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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
272 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 18:40:36
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In Lost Empires of Faerun:
"In the Year of Slaughter (1090 DR)[...] In secret negotiations, the Zhentarim prevailed upon the humanoid shamans to march their forces north into the Desertsmouth Mountains and lay siege to the rich mines of Tethyamar.
or
In Ruins of Zhentil-Keep:
"In the Year of the Carrion Crow (1229 DR) Manshoon, Gifted of the Gods and future savior of all Zhents, is born."
"In the Year of Bright Dreams (1261 DR)For the security of all Zhents, Manshoon founds the Zhentarim; the organization is kept secret to protect it from enemy spies."
So, the Zhentarim doesn't exist in 1090 DR. 
And the question is: Who push "A smaller host of goblins, orcs, ogres, and giants marched east toward the sparsely populated northern Dalelands and the rich cities of the Moonsea." in 1090 DR? 
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"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 02 Dec 2010 20:47:23
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 18:57:16
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Also:
In Running the Realms (tsr1085):
940 DR The Year of the Cold Claws: Ashaba, first Lord of Shadowdale,merges with river.
In Lost Empires of Faerun:
1090 DR The Year of Slaughter: Although popular legends claim that the wizard Ashaba manifested as a greatwall of water and turned aside the invaders, the truth is far more mundane.
Ashaba is "dead" 150 years ago.
It's a popular legend, so perhaps this isn't a problem...
What do you think? |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 19:01:47
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Ruins of Zhentil Keep came out when TSR/Wizards was a little ... disorganized. Lost Empires is a more recent publication and generally more accurate. I'm personally inclined to treat Ruins as the canon for all-things-Zhentish, but only because I have a tendency to prefer "original" lore to "retconned" lore.
[edit]
Your first question about the monster hordes in the Moonsea region is possibly a reference to events from Pool of Radiance. "Who" really means "Tyranthraxus". |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Dec 2010 19:04:41 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 11:09:03
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probably a mistake in the Zhent terminology, should be Zhent or Zhentilar
or Manshoon resurrected the Zhentarim |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
734 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 14:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Also:
In Running the Realms (tsr1085):
940 DR The Year of the Cold Claws: Ashaba, first Lord of Shadowdale,merges with river.
In Lost Empires of Faerun:
1090 DR The Year of Slaughter: Although popular legends claim that the wizard Ashaba manifested as a greatwall of water and turned aside the invaders, the truth is far more mundane.
Ashaba is "dead" 150 years ago.
It's a popular legend, so perhaps this isn't a problem...
What do you think?
On this particular one, I would say that the Popular legend may not be such a huge issue - Ashaba did not "die", he merged with the river (so, following that logic, he may very well have manifested as a wall of water - in the Realms' logic, it is not implausible). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 22:17:35
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Also, the history section in Ruins of Zhentil Keep is falsely documented on-purpose - it says as much; it was written from a Zhentish (and Manshoon-centric) perspective.
If I were to take a guess, I would say the Zhentarrim existed in some capacity in 1090 DR, but then when Manshoon took-over he better-organized them, turning them into a 'force to be reckoned with' (so as far as HE is concerned, he DID create them... even though an organization by that name already existed). Since Zhentish History (which is what Ruins is) is approved by Manshoon, it obviously reflects his personal view of how things transpired. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 17:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, the history section in Ruins of Zhentil Keep is falsely documented on-purpose - it says as much; it was written from a Zhentish (and Manshoon-centric) perspective.
Yes, but
From Villain's Lorebbok:
"With the city under his thumb, Manshoon created the Zhentarim in 1261 DR."
and
From Cult of the Dragon:
"While the Zhentarim were not founded until the Year of Bright Dreams (1261 DR)"
These books wasn't written by the Zhentarim?
So... if someone have another explanation...  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 23:30:26
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| Those writers believe the mis-information... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Those writers believe the mis-information...
Is it Candlekeep infiltrate?  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:09:12
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No, Manshoon just caught them in a dark alley.
And, of course, the simplest explanation is that the wrong terminology was used - it should have read Zhentilar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 19:10:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No, Manshoon just caught them in a dark alley.
And, of course, the simplest explanation is that the wrong terminology was used - it should have read Zhentilar.
That, or there have been two groups by that name, and the earlier one either went defunct or was incorporated into the second. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:01:52
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The sidebar on Lost Empires p. 134 seems to use 'Zhentarim' to refer to the wizardly successors of Zhentar on the Council of Lords, who preceded Manshoon's group. Remember, 3E sources simplified the terminology so that, for instance, 'Zhentilar' isn't used in Lost Empires -- the distinction only reappeared in Power of Faerûn. This simplification might have been made in editing.quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, the history section in Ruins of Zhentil Keep is falsely documented on-purpose - it says as much; it was written from a Zhentish (and Manshoon-centric) perspective.
The timeline there is Zhent propaganda, but the narrative history it follows, written by Ed, is as more-or-less-straight as most sourcebook lore is. |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 17:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
probably a mistake in the Zhent terminology, should be Zhent or Zhentilar
or Manshoon resurrected the Zhentarim
The first option seems the more likely, but the other open interesting prospects... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Tethyamar and the Zhentarim
