizards, Arik?
quote: Originally posted by Arik
FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards does have The Simbul's Synostodweomer along with arcane (necromancer) versions of Regenerate and Restoration. Plus a large number of Protection spells and a number of wizardized divine spells which provide all sorts of minor buffs, resistances, and defenses; particularly as they relate to weather, fire, blasting, and undead. Many of these spell descriptions simply say "same as the nth level cleric/druid spell in PHB".
I'll note that this allows Red Wizards (only Red Wizards) to overlap the functions of many low-level divine magics; it's reasonable to assume that if they've duplicated these divine spells then they can duplicate almost any other divine spells of similar power. Reds can overlap the functions of low-level priests, they might even make the priest classes entirely redundant (and that makes sense, given their arrogant Thayan outlook considers wizards supreme). But they can not heal - or when they can, they most certainly cannot heal as efficiently as even a lowly 1st level clerical acolyte.
If you want to blast you play a wizard, if you want to heal you play a priest, if you want to do both you can play a multi and do neither of these things as well as you could by following a "traditional" class. Some D&D homebrews don't even make the distinction; their logic being that wizards and priests are as little different from each other as myrmidons and gladiators, they have different backgrounds which can greatly influence their abilities but are otherwise interchangeable. I personally like keeping them separate and don't much care for attempts to hybridize them without penalty.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 20:15:19
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I've always figured that there were more wizard healing spells than actually show up in gaming materials. Maybe they aren't all as efficient as their clerical counterparts, but they would be there. Why they haven't been written up is easy, and has been stated several times already: game balance.
My favorite example here is slow poison, and its stronger version, neutralize poison (oh, fyi, I'm a 2e gamer, so I'm using the 2e versions of these spells, but the point still holds). It is literally inconceivable to me that there aren't wizard versions of these spells, because the same people who would be needing them (potion-makers wanting to make sure they don't accidentally kill themselves) would also be the kinds of people who would have the set-up and time research spells. Add to that their strong motivation, ie: not getting dead, and you've got magical research.
I figure a poison antidote spell would rank right up there with "something to let me see in the dark" for the first things the early human spellcasters would be creating (ie: Netheril at its start, Imaskar at its start). It's just too useful, especially for civilizations (Netheril and Imaskar again) that down-played or eliminated clerical magic. And the fact that it's useful and practical is why I'm sure every other spellcasting race before humans (elves, sarrukh, etc.) would also have created their own varients.
When the idea is saving lives, it makes sense to get the tools into as many hands as possible. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be... Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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