| Author |
 Topic  |
|
heruca
Acolyte
Argentina
5 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 18:12:34
|
Other VTs have been around for at least a decade, and WotC announced their original 3D VT about 4 years ago.
I think GRiP, WebRPG, OpenRPG, and KloogeWerks were among the first VTs, or at least the first to gain significant popularity. |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 21:38:07
|
This may be a case of "too little, too late". 
There is actually a way to pull this off - I'm not going to go into marketing-theory again. What they need to do is convince EVERYONE that this is THE product to use, and there are a few ways of doing that (which will not only put their finger in the proverbial dike, but also give incentive to non-D&D gamers to jump-ship, or 'come-back into the fold'). I unfortunately do not see the business-savvy (nor budget) to do what is needed.
They have to think 'Universal Remote Control', and that's all I'm going to say about that. 
quote:
Originally posted by heruca
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
You mean Altair?
Actually, I was thinking about the store, which I now remember was called 'Lafayette'. Doing a quick web search I found that they are still in-business, although most of them closed in my area in the early 80's.
The point is to go multi-platform (in this case multi-rules), but make it so that the program has far greater functionality for your own ruleset.
In other words, make them yearn for it. As it stands, the only folks that will be trying it will be the folks who have the DDi, which is a demographic they already own! Its pointless from a business-perspective - they need to do something with it to get people who are not already customers to try the damn thing. Right now, as it stands, this product only has potential to turn existing customers off, and zero potential to attract new customers.
The target was missed completely - to be effective, this NEEDED to be released when 4e was released. Handing out oxygen masks the day after the poison gas is released doesn't help 'the victims'... its too late. The best thing to do is hand those masks out to people who weren't affected. This is going to be available to the completely wrong group of people.
And to make myself perfectly clear, I want this to succeed - I am starting two different Essentials groups in two different states, over 900 miles apart! If I can get everyone in on the same game, that would be quite a coup for me.
I complain because I care. If I didn't give a crap about FR and D&D I'd be long gone from here already. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2010 21:40:01 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 06:57:23
|
| I see this VT project as being a hopeful sign. Even if it bombs Wizbro can still recycle the lore, that is, publish it with minimal design time/cost. At least it shows some willingness to experiment and diversify; I think that (provided quality of content is high, the interface is acceptable, and it's not skewered by bugs) it will appeal to a much broader audience than the current DDi sorts (maybe pull some as-yet-untapped WoW/MMORPG players onboard), maybe give D&D a good shot in the arm. Linked HTML and glitzy demo installs travel even faster than word of mouth. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 22:26:32
|
I've tried out Gametable, OpenRPG, Virtual Tabletop, and a few freebies (all found at Battlegounds). Just to get a "feel" for what sorts of tools are out there, not really to comprehensively compare their merits.
I personally prefer the Pen&Paper table style of gaming, it's just more "natural" and interactive for myself and the other grognards in my group. The software can provide quickly referenced amazing databases of lore, though only with immense data entry; I'd personally rather build my own database from a more flexible engine (though many people don't know how to do this, so "TV dinner" databases would suit them well enough). I wouldn't use VTs to resolve combat because they generally have a more restrictive menu of options and results than "table" gaming - but they can be an invaluable tool to test/simulate how your party might fare against BBEG encounters, helpful for tweaking just the right "balance" without risking TPK (or DM TPK-prevention cheating) or feeble pushovers.
Just my opinions. I'm sure that gamers approaching VTs from the MMORPGs would have much the opposite opinion. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 04:14:55
|
As Artie Johnson used to say, "Vewy Interestink..."
Got my Beta pass to try out the VT today. Played around a bit, and they do have it set up that you can choose what rules set you use for your campaign (4th, 3.5, 3rd, 2nd and 1st), but it doesn't actually use those rules when you open the table. It only uses 4E rules. So far, it runs pretty cleanly, using Java (had to open it with IE though, Firefox kept getting errors). Seems to run a little smoother than OpenRPG (although, last time I opened OpenRPG was 6+ months ago), but I don't see anything yet that would make me want to pay for it.
More as I go deeper into my testing. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 11:47:34
|
| Keep us updated Ashe. From the reviews I saw, it looks good. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 22:40:33
|
| virtual tabletob sounds like internet porn to me |
z455t |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:05:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
virtual tabletob sounds like internet porn to me
A lot of fun and an easy way to lose several hours? Or the Da Vinci's Notebook song?   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Nov 2010 23:06:08 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:58:44
|
More like what happens in a porn-movie when folks start-out in the kitchen.
Anyhow, the fact that they have it built-in to choose your edition-of-preference (despite it being currently non-functional) shows me someone over there is REALLY thinking on their feet, and is an immensely wonderful sign.
You make the thing work for all rules, but only show its TRUE STRENGTH when used with the 4e rules. Folks of all shapes and sizes use it... and yearn for that extra power (these are gamers, after-all).
Kudos for business-savvy - a point goes to wotC.
This is what I meant by 'think universal-remote'. You can buy any one, and it will work your TV - at least turn it off and on, and adjust the volume. On them are plenty of other 'kewl buttons' to press, but those will only work with the brand TV that the remote is made by. So if you want to adjust the brightness and contrast (and thereby improve your enjoyment of said product), you need to use the one it was made for.
Get it?
Show them the 'shiney buttons'... but then make them "say the magic word" to get at them (and in this case, the magic-word is Mastercard or Visa).
For this to work (not just the program - the entire plan) it MUST reach a different target-audience then the one they already have, which are the folks playing 4e. You have no idea how thrilled I am to see them moving in the right direction with this.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2010 00:03:56 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:07:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, the fact that they have it built-in to choose your edition-of-preference (despite it being currently non-functional) shows me someone over there is REALLY thinking on their feet, and is an immensely wonderful sign.
Well, I'm not sure if what the plans are for integrating other rules. The "choice" is made when you create the Campaign listing outside of the VT. Kinda like when you're creating a "room" in a online game listing interests for finding players. I'm hopeful that they'd integrate old rules into the VT, but right now the "character sheet" in the game only has listings for stats/skills/powers/etc. for 4E characters. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:41:58
|
They NEED to make it appeal to a wider audience - I just hope they realize this. Building a product - no matter how wonderful - that only appeals to your existing customers is counter-productive.
They needn't give-away the whole pie - just enough to wet the appetites of those people playing 'other systems'. Its like drug-dealing - if you want them to buy your product, you have to give away some 'free samples' first (get 'em hooked, and real 'em in)
They also need to put a little 'glitz' into the finished product - older people will take quality over eye-candy, but its that 'eye-candy' that going to get the younger people to look at it in the first place.
I can't wait to see how far they go with this - it has TONS of potential. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2010 00:42:13 |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 12:10:48
|
| Very well said Markus. You should be working for Hasbro/Wizards in the marketing department |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 12:52:21
|
| Forget marketing. Buy enough shares to become a menace on the board of directors, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 14:04:22
|
Everyone is missing the biggest part of the pie. WotC controls the IP and thus we will likely see full-integration of their product. Unlike OpenRPG and others, you will not have to go in and create your own variables and controls to best match the system. The system (4e) will already be integrated. This is where they are going to rocket above all others. I'm waiting on my beta invite, but from the videos I have seen and the people I've talked to, this thing should be awesome.
And look, I prefer Pen & Paper whenever possible. That being said, I love that I will have the chance to play D&D with my older brother and his kids-- who reside clear across the country in Seattle! For this reason alone, this product is awesome. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 01:28:31
|
But Matt, you do understand what I am saying, right?
Making existing customers happy isn't a very lucrative business-model. Sure, word-of-mouth and all of that, but what you need is some good, ol' fashioned 'snake oil'. Wow EVERYONE with the 'kewl shiney', but then only make the built-in game engine functional for folks running a D&D game.
Minimum functionality for alternate rules is a MUST in order to get non-D&D gamers to try it. Eventually they will want to 'push the big, red button', and they will pay.
How was Paizo able to steal such a large market-share of this niche genre? Because they offered a product that people already tried and liked. You can't steal market-share if no-one tries your product. It could be the greatest thing since OD&D was created, but if people don't give it a try (and a LOT of anti-4e people won't), then its a lame duck.
I play a LOT of Facebook games - study their (Zynga) business model. the games are FREE... but if you want the 'kewl stuff' you got to buy it with REAL money. This business-model was accidentally created/discovered during the reign of Diablo2 - players were selling in-game items for REAL MONEY on E-Bay!
I know... my son made me buy him some armor.... 
Savy people realized that stupid humans were willing to pay for pixels on their screen with REAL, hard-earned cash. ALL the FB games do it now - you can buy 'Facebook dollars', and buy all sorts of neat things to use in your games.
D&D needs to do something similar (and GODS NO, don't open a 'magic shop' and start selling the min-maxers quantity-discount Staves of the Magi) - you need to have a very simple, basic RPG platform that will scale to most systems, and then provide MUCH greater functionality if the DDi is paid for and the D&D rules applied. You have to get them to try it, otherwise its destined to fail from the launch (no matter how great it is).
On a slightly different note:
A 30-day FREE trial might work, 60 would be better - once someone is that involved with their character, they will loathe parting with them - Disney games like Toontown and Wizards101 use this model... and YES, I have played both of those as well (and they were highly addictive).
While it is true that maybe only 1-in-10 people will continue their game subscription after you start charging them, it is still better to get 1,000,000 people to try it then 10,000 (because the million might give you a permanent group of 100,000 that stick around).
WotC needs to give people the incentive to try their products, and having a good product doesn't necessarily mean that will happen. Put and add on FB with the word 'free game' on it, and see how many hits you generate - its all about marketing. I used to play a wargame called Evony (also free), and almost everyone I knew who played clicked on the picture of the 'hot chick' that said 'Adult Game'... which had absolutely NOTHING to do with Evony.
yet we stayed... and played...
And they also sold you 'Evony money' to buy in-game items.
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way.
Don't worry about 'truth in advertising' - that doesn't sell games (or anything else for that matter). You need to hook the fish you haven't even thought of yet, and there are a LOT of lonely people spending their money on silly Facebook games. Build it and they will come. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2010 01:43:29 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 03:53:12
|
I wanted to apologize for a lack of updates on the free trial. I got the official job offer last week and have been running around (almost) non-stop setting up the move, packing for the move back to PA, going through the last week of work, getting ready to start my new job on January 3rd and basically just walking around like I've been kissed by THO for the last week and a half.
Once things settle down a bit, I promise to beat the Virtual Table with a large stick and report on what candy spills out. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 19 Dec 2010 03:54:32 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 04:35:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I wanted to apologize for a lack of updates on the free trial. I got the official job offer last week and have been running around (almost) non-stop setting up the move, packing for the move back to PA, going through the last week of work, getting ready to start my new job on January 3rd and basically just walking around like I've been kissed by THO for the last week and a half.
Once things settle down a bit, I promise to beat the Virtual Table with a large stick and report on what candy spills out.
You wouldn't happen to be moving to the Pittsburgh area would you?  |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 06:04:23
|
Allentown area. Sorry man.
Drove through there today, though... Apparently you have a baseball team? I didn't know they were still playing... (That was a joke, btw.) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 07:27:22
|
quote:
Markustay
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way.
I disagree with this advice; if you mean D&D then say D&D. There is no shame in being a D&D nerd. (Nerds are rich, powerful, cool, and get the hottest women these days anyhow.) ... lol, not so long ago googling "fantasy role playing games" would offer results that were most definitely unrelated to D&D ... |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 21:52:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Markustay
Oh, and don't say 'D&D' on Facebook (no-one will click on it) - say something like 'Free adult fantasy game' - guaranteed you'll get more kids to click on the ad that way.
I disagree with this advice; if you mean D&D then say D&D. There is no shame in being a D&D nerd. (Nerds are rich, powerful, cool, and get the hottest women these days anyhow.) ... lol, not so long ago googling "fantasy role playing games" would offer results that were most definitely unrelated to D&D ...
I think Markus was highlighting the ADULT part to get their attention. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Virtual Table Top
