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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 05:23:45
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I think a big reason why FR novels and sourcebooks about drow have sold so well throughout the years is in large part due to the many believable (as opposed to contrived) female villains. Seriously, from at least 'typical' hetero male's POV, there's another dimension of thoughts and emotions that arise when dealing w/an attractive female villain, that will not or will have a hard time arising, in most cases, when dealing w/a male villain. Such as thoughts/feelings of arousal, peace, empathy and even flirtations, much like the same feelings that arise when dealing w/nymphs and dryads (as opposed to their male counterparts in the wilderness eg.-satyrs), all funnelling their way through how the 'typical' male reader or male protagonist views and feels about the attractive female villain. The human male protagonist in Ed's Dark Warrior Rising goes through these type of bouts regarding his sexy drow female oppressors. 
And from a 'typical' hetero female's POV, I reckon the additional dimensions of thoughts and emotions that arise when dealing w/female villains are ones that deal w/their own securities/insecurities vs. the villains confidence or 'show' of confidence.
Edit: Hot damn Cassana seems vicious, and believeable! I had never heard of her before! |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 09 Nov 2010 06:07:14 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 05:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd like to see more of Scyllua... But my fave FR villianess would be Cassana. She destroyed her lover, kept him around as a lich under her near-total domination, and then had to tease him by creating a physically younger version of herself that was also an unknowing and dominated assassin.
In terms of sheer deliberate emotional cruelty -- which I find more evil than generic conquest/rulership-type evil -- Cassana puts the other ladies on the list to shame.
I'll second this. Because I've always wanted to see more of what her early years with Zrie were like. I know of few individuals who've been described as falling "madly" in love [with the emphasis on "madly"]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 06:30:00
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| In Daughter of the Drow and the WotSQ, I almost wanted Gromph and his underlings to succeed in toppling the female-centered system of their society; but I realized we'd see yet again another male-governed realm. So though I prefer wizards to priests/priestesses, I was still glad that at the end the cruel priestesses continued to rule. If the wizards were females and the worshipers of Lloth males, I would favor the wizards. (Besides, almost all drow are villains.) So as long as the females are given long-enough exposure, highlight, or ample consideration, I'm fine with it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 08:15:52
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They're united in the zulkirs-unite-if-it-suits-them way.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 08:36:09
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I gotta go with Iyraclea here.
Ed's canon overtakes book canon IMHO, if only because Ed is consistent and the books lack that sometimes.
As an example, though she seems to do nothing at all, remember the area she controls, the Great Glacier is almost the size of Faerun itself, and would cover the entire northern half of the continent and most of the Sea of Fallen Stars it overlaps.
Now, I know it's not particularly heavily inhabited, but there ARE people and creatures there, and the Ice Queen practically has absolute dominion over ALL of it, and I'm inclined to think she controls the weather there too, as part of her Chosen powers.
I think, on her own turf, she COULD go toe-to-toe with Larloch, who despite his vast arcane might couldn't indefinitely face the force of an entire sub-continent coming down on him led by a foe that is arguably of his caliber magic-wise (though divine and not arcane admittedly). |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 09:04:29
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I had read The Ruin long before I learned from Ed that Iyraclea is strong enough to challenge Larloch. It kinda didn't make sense at first... Sammaster effortlessly ridded her servants and made a blatant 'mockery' of her power when he went to visit her in her own fortress. And to add to the 'insult,' she could not even defeat his 'minion,' Zethrindor. And needless to say, both Sammaster and Zethrindor are just insignificant flies if compared to Larloch. So how can someone who cannot beat Larloch's inferiors hope to stand a chance against him? Buuut, let's remember that first and foremost, Iyralcea was a PRIESTESS. Ergo, 99.9 percent of her power came from Auril herself. We can simply speculate on her inability to defeat her foes and her eventual demise... Maybe Auril gave her an important task prior to the events in the YoRD, a task she failed to do; and thus Auril saw her unworthy to be a High Priestess. She would still hear her prayers, and she did, for servants she needed. But she would no longer grant her more power than she deserved. Or maybe Auril simply found another priestess (or priest) worthy to replace the Ice Queen. Or perhaps we can just credit it to the author's 'artistic liberty.'
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 10:26:28
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I think artistic license is right in Iyraclea's case. She was required to look like a chump to show off how "serious" certain villains are. Happens in TV and comics a lot really: it's called the "Worf Effect" when a powerful character gets tossed around to show how badass another is.
In Salvatore's writing the drow are over and over again said to be among the most skilled fighters in all the Realms and Underdark alike, yet in-game they die in droves to mildy experienced or smart combat-based PC's (I think in one game the party I was with managed to rack up a whopping total of 80 drow kills over the course of five different very long encounters).
What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.
Ed on the other hand is consistent in what he says about the setting, which would make sense as it is HIS setting.
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"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 10:30:08
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I find it notable that Sammaster was currently the main bad guy what with the Rage going on at the time, so it was basically time to show how badass he was: if there was a DIFFERENT storyline going on involving say....Iyraclea invading with the power of Auril from the Great Glacier, why I'm certain she'd be kicking arse all over the Realms to look cool  . |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 13:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.
This is one of the problems in a shared-world setting. Though I can say it need not be. Assign one, two, or a group of 'overseers' to ensure consistency in the novels... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Nov 2010 14:16:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 02:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.
This is one of the problems in a shared-world setting. Though I can say it need not be. Assign one, two, or a group of 'overseers' to ensure consistency in the novels...
They had such a position, in 2E. So far as I know, when 3E came out, they no longer had a designated "traffic cop" for the setting.
There's a statement in that, I think. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 03:05:45
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| And they removed that position because they thought 'tis okay to be inconsistent so long as the novels sell? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 03:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
And they removed that position because they thought 'tis okay to be inconsistent so long as the novels sell?
We have no information as to why they decided they no longer needed someone to monitor continuity. All we can do is speculate. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 07:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO
Very few 'views' of the Simbul can suprise those who've seen her, considering how much of her one can 'view'...
Seriosuly though, I rather agree. I mean, without spoiling anything, I'm not certain what El's doing in ELminster Must Die is 'good'. And it could easily develop into something 'evil'. But that's the beauty of Ed's writing, as our Lady said: Everybody's shades of gray. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 11:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO
Very few 'views' of the Simbul can suprise those who've seen her, considering how much of her one can 'view'...
Seriosuly though, I rather agree. I mean, without spoiling anything, I'm not certain what El's doing in ELminster Must Die is 'good'. And it could easily develop into something 'evil'. But that's the beauty of Ed's writing, as our Lady said: Everybody's shades of gray.
To quote El in Elminster Must Die!:
"Lad, lad, there are no good people and bad people - there are just people, doing things others deem good or bad." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 00:12:59
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Isn't it time to see an archvillainess who is in "shades of gray"? LE is the common alignment of villains, even if their actions sometimes (inadvertently) caused something good to the greater populace. CE, I think, is way better. Anilya, from The Shield of Weeping Ghosts, comes to mind. She deserves the crown of archvillainy. (But that judgment is subject to change: I'm still halfway through the book.)
The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 20:02:20
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| Quenthel Baenre |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 12:51:26
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If Quenthel were to be an archvillainess, I'd like to see her expand her domain to the surface world.
----
I think it's better if the archvillainess specializes in something that was rarely exploited in the past, like illusion.
A female phaerimm would also work, I guess. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 15:58:09
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I voted Scyllua in the poll, in honor of the entire novel concept I devised with her as the archvillainess/love interest of the main *good* protagonist. Sadly, said novel never actually materialized, but the idea is still there, so no more details.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many?
This is a really good question. IMO villainy comes in a combination of motives, methods/means, and results/ends. If the ends justify the means, you're dealing with someone of neutral or even evil alignment (as that isn't generally a "good" philosophy). I think good shady characters make you ask those questions and constantly try to label them, even though by their very nature they defy labels.
I personally love writing villainesses and in particular playing with that moral ambiguity. My Scyllua novel would have been that, to a G (for "gray"). I generally try to paint villains in shades of black and gray.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 22 Apr 2011 16:06:45 |
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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 19:01:44
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I completely throw out all pre-4e lore, due to the HUGE gaps in continuity, @ss tons of Gary Stus and Mary Sues, and TOTAL editorial failings. If I had to read one more half-naked romp by the Sisters, in which they save the world and convince everyone that they are better than everyone else, I'd tear out my eye-ballz.
On topic, though, I'd vote other: With a HUGE "WHAT!? WHAT!?" goin out to Seriadne .
I mean, awesome! A MALAUGRYM SIMBARCHE!
"WHAT!? WHAT!?"  |
Edited by - Kerryth Silver on 22 Apr 2011 19:16:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 20:14:08
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orly?
so no problems in editing or continuity pre-4e?
mm'k
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 22:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver
orly?
so no problems in editing or continuity pre-4e?
mm'k
Some issues here and there, but certainly not "HUGE gaps in continuity". In fact, the only large gap is the 100 timejump of 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 02:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver
I completely throw out all pre-4e lore, due to the HUGE gaps in continuity, @ss tons of Gary Stus and Mary Sues, and TOTAL editorial failings. If I had to read one more half-naked romp by the Sisters, in which they save the world and convince everyone that they are better than everyone else, I'd tear out my eye-ballz.
On topic, though, I'd vote other: With a HUGE "WHAT!? WHAT!?" goin out to Seriadne .
I mean, awesome! A MALAUGRYM SIMBARCHE!
"WHAT!? WHAT!?"
As Wooly said.
It's difficult to make a generalization like that if you read only a handful of the pre-4E books. I suggest you visit and peruse some really helpful scrolls in the Novels section of this site. And don't be surprised if you find that there are a lot of us here who favor the old (1E-3E novels) as much as or more than the 4E ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many?
This is a really good question. IMO villainy comes in a combination of motives, methods/means, and results/ends. If the ends justify the means, you're dealing with someone of neutral or even evil alignment (as that isn't generally a "good" philosophy). I think good shady characters make you ask those questions and constantly try to label them, even though by their very nature they defy labels.
I personally love writing villainesses and in particular playing with that moral ambiguity. My Scyllua novel would have been that, to a G (for "gray"). I generally try to paint villains in shades of black and gray.
Cheers
The more my readers question whether my antagonists are really evil or just "victims of unfortunate circumstances," the more I think I've been effective in making them shady. Come to think of it, even heroes are victims of unfortunate situations. So in the end it comes down to how the character views herself against/with the world/other characters---her philosophy, beliefs, goals. At times labeling her may cease to matter, because it can change from time to time.
And as a matter of fact, I enjoy writing shady villainesses more than pure evil ones, who at times happen to be the antagonists of the former. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 23 Apr 2011 06:02:42 |
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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 19:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You must not have read very much pre-4E material, then...
Naw. My dad gave me all his books. He had all of em. So I read em all, and 4e is the best ed so far.
Weird that no 4e villian-chicks are on the poll listz. So I'm gonna throw up another what-what for Seriadne (Malaugrym Simbarche PWNS!) |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:31:26
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I'd personally liked to see Fienra and Glasya, the archduchesses of the fourth and sixth layers of hell respectively, get more time as villainesses, but their nature as archdevils makes this unlikely.
That being said, I voted for Quen, not because I like her very much but because I think she's the most likely option, and spoilers ahead as I discuss how much 4e's building her up(not sure if it's been touched on). 4e has her kill Triel and take over as Matron of Baenre while maintaining her role as head priestess of the temple in Menzo. Makes a fairly big deal about the fact no one's held both titles before, and in general about how powerful she is. So I see big things in her future. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 00:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver
Weird that no 4e villian-chicks are on the poll listz.
Lallara Mediocros, Quenthel Baenre, Triel Baenre, and the Durthans appeared in pre-4E, and they still do in 4E. And Dmitra Flass is a new 4E character.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 02:26:22
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| Triel appears in 4e as a corpse entombed in her dining room while Quenthel sits on the throne. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 03:59:15
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Which is just right. I don't see her as a "good" leader. And she herself said that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 04:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Which is just right. I don't see her as a "good" leader. And she herself said that.
-Quenthel, she never struck me as a particularly good leader, either, though. I always got the impression that she was kind of dumb, actually. Personally, I would have preferred that Triel stay in charge of the House, because I think the whole web of intrigue between Triel not being a particularly..."assertive" and confident leadership figure, Gromph doing his own thing in the shadows attempting to steer Triel in directions that are more beneficial towards his own particular goals, and Quenthel being...Quenthel, made for a more dynamic interplay. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Archvillainess (Spoilers)
