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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 20:01:05
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| Even Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" installments each had a stand-alone plot, and an over-arching plot... Well, until the last few! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 21:50:51
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| I'm inclined to think that, since EMD is clearly designed to be the first book of a double trilogy, it's entirely possible the "bad" elements are included to serve as background and foreshadowing of important machinery within the larger story context. Moreso since six books probably weave together a fair number of diverting tales and plot arcs which cleverly rove across a large setting. I do plan to read this book, though I don't plan to read it until I can get the entire set of books together (I loathe being forced to wait indefinitely between installments, and I hate being unable to finish a series because some book or other becomes forgotten or unavailable; none of this is the author's fault). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2010 21:54:43 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 21:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
.....
Alassra's mental illness was very poorly portrayed. I would invite Ed to do some field observation with the mentally ill, in an attempt to portray the mentally ill 'realisticly'.
....
Snipped...
I couldn't agree more. Ed should go down to the nearest retirement home for retired magic users and chosen in Canada, spend a few weeks there and see how people there are reacting mentally from their own traumatic symptoms from either the death of their deity and all the magic going awry... 
Your opinions are what theynare, there yours and no one can tell you otherwise, but that one is just unfair....he didn't claim to be writing about real world insanity....there are plenty of other places on the web you can go just beat up on authors, this is not the place for it. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 23:27:56
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Well, now, Acolyte Thirteen, let me disagree.
Here we go...
I liked "Elminster Must Die!" for a number of reasons. This book had a realistic, complex plot. It needs no excuses, weak or otherwise, in my opinion. Books and novels aren't real life, but even so need not have clear, wrap-everything-up endings. If the author has "six books" worth of material, there is space to pursue an overarching narrative over several books, so long as there are satisfying culminations in each book. There were two in this novel, in my opinion.
The use of slapstick in this novel was expected and true to the Realms as portrayed by Ed, Jeff Grubb, and others from its published beginnings. Those who aren't fans of it should look elsewhere for their reading pleasure, because after twenty-some years of Realms novels, they should know what to expect. I, personally, find it refreshing (if not overused) to have pratfalls and not everything going "exactly according to plan" for major characters, rather than protagonists who succeed at everything while endless legions of spearcarriers get killed with ease, as happens in many other fantasy novels.
I also don't think much of carping from readers who judge characters by their own standards, rather than those OF THE CHARACTERS. Elminster complains quite a bit about how he's getting too old for this, and that he wasn't what he once was, and in almost all of those situations is complaining about his magical and mental failings, not his physical ones. The character has the constitution of an ox, and has often throughout his long life used physical means of winning battles, knife catching and throwing being one of his skills acquired in his early years (as seen in "The Making Of A Mage"). El isn't decrying his lack of agility or fighting skills, he's mentally weary and far weaker as a wizard, and doesn't feel like going on "saving the Realms" but feels someone should (and can't see a successor). I don't see him using a previously-established skill that he isn't complaining about as "really out of place." Just my opinion, but as valid as yours.
"Chapters" in the book were exactly that, and averaged around 3,000 words. Far longer than the chapter divisions in the Athans Watercourse trilogy, shorter than in some novels, but about average for most fantasy novels published today. The point is that chapters are divisions of no set length, so there's nothing "wrong" with an author using any particular length.
Contrary to your complaint about "Too much time in whore houses." and the rant you attached to it, the book never visits a single whore house. It visits and revisits a single (yep, just one) drinking and dance club that offers brothel services, and has only one, non-explicit "backroom" scene. I found nothing "loathsome," and find your complaint itself, to use your words, 'over the top'. It's finding fault for the purposes of finding fault, in my opinion.
"Alassra's mental illness was very poorly portrayed." Flat disagreement here, from a reader (me) who has "seen" a lot mental illness at least claimed in my courtroom over decades. I find your comment that "I would invite Ed to do some field observation with the mentally ill, in an attempt to portray the mentally ill 'realisticly'." a little insulting to Ed, who DOES do volunteer work with mentally and physically handicapped people, and has done for forty-some years. And wasn't it you who posted, a few sentences earlier, that fantasy novels aren't "real life"? You can have it one way or the other, but not both . . .
Contrary to what you thought El was portrayed as, the author - - in my opinion - - did do a great job of portraying El as a weary veteran who uses sarcasm, irony, and wit to deal with life. One who as the servant of a goddess believes that others who he deems suitable should serve her as he has, and isn't above trying to force them to do that.
That's a belief and approach the author shows us is wrong, and isn't going to work unless the chosen successor agrees.
El's attempts to do this are made with a grimness and moments of self-argument that show us clearly that Elminster might be wrong, might be ruthless/evil in pursuing this, but does NOT have an "utter lack of respect for the 'human person'." If he did, there would be no hesitations, no attempts to "talk" with Amarune, just ordering her to do X and unhesitating magical coercion to make her obey, at their first meeting.
"By the end of this book, I hated the protagonist." Fair enough. I think Ed wanted us to hate El as well as sympathise with him. I want to see how he will develop in the books ahead.
You post that you want the citizens of Cormyr to catch him in "the catecombs (which *must* be the biggest dungeon in the Realms, contrary to prior lore)." Pity for your point that there aren't any catecombs mentioned in the book, just the haunted wing and the previously-established and described (in the Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy) cellars of the Palace, which don't seem to have grown any larger than when they were first described by Ed in 1986 or so.
As for this: "The destiny of Cormyr, aye, all Cormyrians, lie in *their* hands, and is plotted by *their* choices!"
This I agree with. And I believe the ELMINSTER MUST DIE! book that I read (I presume we all bought copies that had the same words in them, arranged the same way on the pages) showed us a large array of Cormyreans all wanting and trying to do just that. Rushing toward a Council that probably isn't going to go at all well, but which has been called for that very purpose. I also believe that most of Ed Greenwood's Elminster novels down the years, and the Spellfire trilogy, and Stormlight and City of Splendors and others, have all made that point. Lives in the lands of the Realms are shaped by the choices citizens make, and whenever they are coerced or oppressed by anyone (nobles of Cormyr, Lords of Waterdeep, Red Wizards of Thay, Zhentarim) it creates a situation of a cauldron lid being held down over something that's going to blow off, soon . . .
So for me, the book was a clear Hit. Not a simple action-adventure novel with good fighting evil and everyone either a hero or a villain, but a complex, confusing short span of time when a lot of people (all in moral shades of gray) fought and intrigued and tried to get their own way, or what they saw as the "right" way.
I've never seen Elminster as a clear-cut hero. I don't think Ed is telling stories as simple as that.
I usually don't post much here at the Keep, just read and hold my peace. Just as I do on the bench (I largely keep quiet, listen, and learn.) However, when I see posts I think are so inaccurate as to verge on unfounded attacks on a writer, I speak up. Feel free to disagree with me; I won't be surprised if you do.
But you're going to have to come up with better arguments than those in your post to change my mind about this book. |
Edited by - A Gavel on 05 Dec 2010 23:35:42 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:56:54
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Well... I do disagree, A Gavel. However, I must stress that I have no desire to change your mind!
But, you see, I *can* 'have it both ways'. You see, a novel, a film, a play, any narrative, really, should tell a story well. It shouldn't tell a story poorly. There are a number of ways that a story can be told poorly, no need to describe those.
But a story is crafted. I did not feel that EMD was crafted well.
The depiction of the Simbuls mental illness made me wince. I think that when an author is describing something in a story, it should be described well. I think that real life mentally ill people would serve as good models for writing about mentally ill characters in stories. Then, when the author is writing about a mentally ill character, it will be more engrossing. I'm pretty sure a lot of authors use methods like this one...
I think there was more than one whore-house in the novel. I don't have my copy. I gave it to a friend who has all of Ed's books, because I didn't care for it. I didn't care for the whore-house scenes. You're free to. I personally find them loathsome. You're free to have another opinion.
There was a scene where El and Amarune sneak out the back of one whore house or another, and Elminster coerces Amarune to knock some guy down, just for fun. I think Elminster is a bully.
I wonder what a judge, magistrate or something, would say to a fellow who said,
"Yeah, last night I kicked this dude in the nuts, then stopped by the whore-house for a bit, then killed a couple of police-men (War-Wizards). I wrapped that up by drugging, then kidnapping, my grand-daughter, with the help of my girlfriend's sister, whom I'm sleeping with."
Probably, "My sir, you certainly have a refined sense of respect for the 'human person".!!
But anyway, that's just my feelings on the book. I in no way want this to serve as a review or critique. Just my thoughts. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:10:32
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| I don't think you need to wonder how a judge or magistrate would reply to that. It's self-evident. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31729 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
The depiction of the Simbuls mental illness made me wince. I think that when an author is describing something in a story, it should be described well. I think that real life mentally ill people would serve as good models for writing about mentally ill characters in stories. Then, when the author is writing about a mentally ill character, it will be more engrossing. I'm pretty sure a lot of authors use methods like this one...
Eh. I've worked closely with the mentally-ill in the past, and I felt that Ed pretty much nailed the nature and scope of how a particular mental state can be affected by external trauma and such.
Let's remember, too, that we're talking about a fictional setting where the devastating impact of the Spellplague on a human mind, can only really be guessed at. There's no specific hard-science approach writers can use for this. It's speculative, at best. And I think Ed, as always, manages rather well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:22:22
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Yeah, that's the thing, Sage. *I've* also worked closely with the mentally ill- you name the diagnosis, I've probably seen it. (Yes, one could easily name one I haven't seen, if one tried...).
But ok, yeah. Ed pretty much nailed the idea that psychic trauma can be caused by environmental trauma.
Arik; I agree it's self evident. But what if that person offered the caveat,
"But wait! The head of your nation state is a fop, its advisors are fools, and I AM HERE TO SAVE THE WORLD! Trust me!" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:25:44
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| While I agree on most of Acolyte Thirteen's review, I don't on the depiction of the Simbul's mental illness. It was...well...touching. Maybe you have to be an Alassra fan to understand. Whether it's portrayed as real-life or not is not an issue. FR is a fictional setting, and Alassra's madness is caused not by genetic abnormality, drugs, or anything we could see in the RW. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:30:36
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| lol, you were offered a caveat, A13. Res ipsa loquitur. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:34:48
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| That can't be it, dennis. I'm a *huge* Alassra fan. Possibly 5th largest Alassra fan alive today. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:38:40
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Ah, well, even fans sometimes don't share the same idea - nor the same level of fondness- of their favorite character. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:53:48
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Sure, dennis; I guess it's possible that I didn't like the portrayal of the Simbul in EMD because I am vastly more fond of the character than you, but I still think it was the characterization of her psychopathological symptoms.
But who know! |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:14:54
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Arik,
It is clear that *who* was negligent?
Who was negligent? Or... Elminster is *obviously* an ass?
I don't get you meaning, sir!! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I haven't yet read EMD, but your argument could apply equally well to Star Wars or even Lord of the Rings (books or movies). Or really to any trilogy of books or movies released in the last decades. Each part (if taken alone or out of context) is a weak and incomplete story. There is an assumption that the reader/audience will follow through the full story by experiencing them all in sequence. It's hardly fair to criticize Part One when Parts Two through Six aren't even complete. It's also not fair to complain about being "ripped off" by the fact that the first part does not include the entire story. And to be fairer still, it's indeed quite possible that the first book sucks for whatever reason but the subsequent books will more than redeem the entire story (not that I'm saying that, since again, I have not yet read any of it).
I've read quite a lot of duologies, trilogies, quartets, pentads (and so on).... that have somewhat stand-alone plots. It is fair to criticize the plot of one book in a series because while it relates to the others in the series, still it should tell something with coherence. The HL and TW trilogies are best examples. And outside FR, there are Feist's Demonwar, Riftwar, and Serpentwar Sagas, Martin's Chronicles of the Necromancer, Canavan's The Black Magician trilogy, and a whole lot more. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:39:32
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Sorry, Acolyte Thirteen, but your review of the book just fell apart for me when you described all the "whore house" scenes as "loathsome."
Perhaps you bought a copy of the book that was different than mine, but mine didn't have ANY whorehouse scenes in it.
There was one drinking and eating club, where Amarune worked/performed, that had nude dancers up on a stage, whom patrons could go and hire for sex in back rooms.
The book visited that club three times, I think (might have been four). A brawl took up one scene, there was NO explicit descriptions of the dancers, and the other long scene was in Amarune's dressing room and no sex occurred (again, there was a fight/argument).
So I don't know what was in the book that you could find "loathsome" about any of this. If you don't like the fact that there are nude dancing clubs in the Realms . . . geez, there were festhalls/brothels mentioned in the original Realms boxed set, back in 1986, so it shouldn't come as any surprise.
And I guess if Ed Greenwood creates a fantasy world that has, gosh, sex happening in it, that would explain why it has creatures in it.
You sorta have to have one to get the other, unless the entire world is just a combat arena for creatures who arrive through portals from somewhere else.
There were more nude or intimate moments in the book AWAY from the club than in it. (And there weren't many of those.)
So in the entire book: one club, no whorehouses. At all.
And my copy looks complete, judging by the page numbers and the way the story ends.
So all this complaining about "whore houses" suggests to me you didn't read the book, or didn't read it closely, or misunderstood what you were reading about. (Or perhaps came into this with a preconceived idea about Ed's writing that you wanted to bash him about?)
So tell me, if all this stuff that isn't there is so "loathsome," what would you think of, say, a really tame (no explicit sex scenes) romance book? Because, even if it doesn't describe any sex, the WHOLE BOOK is about forging a relationship and therefore "getting to" sex.
I personally find murder far more offensive than sex, and Realms novels are full of killing, but it doesn't bother me. . . |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:50:26
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So okay, while I'm logged on . . .
dennis, re. this: "I've read quite a lot of duologies, trilogies, quartets, pentads (and so on).... that have somewhat stand-alone plots. It is fair to criticize the plot of one book in a series because while it relates to the others in the series, still it should tell something with coherence."
The trend in modern North American fantasy stories is books that "sort of" stand alone. Yet all you have to do is look at classics like Eddison's Zimiamvian books, or Peake's Titus books, or Zelazny's Amber to know that sometimes series fantasy novels DON'T stand alone. It's two different approaches, not a "right" way and a "wrong" way.
You've had a lot to say that you didn't like about the book, and that's perfectly fine. Some of your crit I agree with, most of it I don't.
Yet I found nothing at all incoherent about the book; what was unclear to you?
It read to me like very realistic confusion and rushing about at the end, and Ed Greenwood has never written Realms novels with blunt "The fighter hacking the orc is thinking this" prose, as if the reader needs everything explained and there are no nuances/different interpretations/levels of meaning. That's WHY I read the guy; that's what I WANT in a novel.
My pet hate is quest fantasies where the good guys unerringly find their way across great distances in unfamiliar terrain without ever getting lost, never miss anyone or anything, arrive at just the right time with every doodad needed for their quest, and somehow know exactly the right thing to do, and no one stops them doing it. Contrived and simplistic.
Unlike this book, where as I read it I kept thinking, "Yes, real people would screw up like this."
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
Sorry, Acolyte Thirteen, but your review of the book just fell apart for me when you described all the "whore house" scenes as "loathsome."
Perhaps you bought a copy of the book that was different than mine, but mine didn't have ANY whorehouse scenes in it.
As I mentioned above, the large number of whore-houses in the Realms is well documented. It is well known that "festhall" is synonomous with "brothel" which is synonomous with "whore-house", in the Realms. Grubb actually changed "brothel" to festhall in the OGB. I mention that in my first post regarding this issue.
You are free to enjoy the whore-house scenes to your hearts content. Personally I find whore-houses loathsome, due to the exploitive nature of whore-houses.
You may have a different opinion, and enjoy seeing men and women exploited sexually. I do not.
I must add that you are drawing a false equivelency between procreation-romantic love-prostitution, in my opinion.
But I'm glad you enjoyed it, Broken Helm. |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:58:45
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The large number of festhalls in the Realms is indeed well documented.
But has nothing whatsoever to do with the novel this poll is SUPPOSED to be about.
Being as none at all are featured in the book.
So why exactly are you posting about them in this thread, Acolyte Thirteen? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:02:44
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Here's the thing. alassra's maddness in the book is not just "mental illness"- it's a MAGICALLY INDUCED "mental illness" that affects her not just in mind, but in body (she keeps shape-shifting involuntarily) as well, and leaves her a babbling idiot the rest of the time. (sorry for spoilers, guys!) what exactly about that was portrayed unrealistically? She was a friggin CHOSEN who has lost her goddess AND her magic!! A far fall for the former Witch-Queen, I'd say. I've seen plenty of depictions of people with shattered minds that were not nearly so well done. (And I just went job-hunting yesterday at a retirement home, where I walked in the door to see no less than five poor souls sitting in wheelchairs staring off into empty space with utterly blank faces, and one more knitting a pair of booties without any needles to work with. Apparently, Alassra got off comparatively easily....)
Those scenes in the fest-hall were simply a setting for the various events in the story, and nothing more. Amarune was a courtesan- what, you expected everything to be squeaky clean and sanitized for your approval, AT? A courtesan DOES occasionally deal in *ahem* that sort of interactions, and these were masked dancers, and there was never any real mention of sex. She dances on a stage naked. Big whoop. You can see MUCH worse in certain areas of Broadway in New York on any given day- and probably much more shocking stuff in any random romance novel! This is coming from one who has seen both, and is not offended. Methinks someone may have some repression issues.... Er, not that there's anything wrong with that, just sayin it's no reason to get in a huff over a few mildly brow-raising scenes in a fictional world. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:20:52
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No. Quite a few scenes in EMD took place in whore-houses. I also believe that more than one whore-house was depicted in the novel.
I find whore-houses loathsome. Others clearly disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
The large number of festhalls in the Realms is indeed well documented.
But has nothing whatsoever to do with the novel this poll is SUPPOSED to be about.
Being as none at all are featured in the book.
So why exactly are you posting about them in this thread, Acolyte Thirteen?
Ailystra, I don't believe that being apalled by the sexual exploitation of women in whore-houses is an example of 'repression'. Further, I don't believe a qualified clinician would suggest that being against sexual exploitation is predicated by sexual regression.
But, considering your previously stated views on the the appropriateness of sexual violence, it doesn't surprise me.
But, allow me to reiterate: If you enjoy fantsizing about sexual violence, have to! However, one must recognize that the preponderance of social science indicates that these types of fantasy often lead to sexually violent ideation...
As we have seen in Aliustra's posts in the past!!!
(Holy moley! The predictive power of science at its best!!) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:35:20
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| AT, be wary of your word choice. I hate to see this thread sealed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
AT, be wary of your word choice. I hate to see this thread sealed.
You're right, dennis. While I offer my opinion only, many scribes have enjoyed attacking it.
Which is certainly fine by me! I do not wish to change anyones assessment of the book, only offer my perspective. Others I doubt will find fruit in attacking my opinion! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:45:07
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| Let's just drop the topic of whether or not the book had festhalls, okay? We're starting to get back into some territory we really don't need to be going into again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's just drop the topic of whether or not the book had festhalls, okay? We're starting to get back into some territory we really don't need to be going into again.
AGREED!
It's only today that I noticed I misspelled "must" (originally "mus") in the title. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Dec 2010 05:51:49 |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 12:26:47
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| Hit. |
Shar! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 15:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's just drop the topic of whether or not the book had festhalls, okay? We're starting to get back into some territory we really don't need to be going into again.
For what it's worth, I concur with Wooly's suggestion. We should go back to discussing the novel in more general terms, and if a deep-dive into "Festhalls: Sex-Positive or Exploitation?" is necessary, I'll open that thread myself in the General Chat section.
Also for the record, we HAVE talked about all things SEX in the Realms (there's a whole oft-sealed thread called "Sex in the Realms" to that effect), including but not limited to the preponderance of festhalls/brothels and contrasting them between real-world incarnations and Realmsian establishments, as rooted in the society/culture of either place. The conclusion that I have reached, at least, is that the two are fundamentally different, and so generally speaking, a Realms brothel supports something other than what a real-world brothel does. (The argument is much more complex, of course, with lots of facets, and is really a fascinating discussion.)
But none of this is on the "EMD: Hit or Miss" topic, and this thread should totally get back to that. Your opinions on the subject of festhalls are valuable, 13, but I think we can all agree that they should go elsewhere for the time being.
My opinion.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 16:31:07
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Moving on, did anyone besides me get a little confused by El's actions at the end? He took over her body (Amarune) and now what? Is she still in there too, and if he wanted a "successor", why did he feel the need to do that? That is really my only gripe with the story. It just seemed a little hypocritical. Although I voted hit, I would have liked the denoument to be clearer.
Edit: Although I like all of Ed's books, I was a little less thrilled by this one, though the possible return of Mystra left me hopeful for the next. will definitely read BED. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 06 Dec 2010 17:26:07 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 18:05:10
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AI, I think what he did was store his mind/spirit in her, so that he can act as a sort of guiding force (and take her over when needed) until she's ready to go it alone.
(This might not be as necessary as he seems to think--it might be symptomatic of his inability/unwillingness to let go and rest. Which is not to say that he's wrong in that.)
So I can understand it that way, as part of El's ongoing struggle as much against the dangers of the world as against his own feelings of need to control--feelings that are more often than not justified, actually.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 19:40:41
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The whore-houses were one thing that made the novel a 'Miss' for me.
Completely on topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's just drop the topic of whether or not the book had festhalls, okay? We're starting to get back into some territory we really don't need to be going into again.
For what it's worth, I concur with Wooly's suggestion. We should go back to discussing the novel in more general terms, and if a deep-dive into "Festhalls: Sex-Positive or Exploitation?" is necessary, I'll open that thread myself in the General Chat section.
Also for the record, we HAVE talked about all things SEX in the Realms (there's a whole oft-sealed thread called "Sex in the Realms" to that effect), including but not limited to the preponderance of festhalls/brothels and contrasting them between real-world incarnations and Realmsian establishments, as rooted in the society/culture of either place. The conclusion that I have reached, at least, is that the two are fundamentally different, and so generally speaking, a Realms brothel supports something other than what a real-world brothel does. (The argument is much more complex, of course, with lots of facets, and is really a fascinating discussion.)
But none of this is on the "EMD: Hit or Miss" topic, and this thread should totally get back to that. Your opinions on the subject of festhalls are valuable, 13, but I think we can all agree that they should go elsewhere for the time being.
My opinion.
Cheers
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Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
