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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 09:36:19
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What surprises me is that there are already a lot of MISS votes. But I haven't yet heard comments from those who voted it. Possibly guests? Or members who are afraid to speak their minds because of some possible heated reaction from those who happen to love this novel? Or maybe because they think I said all that is needed mentioning about why this novel is a miss? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 11:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
No one has ever said that people couldn't post negative comments. I myself have stated, more than once, that I'm not a fan of most of Ed's fiction.
Will you read this book?
Yes. Don't know when, but I will read it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 12:01:25
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| I like Ed's non Realms Fiction better than I do his Realms Fiction. I loved his Dark Warrior Rising/Dark Vengence novels. I still need to get the rest of A Band of Four... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:23:21
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| His Archwizard, the second book of Falconfar saga bored me... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
No one has ever said that people couldn't post negative comments. I myself have stated, more than once, that I'm not a fan of most of Ed's fiction.
Will you read this book? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:46:29
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| Dark Warrior was a pretty good book, if a little "young". I liked it. Sometimes it's refreshing to get away from the Realms ... and refreshing to get away from elves like Drizzt. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Or maybe because they think I said all that is needed mentioning about why this novel is a miss?
I think that's being more than a little cynical.
Remember, also, that some, like myself, are somewhat less-inclined to post our thoughts on a particular novel because we're frightened by past experiences when certain unscrupulous scribes have come along, twisted our words, and used them to attack both author and novel. I, for one, am tired of that. And I'm tired of having my opinions on books taken elsewhere and used outside of proper context.
So I think I'll just say that, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed Ed's latest Realms tale, and that I'm eagerly anticipating the rest of the series. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
No one has ever said that people couldn't post negative comments. I myself have stated, more than once, that I'm not a fan of most of Ed's fiction.
Will you read this book?
Uh... I already said I would. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:49:39
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| I'm not sure if I'd ever want to read Ed's non-FR fiction. Archwizard is still very fresh in my mind even though it's been like almost a year. Unpleasant memories sometimes stick around to torment people... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:52:29
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A REQUEST TO ALL:
Would you be so kind as to STATE the reasons for your vote? I noticed the results changed again, specially the MISS; yet I read no comment at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:01:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
No one has ever said that people couldn't post negative comments. I myself have stated, more than once, that I'm not a fan of most of Ed's fiction.
Will you read this book?
Uh... I already said I would.
I inadvertently deleted it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Or maybe because they think I said all that is needed mentioning about why this novel is a miss?
I think that's being more than a little cynical.
Remember, also, that some, like myself, are somewhat less-inclined to post our thoughts on a particular novel because we're frightened by past experiences when certain unscrupulous scribes have come along, twisted our words, and used them to attack both author and novel. I, for one, am tired of that. And I'm tired of having my opinions on books taken elsewhere and used outside of proper context.
So I think I'll just say that, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed Ed's latest Realms tale, and that I'm eagerly anticipating the rest of the series.
Heh, you're taking it seriously. 'Twas a joke, Sage. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:08:02
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| Ack, edit/delete |
Edited by - Matt James on 03 Dec 2010 02:09:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Already stated the reasons for my vote. I voted "hit" in case you were wondering.
Yup. Read those replies of yours. I was referring more to those who voted otherwise, as its number is (strangely? unexpectedly?) nearing the HIT. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
His Archwizard, the second book of Falconfar saga bored me...
So there is no pleasing you... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
His Archwizard, the second book of Falconfar saga bored me...
So there is no pleasing you...
Heh, you just happened to read my posts that bore my heavy disappointment. I did mention in several scrolls my PRAISES for some of Ed's novels: The Making of a Mage, Elminster in Myth Drannor, The Temptation of Elminster, and Elminster in Hell. The first being what I call his magnum opus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:01:18
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Well, dennis, you asked. Be careful what you ask for, as they say. 
I voted "Hit" (a flawed book, but definitely among the best Realms novels out of the whole line - - and yes, I have read them all, as well as literally thousands of other fantasy novels, modern and otherwise).
Your "good points," I by and large agree with.
So let's look at your "Why-on-earth-do-I-have-to-see-these? Points."
"Un-motivating prologue." To you, perhaps.
"A book's prologue is supposed to motivate the reader to continue reading till the end. A teaser, in short."
That's one use for a prologue, and in fact, as the lowest/simplest use, becoming the most popular. Yet it's far from the only use for a prologue, and Ed's "classical" style elsewhere in the book, and in his previous published canon, should make it clear that Ed is well aware of the other (higher) uses of a prologue . . . two of which he's doing here: establishing a theme/metaphor for the work, and foreshadowing by providing lore that's going to be relevant later. As THO pointed out, a six-book series. So think big.
"This book is supposed to herald a new chapter in El's looooong life."
Well, sez you. "But where's the 'newness' in it when we still see his old foe wagging his rotting tail?" Here your dislike of Manshoon colors your judgment. Highly. As for this: "The endless Elminster-Cockroach rivalry deserves not a hiatus, but an utter cessation." I happen to agree with you, but I also happen to know HOW Realms novels get written; you can be VERY sure that an El-Manshoon clash was approved of, and probably ASKED FOR by the editors. Because the majority of readers who have contacted WotC have asked for it. Your wants obviously lie elsewhere, but . . .
"Too many nobles, too little purpose. I came to the point when I told myself they could all die for all I care!"
I agree with you here, too. Yet I also think this was what Ed was trying to make you and all readers think/feel: that many of Cormyr's nobles are Too Much, entirely, have outlived their time, are a pain in the a@@ to not only the government bu the majority of citizens, and should set even a casual reader's teeth on edge.
Except, of course, Arclath. Who's flippant and annoying when he wants to be, too. Yet consider the good and, well, NOBLE nobles Ed's shown us, in the Knights trilogy and elsewhere. He's pointing at something, here, and if you were being fairer to Ed, you'd look at the fact that the Council looms and looms throughout this book but doesn't happen, and think the next book might have more to say about nobles. Probably the next several books. Ed's pointing squarely at: this country needs a change. These characters are at Ground Zero when the change starts to happen. This is gonna get sticky...
In other words, adventure.
"Unnecessary verbiage." and "Effectively pruning this novel will undoubtedly make it just a hundred pages or less." Flat disagreement from me, here. Most of the description is dialogue = characterization = why I'm reading Ed in the first place. For me, this is the FUN in this book. You seem (by all means correct me if I'm misreading you here) to want a more linear-plot, action-packed book. I don't, because I can get hundreds of those just by reaching down some of the books I've reviewed from a shelf. I read Ed for the picaresque, the extra verbal and linguistic fun he brings to the table. If you don't, perhaps Ed isn't your cup of tea. That's perfectly okay, but be aware that some readers - - like, ahem, me - - are going to bluntly disagree with your judgments. And consider our own viewpoints every bit as valid as yours.
"Manshoon's ridiculous monologues."
Yep, they are often over the top. Out of character, in fact - - but I spotted that very early on, wondered at this oddity, and read all the subsequent Manshoon "musings" with that in mind. And came to my own conclusion, long before THO confirmed it, that Ed is up to something. Which just makes this book all the more enjoyable to me. (A little hint of Amber-like mystery...hmm...) I submit that your overwhelming dislike of Manshoon just had you gnashing your teeth here, and not considering that Ed might be Up To Something. Or past caring. Fair enough - - but that doesn't make your denigration of Ed more valid than my appreciation of him.
"Mage Royal or Dolt Royal? Targrael's too easy way of freezing him (and his useless servitor) proved the latter." And your point, here? I suspect Ed is reinforcing the "how far the War Wizards have fallen" theme, AND probably following an editorial dictate to get the two highest-ranking War Wizards offstage and out of the story without killing them off (which would make the FRCG outdated right away, and hurt sales of it).
"Lack of clear climax. The story seems to follow a bland, flat plot." A valid criticism for a standalone book, never for book one of six. Let alone when the book DOES have a clear climax, as this one does. You point at it, then say if that's the climax you don't know what to call the other scenes, and that leaves me looking not at the author, but at you. Many, many novels (series novels or not) have multiple climaxes and themes, like this one does (such as the death of a certain villainous noble).
No, Ed isn't following a simple linear path of action, but that's NOT a flaw. This novel is much the richer for having Amarune, Arclath, El and Storm, Alassra, Targrael, the young traitor nobles, Manshoon and his agents, and Mirt all as different threads to follow. If this was a YA novel, and I was in one of my old positions as a YA line editor, I'd want major changes to simplify the book, yes. But it's NOT a YA novel, it's an Ed Greenwood Realms novel . . . and Ed's readers expect lots of characters, lots of dialogue, very realistic mistakes and misunderstandings and side-meanderings (you know, like REAL LIFE is full of, as opposed to following some dramatic, rushing, simple script like an action-adventure movie). In short, the journey is the point, not the destination.
So I voted "Hit." Your mileage almost certainly varies, but . . . that just means we're driving through this novel on different roads.
And you must admit, that's not something that's possible to do with some Realms novels.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:02:11
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| Magnum Opus du jour. Ed hasn't finished writing, y'know. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Magnum Opus du jour. Ed hasn't finished writing, y'know.
I forgot to add 'YET.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:37:04
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Yes, very well said, APL.
I think your points re. the Royal Magician and the Lord Warder can be augmented by another one: that ANOTHER author has plans for those two, and Ed didn't want to hurt their chances/curtail their future story by doing anything with them.
And to dennis's "but where's the newness in it?" comment: both Elminster (who's lost the powers of a Chosen) and Manshoon (who's down to the vampire clone, and obviously under the influence of something or someone) have changed quite a bit from their pre-Spellplague days. THERE'S the newness. Before, El could hand Manshoon his darkly-robed behind whenever their paths crossed and he felt like doing so. Now, things are very different.
If you just hate that villain and want another: Ed's given you several. I find Targrael VERY interesting - - and there's someone else, too; another sinister female (remember?). Not to mention any number of villainous nobles, and some other folks in plain view that I got increasingly suspicious of, as I read the book.
I can't wait to see what Ed does in the next book, though I suspect that it'll be Book 3 before we get to the REAL fireworks (and if what you're really hankering for is Elminster involved in huge blasting spellbattles, I suspect we'll get those by then. In a big way. No, Ed hasn't told me we will, but I can read between the lines, just as APL has).
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:54:26
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| @ APL, your reply merits some pondering time from me. When I find that time, I'll reply to each item you quoted. But this I say about one item that most probably made me judge this book to be a MISS: the unnecessary verbiage. I like and reread Ed's earlier books. For the sake of comparison, I'd like to mention THE MAKING OF THE MAGE. Ed was very verbose in that book, yet I felt that every word had a meaning so significant to the characters and the story, to the point that their overabundance became not a problem. It's the exact opposite of ELMINSTER MUST DIE, and I am not saying this only because I loathe the fact that there are words dedicated to the screen time of the cockroach which I would rather see given to some other worthy characters, but also because I didn't see much sense to over-describing, over-exposing certain events and characters that somehow blurred the central figure of this story: Elminster himself. It appears like it could alternately be called The Cockroach Must Die, Cormyr's Fops Must Die, or The Return of the Nine. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 04 Dec 2010 09:40:02 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 04:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Yes, very well said, APL.
I think your points re. the Royal Magician and the Lord Warder can be augmented by another one: that ANOTHER author has plans for those two, and Ed didn't want to hurt their chances/curtail their future story by doing anything with them.
And to dennis's "but where's the newness in it?" comment: both Elminster (who's lost the powers of a Chosen) and Manshoon (who's down to the vampire clone, and obviously under the influence of something or someone) have changed quite a bit from their pre-Spellplague days. THERE'S the newness. Before, El could hand Manshoon his darkly-robed behind whenever their paths crossed and he felt like doing so. Now, things are very different.
If you just hate that villain and want another: Ed's given you several. I find Targrael VERY interesting - - and there's someone else, too; another sinister female (remember?). Not to mention any number of villainous nobles, and some other folks in plain view that I got increasingly suspicious of, as I read the book.
I can't wait to see what Ed does in the next book, though I suspect that it'll be Book 3 before we get to the REAL fireworks (and if what you're really hankering for is Elminster involved in huge blasting spellbattles, I suspect we'll get those by then. In a big way. No, Ed hasn't told me we will, but I can read between the lines, just as APL has).
love,
THO
You're hinting at future events...So I'd take this opportunity to ask:
Will we see Alassra back on the center stage in BED? You see, I think had Alassra been really active (as opposed to taking the backstage) in EMD, my verdict might have changed drastically. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tremaine
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 18:51:41
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I voted "if I care"
I've not read any more of his novels since Elminster in Myth Drannor as I realised that I just don't enjoy/get his tales outweighed the tales I did like. I've tried too but I guess his just not for me unfortunately so I moved on to different authors to try out some I Love and some I don't get
I think it's because A) I don't get his character's humour/wit unfortunately and B) too many character's for me to keep track off especially when there also masquerade as someone else C) character's who die soon after being introduced
I did enjoy his Making of a Mage novel when Elminster is a thief thought that was a brilliant story and I quite liked his Stormlight Novel too
I don't know if this makes a difference but I've never played D&D and just read the novels so maybe you get more out of his books if you game?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 18:58:15
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| You see things in the books you wouldn't otherwise notice, if you game. Sometimes they add interest, sometimes they cause objection. I think, overall, the books are equally enjoyable either way. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You see things in the books you wouldn't otherwise notice, if you game. Sometimes they add interest, sometimes they cause objection. I think, overall, the books are equally enjoyable either way.
I agree on that highlighted part. I never played D&D, but I used to play Warcraft and read the novels, too. My knowledge of the characters and the setting somehow added to my enjoyment in the novels. But even now that I no longer play - no time and all that - I still ENJOY reading them, except those written by C. Golden [Her Arthas novel was quite a disappointment. I couldn't believe myself that I actually finished it. Reading it was more like a torturous experience, really. ]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 Dec 2010 00:38:38 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 19:33:20
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I disliked "Elminster Must Die!" for a number of reasons. This book did not have a cogent plot. The idea that a "linear narrative" is contrived, and less like real life, as an excuse for this novel is weak, in my opinion. Books and novels aren't real life. If the author has "six books" worth of material, than the author and editor must work to give each book in the series a plot, or plots, and also layer a broader plot through the series. "EMD" fails in this regard, in my opinion.
The use of slap-stick in this novel was out-of-place as well, in my opinion. While I understand that this is something that Ed likes, I'm just not a fan. When an intense knife fight is resolved by a kettle of stew on someones head, and a flustered cook... Meh.
I didn't like how Elminster perpetually complained about his ailing health, but was later able to catch a dagger thrown with lethal force, spin it about the blade, and redirect its flight at another opponent. That was really out of place, in my opinion.
"Chapters" in the book were hardly that... They average less than 11 pages each. In large typeset. And many of these are subdivided yet further with the
--------E--------
Thing.
Too much time in whore houses. I get that the Realms are full of whores; there are more whores in Faerun than on any other continent on any other Prime world anywhere... But it just got loathsome at times. Others may like this type of thing, I found it 'over the top'. But I get it; 'festhouses in the OGB' and all that...
Alassra's mental illness was very poorly portrayed. I would invite Ed to do some field observation with the mentally ill, in an attempt to portray the mentally ill 'realisticly'.
All in all, for me, big Miss.
The author did do a great job of portraying El as a senile, pompous ass with a superiority complex beyind the pale. Even in claiming his succesor, and the 'magics' he used to do so, show Elminster's utter lack of respect for the 'human person'.
By the end of this book, I hated the protagonist. I wanted very much for the men and women of Cormyr to catch this rat in the catecombs (which *must* be the biggest dungeon in the Realms, contrary to prior lore) banish him, and prounounce proudly:
The destiny of Cormyr, aye, all Cormyrians, lie in *their* hands, and is plotted by *their* choices! Take those magic baubles that you can prove are yours, Old Sage, and begone! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 19:43:41
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| I haven't yet read EMD, but your argument could apply equally well to Star Wars or even Lord of the Rings (books or movies). Or really to any trilogy of books or movies released in the last decades. Each part (if taken alone or out of context) is a weak and incomplete story. There is an assumption that the reader/audience will follow through the full story by experiencing them all in sequence. It's hardly fair to criticize Part One when Parts Two through Six aren't even complete. It's also not fair to complain about being "ripped off" by the fact that the first part does not include the entire story. And to be fairer still, it's indeed quite possible that the first book sucks for whatever reason but the subsequent books will more than redeem the entire story (not that I'm saying that, since again, I have not yet read any of it). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2010 19:44:05 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 19:57:17
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I'm just sharing my thoughts. I would disagree, however, that in both Star Wars (IV-VI) and LotR, each installment did have (somewhat) compelling plot for each installment. Same thing with Harry Pothead. While that series got progressivly worse, each installment had a plot, with an over-arching theme.
I think it is completely fair to critique individual installments of a series.
But thank you for sharing your thoughts! |
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Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
