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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 21:29:54
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D&D Virtual Table Top going to Beta
It's a closed, invite-only Beta test, but they are saying they may opening the test up to DDI subscribers later on. The biggest difference I'm seeing right now (although it may be added back in later) is the removal of the "Character Mini" and 3-D views. It looks a lot more like other 2D table-tops out there. Still, it is a step away from the Vaporware it was becoming.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 18 Nov 2010 21:46:17
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 21:39:02
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Cool.
Now could someone fix that link!!!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 18 Nov 2010 22:09:28 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 21:45:58
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| Better late than never, so good on WOTC for getting this at least on the road to being finished. I don't have a DDI subscription, nor plan on getting one, but I really do hope this takes off and does well for everyone out there who has been waiting months(and years?) for this program to appear at all, even in a 2D only beta stage. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 21:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Cool.
Now could someone fix that link!!!!
My bad... been spending too much time on non-Candlekeep forums.
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Better late than never, so good on WOTC for getting this at least on the road to being finished. I don't have a DDI subscription, nor plan on getting one, but I really do hope this takes off and does well for everyone out there who has been waiting months(and years?) for this program to appear at all, even in a 2D only beta stage.
I read a bit in a forum post and the reaction over at WotC has been ... mixed. There are already some complaining because WotC will be charging for the VT (it's actually just Virtual Table now), and it is not being integrated with the Character and Monster builders at this time. Not sure if the VT will be charged separately from a DDI subscription or even cost extra, but the complaint there is that there are free VTTs that look and do the same. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 18 Nov 2010 21:49:33 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 22:10:48
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Thanks!!!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 22:30:02
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| Ouch, that's going to cost extra? Maybe not so good on WotC then when there's programs like OpenRPG that are 2D but free, though OpenRPG is a bit of a pain to use. Ah well, it's still a step up from no program at all, but I think having it be part of a DDI subscription would be a necessity, having it be charged on top of what they charge for DDI won't win them a lot of friends, nor will having features be left out at the start with the promise of being added later considering their track record. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 23:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I read a bit in a forum post and the reaction over at WotC has been ... mixed. There are already some complaining because WotC will be charging for the VT (it's actually just Virtual Table now), and it is not being integrated with the Character and Monster builders at this time. Not sure if the VT will be charged separately from a DDI subscription or even cost extra, but the complaint there is that there are free VTTs that look and do the same.
I've been saying since WotC first mentioned a virtual tabletop that it was something they needed more than anything else... I still maintain that it would have done more to revitalize the game than any new ruleset ever could have...
So not integrating with the Builders is not, to me, a big deal. Personally, I'm thinking the less that is automatically built in, the better.
I'm kinda surprised this has come back around, though. I'd assumed it was something that we were never going to see. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 01:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I read a bit in a forum post and the reaction over at WotC has been ... mixed. There are already some complaining because WotC will be charging for the VT (it's actually just Virtual Table now), and it is not being integrated with the Character and Monster builders at this time. Not sure if the VT will be charged separately from a DDI subscription or even cost extra, but the complaint there is that there are free VTTs that look and do the same.
I've been saying since WotC first mentioned a virtual tabletop that it was something they needed more than anything else... I still maintain that it would have done more to revitalize the game than any new ruleset ever could have...
So not integrating with the Builders is not, to me, a big deal. Personally, I'm thinking the less that is automatically built in, the better.
I'm kinda surprised this has come back around, though. I'd assumed it was something that we were never going to see.
The FAQ has said that the Character/Monster storage tools will be for 4th Edition only, the other tools of the VT (dice-roller, map tiles, tokens, etc.) will available for other editions. So if you want to use it for other editions/games, you're not going to be able to import character or monster statistics. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 01:07:38
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The expression 'grasping at straws' comes to mind.
If people can do this already for free, they would be insane to charge for it (because they will be killing it before it even gets off the ground).
What they need to do is start giving away LOTS of things for free to create hype, but since they are owned by a corporation that is beholden to shareholders (who only care about 'profit margins') they will never be given permission to do exactly what D&D needs right now - a shot in the arm. 4e is just not generating the buzz it needs to be successful. Hell, they even considered not going to Gencon anymore because of the costs involved (which would be the nail in the coffin, me thinks).
IMHO, of course.
I'm just getting the feeling that their hands (read: budget) are being tied on a lot of things - the Virtual Tabletop was supposed to be FREE, and supposed to be released soon after 4e came out (which was one of 4e selling points). This is just a mess. 
And without any 'glitz' (2D?! in 2010?!) it just ain't gonna go over big with 'the kiddies'. kids will take one look and go running back to Wizards101 (a damn addictive, albeit silly, little game). 'Eye Candy' sells products, NOT good products (although that certainly helps amongst the non-target grognard audience).
Quality only keeps folks coming back - it doesn't make the initial sale. 2D interfaces and circa 1980 artwork isn't going to impress anybody - they don't need designers over there, they need a used car salesman who knows how to peddle the snake-oil. Marketing is the KEY to success, and they are falling WAY short. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 02:04:28
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| I'm still not understanding why Hasbro creates a new cartoon channel for the express purpose of selling their toys (Hub) and they are NOT even discussing a D&D cartoon. <sigh> |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 14:19:10
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| If I were a betting man, I would state that all of the tools are going to (eventually) easily integrate with the Virtual Table product. Once they bridge that gap, that's going to be a monster for any competitor to compete with. The ability to point-and-click and build online encounters and integrate characters? Wow, they are going to have a BEAST of a product. |
Edited by - Matt James on 19 Nov 2010 14:20:24 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 16:12:47
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I think it's also worth pointing out that it hasn't been laziness or lack of foresight that's kept them from putting this together sooner--there are issues involved at a high level that we don't know much about, and are entirely beyond WotC's (or even Hasbro's) control. The fact that they're actively moving on this is, to me, a very good sign.
(And no, I'm not going to elaborate, only to say there are secondary considerations.)
Sorry that was so vague, but trust me--they are trying as hard as they can to get this out and have it be a quality product. And if they make it a quality/smooth product, then even if they charge for it, I still see it as competitive with clunkier free products. I'm one of the fortunates in the beta test, so we'll see.
I agree with Matt and believe that all the tools will eventually integrate with the VTT.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 21:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
If I were a betting man, I would state that all of the tools are going to (eventually) easily integrate with the Virtual Table product. Once they bridge that gap, that's going to be a monster for any competitor to compete with. The ability to point-and-click and build online encounters and integrate characters? Wow, they are going to have a BEAST of a product.
I personally feel that they'd be better off not tying the VT too closely to D&D... Sure, make it work great for 4E, by all means. But if they make it where it can easily be used for other gaming systems, then it would be a true killer app -- because then they can get money from all gamers, not just the ones playing 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 23:52:55
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I think that would require some work for no benefit to WotC. Quite frankly they don't want people playing older D&D editions, Pathfinder, Savage World, or any other RPG system, they want them playing 4e and essentials. That isn't because they are 'evil' or anything, it's simply because they are in the business of selling 4e, not to spread the RPG hobby and encourage people to buy competing products.
What they might do, and what I would do in their situation, is use a long closed, then open beta testing time to work out the VT kinks and finish up the character, monster, campaign, and encounter builders or whatever other etools they have planned. Then they should make integration their first priority after the VT is released so that 4e D&D will have a tool so shiny and awesome that even people who turned away from 4e will admit it is a great product, and new players will have a pretty hefty incentive to join 4e, buying books and subscriptions that will all go to WotC. If they develop this product and allow any game system to work fully with it they may gain slightly more revenue from other gamers who use their VT to play, but on the other hand they may not. By now people who really want to play by virtual table top have found a 2d solution that works for them and without tying the VT to the other tools, as it likely will at some point with the 4e tools out there or in development, what about it would be good enough to be worth leaving a free virtual table top and paying for a DDI subscription?
All that said it would be nice if WotC did allow it to be used with any RPG system, especially if they packaged the VT on its own and separate from a DDI subscription, I just don't see how it would be in their interest to do so. |
Edited by - idilippy on 19 Nov 2010 23:54:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I think that would require some work for no benefit to WotC. Quite frankly they don't want people playing older D&D editions, Pathfinder, Savage World, or any other RPG system, they want them playing 4e and essentials. That isn't because they are 'evil' or anything, it's simply because they are in the business of selling 4e, not to spread the RPG hobby and encourage people to buy competing products.
What they might do, and what I would do in their situation, is use a long closed, then open beta testing time to work out the VT kinks and finish up the character, monster, campaign, and encounter builders or whatever other etools they have planned. Then they should make integration their first priority after the VT is released so that 4e D&D will have a tool so shiny and awesome that even people who turned away from 4e will admit it is a great product, and new players will have a pretty hefty incentive to join 4e, buying books and subscriptions that will all go to WotC. If they develop this product and allow any game system to work fully with it they may gain slightly more revenue from other gamers who use their VT to play, but on the other hand they may not. By now people who really want to play by virtual table top have found a 2d solution that works for them and without tying the VT to the other tools, as it likely will at some point with the 4e tools out there or in development, what about it would be good enough to be worth leaving a free virtual table top and paying for a DDI subscription?
All that said it would be nice if WotC did allow it to be used with any RPG system, especially if they packaged the VT on its own and separate from a DDI subscription, I just don't see how it would be in their interest to do so.
So you think WotC selling a product to a limited pool of gamers is better than selling to the entire pool? That's logic I fail to understand...
You tie it to 4E, you're only selling to 4E players. You don't tie it to any system, you sell it to people playing 4E, 3.5E, 2E, 1E, OD&D, Runequest, Werewolf the Apocalypes, Pathfinder, Warmachine, Tunnels & Trolls, etc.
Online gaming isn't huge because of graphics or gameplay... Online gaming is huge because any person can sit down at any time and use an already-existing multipurpose tool to play whatever game they want for however long they want. A virtual gaming table not tied to any specific game would allow all those pen and paper players who otherwise aren't able to game to find other players and play their favorite game.
Tying it to 4E only gets 4E gamers to the table. I want to bring all gamers to the table. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Nov 2010 04:04:18 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I think that would require some work for no benefit to WotC. Quite frankly they don't want people playing older D&D editions, Pathfinder, Savage World, or any other RPG system, they want them playing 4e and essentials. That isn't because they are 'evil' or anything, it's simply because they are in the business of selling 4e, not to spread the RPG hobby and encourage people to buy competing products.
What they might do, and what I would do in their situation, is use a long closed, then open beta testing time to work out the VT kinks and finish up the character, monster, campaign, and encounter builders or whatever other etools they have planned. Then they should make integration their first priority after the VT is released so that 4e D&D will have a tool so shiny and awesome that even people who turned away from 4e will admit it is a great product, and new players will have a pretty hefty incentive to join 4e, buying books and subscriptions that will all go to WotC. If they develop this product and allow any game system to work fully with it they may gain slightly more revenue from other gamers who use their VT to play, but on the other hand they may not. By now people who really want to play by virtual table top have found a 2d solution that works for them and without tying the VT to the other tools, as it likely will at some point with the 4e tools out there or in development, what about it would be good enough to be worth leaving a free virtual table top and paying for a DDI subscription?
All that said it would be nice if WotC did allow it to be used with any RPG system, especially if they packaged the VT on its own and separate from a DDI subscription, I just don't see how it would be in their interest to do so.
So you think WotC selling a product to a limited pool of gamers is better than selling to the entire pool? That's logic I fail to understand...
You tie it to 4E, you're only selling to 4E players. You don't tie it to any system, you sell it to people playing 4E, 3.5E, 2E, 1E, OD&D, Runequest, Werewolf the Apocalypes, Pathfinder, Warmachine, Tunnels & Trolls, etc.
Online gaming isn't huge because of graphics or gameplay... Online gaming is huge because any person can sit down at any time and use an already-existing multipurpose tool to play whatever game they want for however long they want. A virtual gaming table not tied to any specific game would allow all those pen and paper players who otherwise aren't able to game to find other players and play their favorite game.
Tying it to 4E only gets 4E gamers to the table. I want to bring all gamers to the table.
Not too mention, if you tie it only to 4E gamers, you're not even going to get ALL the 4E gamers, just the ones that would like to play over the internet. So, it's a subset of a group you're already selling to. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:54:53
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I'm saying that putting out a product not tied to 4e and not integrated with all the 4e developed tools WotC is coming up with is of no benefit to wizards. If they put out a generic virtual table top and nothing else then they are a step behind Fantasy Grounds, Maptools, OpenRPG, and other virtual tabletops that have been providing the same thing for years. What WotC is going to have that none of those will is the fact that their VT, if they are smart at all, will be fully integrated with the Character Builder, Monster Builder, and other 4e specific tools and will also, again if they are smart, track all those dozens of situational combat bonuses and penalties 4e has. My opinion, and it could be wrong, is that they are going to focus their effort on making their VT run smoothly and effectively integrate with their other online tools.
I personally feel they will have their hands full creating a program that runs their 4e system fully and without problems, much less integrates smoothly with their character builder, so they can provide the best experience to the people they want to buy their books. The more they try and generalize their product to the point where any rule system is fully supported the less 4e specific features they can add to it to entice the audience they want, people who will buy the 4e books. If they could make a program that runs 4e perfectly and can be switched to also work perfectly with any other game system that would be great, but I think they are going to focus on the 4e end, with other RPG support being incidental.
Why doesn't someone ask them about VT expected compatibility with other RPG systems on the WotC site though? I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong and have someone from wizards say it will be easily usable with other RPG systems, I just see things in their history, like the pull of old edition .pdfs, that points to an attitude of pushing 4e only even at the loss of a revenue stream that was pure profit at that point.
Edit: double post, sorry |
Edited by - idilippy on 20 Nov 2010 05:01:52 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 05:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Why doesn't someone ask them about VT expected compatibility with other RPG systems on the WotC site though? I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong and have someone from wizards say it will be easily usable with other RPG systems, I just see things in their history, like the pull of old edition .pdfs, that points to an attitude of pushing 4e only even at the loss of a revenue stream that was pure profit at that point.
As I pointed out before, the FAQ touches on this:
quote:
Q: What versions of D&D is the VT designed to be used with?
A: The character and monster information storage portion of the VT is set up to be used in 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. The rest of the tools can be used with any edition.
So other editions/games will only be able to access dice rolling, map tiles, tokens and such. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 05:49:38
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| Ah, ok. Sorry I guess I must have missed that post somehow. So I guess if any system can use it's basic functions they aren't just purely going for the 4e community, though 4e players will get get the best benefit from it. So cool, now we just wait and see if it turns out to be much more useful than another virtual table and how much it'll end up costing. |
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heruca
Acolyte
Argentina
5 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 11:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally feel that they'd be better off not tying the VT too closely to D&D... Sure, make it work great for 4E, by all means. But if they make it where it can easily be used for other gaming systems, then it would be a true killer app -- because then they can get money from all gamers, not just the ones playing 4E.
There are already a number of virtual tabletop programs that are RPG-system-agnostic (some are even free). One is even flexible enough to handle not just RPGs, but also boardgames, wargames, card games, and dice games. Yes, for a gamer, that should be a "killer app". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 13:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Why doesn't someone ask them about VT expected compatibility with other RPG systems on the WotC site though? I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong and have someone from wizards say it will be easily usable with other RPG systems, I just see things in their history, like the pull of old edition .pdfs, that points to an attitude of pushing 4e only even at the loss of a revenue stream that was pure profit at that point.
As I pointed out before, the FAQ touches on this:
quote:
Q: What versions of D&D is the VT designed to be used with?
A: The character and monster information storage portion of the VT is set up to be used in 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. The rest of the tools can be used with any edition.
So other editions/games will only be able to access dice rolling, map tiles, tokens and such.
Add in a white board and integrated chat, and you don't need much more. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 14:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by heruca
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally feel that they'd be better off not tying the VT too closely to D&D... Sure, make it work great for 4E, by all means. But if they make it where it can easily be used for other gaming systems, then it would be a true killer app -- because then they can get money from all gamers, not just the ones playing 4E.
There are already a number of virtual tabletop programs that are RPG-system-agnostic (some are even free). One is even flexible enough to handle not just RPGs, but also boardgames, wargames, card games, and dice games. Yes, for a gamer, that should be a "killer app".
The difference, I think, is that most people haven't even heard of these... WotC announced their VT and people were discussing it before I knew there were any other ones out there... WotC, with its prominence, could offer the exact same thing as any of those others, and have it be more successful simply because WotC's name would make more people aware of it.
If WotC does this right, and markets it right, it has some serious potential. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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heruca
Acolyte
Argentina
5 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 14:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The difference, I think, is that most people haven't even heard of these... WotC announced their VT and people were discussing it before I knew there were any other ones out there... WotC, with its prominence, could offer the exact same thing as any of those others, and have it be more successful simply because WotC's name would make more people aware of it.
If WotC does this right, and markets it right, it has some serious potential.
Oh, I completely agree. WotC's VT offering could offer just a bare minimum of functionality, but as long as it's got that official WotC/D&D logo and they put their marketing department on it, their VT will immediately snatch up a larger portion of the VT market than all other 60 or so VTs combined. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 17:01:26
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| I've never really heard of VTs prior to this scroll. I'd like to try one or two (freebies) out to judge the merits of this approach. Any comments or recommendations? |
[/Ayrik] |
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heruca
Acolyte
Argentina
5 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 17:50:06
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| Gametable is supposedly the easiest (and most basic) of the free VTTs, so you might want to start there. Follow the link in my previous post to find the download link for Gametable. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 18:42:59
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A first reading I thought Wolly's point was silly (sorry  ), but on further consideration I offer you the 'Radio Shack' model as an example.
In the 1970's, Radio Shack was THE premiere electronics store - they were practically untouchable (there was one other chain, IIRC, but I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
But they didn't - the people making the decisions decided that going 'propriety', and manufacturing parts that only worked with their machines (rather then produce boards that fit the more generic 'IBM compatible' model) was the way to go. Although the parts were technically spec'd the same, they purposely made their cases and boards under-sized so competing parts wouldn't fit.
And they, and their computer business, tanked. They now peddle cheesy electronic toys like clapping monkeys and shooting robots around the Holidays, but are otherwise practically 'out-of-business' (and they also failed to jump on the cellphone market until WAY too late).
Propriety killed them, and nearly killed Apple Computers (did you know it was Bill Gates who saved Apple? True fact - he gave them millions to float them, so as to avoid being a 'monopoly').
So in that light, I can see Wooly's point (and since I believe he works with computers, he may have had these same thoughts). On the other hand, Microsoft, which went with 'one size fits all' generic software (which never ran nearly as good as Apple's, but that didn't matter) wound up ruling the roost (they have their own problems now, due to brain-drain and something called 'maximum saturation', but that's beside the point).
@ Erik and Matt - I only hope you are right, and I do not blame them for the crippling* delay of the software - I am well-aware of the tragic events that they could not have predicted, which while sad for the people involved, was devastating to their release-date plans. Had the virtual table-top been ready at 4e's release, and fully integrated with a virtual dungeon, I think it would have been PURE win.
Amazing how much effect one life can have on so many people - one of those 'butterfly effect' moments. 
Anyhow, if they can get this done, they may still have a winner on their hands. The Grognard in me really detests that people won't need to get together in-person anymore (sell your Doritos stock!), but I realize the times, they are a'changin'.
*Crippling, as in I think it had exactly that affect on 4e's release. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2010 18:47:03 |
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heruca
Acolyte
Argentina
5 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 19:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't even recall their name beyond that I 'think' it began with an 'L'). They were the very first company out-the-door with a Home computer. (in 1979! I know... I had one). You would think they were ideally poised to take over the world in the fledgling home-computer market.
You mean Altair? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 20:00:38
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Ah, the Z80 days. Good times. I can't say I agree entirely with all the details and examples you present, Markus (though Radio Shack sucks for parts-shopping these days), but I know what you're saying. I also see that the way you see these particular examples is a valid analysis from your particular perspective of a larger picture that nobody (including you or I) will ever fully understand or agree upon.
Computing - hardware and software - has always been more about compatibility than standards. Popular products (like SoundBlaster, Pentium, Windows, PKWare/WinZip) become de-facto standards against which competing and often superior products (Ultrasound, AMD, linux, WinRAR) are measured and driven. People often villainize the corporate greed which engineers proprietary technologies (iPhones, Blu-Ray) without weighing the positive aspects these toys provide. Everybody (you and I included) has a thousand opinions on these subjects.
Insofar as VT software goes, easy intercompatibility across all common platforms is definitely a huge advantage that will appeal to a wider market. Some degree of proprietary (semi-non-compatibility, ie: unique format) assures that piracy won't kill the product prematurely. As much as we all love D&D, we must reluctantly acknowledge that it's not a charity and pay the price of sustaining it. I'd hate to see this "risky" VT project/venture get blasted into a ghostly undead existence by the same heavy-handed knee-jerk blunderbuss thundershot that killed the pdfs; I'd rather have a living, thriving, growing product. It's not an impossible model, MMORPGs have done something of the sort for years. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2010 20:14:09 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:16:19
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I'm mildly surprised that they went back and restarted work on a VTT given the experience they had the first time around with Gleemax and the DOA first VTT and tens of millions down the drain.
The new one from the screenshots looks to have been done from scratch and very much scaled back from the original one which would have had 3d miniatures, etc. It's a more realistic product, but I have to wonder if the commercial viability hasn't already vanished because since the first VTT crashed and burned there are multiple VTTs out there, some of them free, and some of them as good or arguably better looking than the preview from WotC. Plus the potentially small pool of interest at this stage of 4e's lifecycle. Only if they integrate it with the other tools will it really have much chance of competition with the other VTTs out there in a very crowded, perhaps limited, marketplace.
It being released in the middle of the blowback from the release of the online CB too isn't giving it a perfect reception, and from what I've seen online a lot of skepticism. This will be interesting to see develop. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:38:05
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| Yeah, it seems to be an idea past its prime. The appeal of the Wizbro offering would be continuous lore updates as part of the subscription price, I imagine. Even that can only slow piracy rather than prevent it; but I think a lot of dedicated fans would pay the premium to have that advantage (and buy into the eternal "call-the-mothership" trap if Wizbro wants to be paranoid about it). My big questions have been asked in this thread before: would the VT be able to support previous rules editions or force us to buy whatever Wizbro thinks is latest/greatest? Would it offer any user-configuration or plugin support to add customized (homebrew and 3rd-party) content? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 15:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'm mildly surprised that they went back and restarted work on a VTT given the experience they had the first time around with Gleemax and the DOA first VTT and tens of millions down the drain.
The new one from the screenshots looks to have been done from scratch and very much scaled back from the original one which would have had 3d miniatures, etc. It's a more realistic product, but I have to wonder if the commercial viability hasn't already vanished because since the first VTT crashed and burned there are multiple VTTs out there, some of them free, and some of them as good or arguably better looking than the preview from WotC. Plus the potentially small pool of interest at this stage of 4e's lifecycle. Only if they integrate it with the other tools will it really have much chance of competition with the other VTTs out there in a very crowded, perhaps limited, marketplace.
It being released in the middle of the blowback from the release of the online CB too isn't giving it a perfect reception, and from what I've seen online a lot of skepticism. This will be interesting to see develop.
As I understand it, there have been other virtual tabletops out there for a few years -- there were even ones already in existence when WotC initially announced they were going to do one.
I think that those other VTs suffer from a lack of prominence, though. WotC, as the big kid in the gaming industry, has the prominence to make one successful. As long as WotC puts its name on a VT, that VT will get a lot more attention than any others.
I do agree that it's a little odd that after years of silence on the topic, WotC suddenly pops up and says its coming. I'd assumed that this was going to forever remain vaporware. |
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Virtual Table Top
