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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 16:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Don't know that I'd go that far, but it works. 
I suppose a less-intense interpretation would see only the most ancient el-yads display these tree-veins. A consequence, perhaps, of centuries of woodshaping that has seen these el-yads almost become trees themselves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 17:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Don't know that I'd go that far, but it works.
I suppose a less-intense interpretation would see only the most ancient el-yads display these tree-veins. A consequence, perhaps, of centuries of woodshaping that has seen these el-yads almost become trees themselves.
That works better for me. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 17:34:23
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I like it, but it is a bit much, so how about a...
Compromise:
The veins are VERY subtle, and are normally hard to discern with the naked eye (unless you have excellent Elven vision and know what to look for). However, when 'Shaping', the veins begin to glow; the more intense the shaping, the more the veins stand out.
Caveat: Elves are able to obtain nutrition from sunlight (that's canon), and can even sustain themselves for short periods of time on just sunlight alone (in fact, they require it every so often, which is why Elves held in captivity never last very long).
All this branch of Elven learning does is allow The Woodshaper to access that part of their blood that holds a 'kinship' to plants (Chlorophyll?). Ergo, when they use this ability it stimulates that part of their blood and 'super-charge' it, which allows them to Shape and also causes the glow. They are basically just feeding magical energies into a recessive (yet hereditary) Fey gene.
At higher levels (Paragon & Epic) I can see giving them some of the abilites found in a couple of 2e's druid Kits (like having bark-like skin, etc), and at the Immortal tier (you haven't heard? Thats planned for 5e) the Woodshaper becomes a treant.
So you have:
1-10 = Woodshaper
11-20 = WoodWarden
21-30 = Forestal (from the Thomas Covenant novels, similar to a Wood Giant)
31-40 = Treant
41+ (Ascension) = Elder Treelord (Ent, grandfather Tree, etc); character removed from play (if that hasn't happened already).
BTW, these are all really just 'rules of thumb' for DMs - I really don't think anyone would play a PC Woodshaper, and detailed rules for NPCs aren't necessary (so these are just guidelines). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2010 03:21:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 18:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like it, but it is a bit much, so how about a...
Compromise:
The veins are VERY subtle, and are normally hard to discern with the naked eye (unless you have excellent Elven vision and know what to look for). However, when 'Shaping', the veins begin to glow; the more intense the shaping, the more the veins stand out.
Caveat: Elves are able to obtain nutrition from sunlight (that's canon), and can even sustain themselves for short periods of time on just sunlight alone (in fact, they require it every so often, which is why Elves held in captivity never last very long).
All this branch of Elven learning does is allow The Woodshaper to access that part of their blood that holds a 'kinship' to plants (Chlorophyll?). Ergo, when they use this ability it stimulates that part of their blood and 'super-charge' it, which allows them to Shape and also causes the glow. They are basically just feeding magical energies into a recessive (yet hereditary) Fey gene.
At higher levels (Paragon & Epic) I can see giving them some of the abilites found in a couple of 2e's druid Kits (like having bark-like skin, etc), and at the Immortal tier (you haven't heard? Thats planned for 5e) the Woodshaper becomes a treant.
So you have:
1-10 = Woodshaper
11-20 = WoodWarden
21-30 = Forestal (from the Thomas Covenant novels)
31-40 = Treant
41+ (Ascension) = Elder Treelord (Ent, grandfather Tree, etc); character removed from play (if that hasn't happened already).
BTW, these are all really just 'rules of thumb' for DMs - I really don't think anyone would play a PC Woodshaper, and detailed rules for NPCs aren't necessary (so these are just guidelines).
See, this is why I've been advocating the dragonmark approach -- specifically, something based on the Dragonmark Heir PrC. It's only a 5 level PrC, so for even the most dedicated adventuring type, it's not a class that takes a lot of their time and XP.
My main point is that with so much treeshaping having happened, it makes more sense for it to have been done by many elves of lesser levels, instead of fewer elves of higher levels. A five-level PrC would be far more common than a 20+ level PrC.
Additionally, this means that our treeshapers (Woodsingers, if you will) don't have to train forever in just one class. Woodsinger #1 could be a warrior, Woodsinger #2 could be a priestess of Hanali Celanil, and Woodsinger #3 could be a simple baker.
So we have more Woodsingers and thus more capability of shaping wood, none of them have to be solely dedicated to it, and everything else remains fairly balanced.
In my mind, it's a simpler, lower-level approach. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 01:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Compromise:
The veins are VERY subtle, and are normally hard to discern with the naked eye (unless you have excellent Elven vision and know what to look for). However, when 'Shaping', the veins begin to glow; the more intense the shaping, the more the veins stand out.
Neat. The only tidbit I'd add, is that the more ancient the bloodline among the el-yad families, the less subtle the veins become. Perhaps to illustrate just how long and intimate the connection between the elves and dryads has become? I'm only focusing on this, because I eventually see some of the eldest el-yads actually reaching a point in their woodshaping evolution, that they literally become some of the very tree-like structures the elves reside in.
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 01:17:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Additionally, this means that our treeshapers (Woodsingers, if you will) don't have to train forever in just one class. Woodsinger #1 could be a warrior, Woodsinger #2 could be a priestess of Hanali Celanil, and Woodsinger #3 could be a simple baker.
So we have more Woodsingers and thus more capability of shaping wood, none of them have to be solely dedicated to it, and everything else remains fairly balanced.
In my mind, it's a simpler, lower-level approach.
I like the approach the low level approach that Wolly is proposing. It seems that it would work much better than my own approach in the smaller elven villages and for strongholds for the wandering green elves of the Border Forest.
I have none of the Ebberon material, so I'm not sure what a dragonmark is nor what Dragonmark Heir PrC involves. I'll have to see if any of my players have the necessary material. Is there an explaination of these terms somwhere online? And btw I'm not looking for a torrent with copyrighted material. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 02:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Additionally, this means that our treeshapers (Woodsingers, if you will) don't have to train forever in just one class. Woodsinger #1 could be a warrior, Woodsinger #2 could be a priestess of Hanali Celanil, and Woodsinger #3 could be a simple baker.
So we have more Woodsingers and thus more capability of shaping wood, none of them have to be solely dedicated to it, and everything else remains fairly balanced.
In my mind, it's a simpler, lower-level approach.
I like the approach the low level approach that Wolly is proposing. It seems that it would work much better than my own approach in the smaller elven villages and for strongholds for the wandering green elves of the Border Forest.
I have none of the Ebberon material, so I'm not sure what a dragonmark is nor what Dragonmark Heir PrC involves. I'll have to see if any of my players have the necessary material. Is there an explaination of these terms somwhere online? And btw I'm not looking for a torrent with copyrighted material.
Really short version: In the Eber-whatsit setting, some people are born with these funky mystical birthmarks called dragonmarks. These dragonmarks give them specific magical powers. The Dragonmark Heir PrC is a 5-level PrC that allows them to get more in tune with their dragonmark, and thus get more abilities out of it.
The Eberron Campaign Setting discusses dragonmarks, and this PrC. It's a 3E book, so you can likely get it for a reasonable price either online or in your FLGS. I've twice bought it from eBay for much less than its cover price. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 03:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Additionally, this means that our treeshapers (Woodsingers, if you will) don't have to train forever in just one class. Woodsinger #1 could be a warrior, Woodsinger #2 could be a priestess of Hanali Celanil, and Woodsinger #3 could be a simple baker.
So we have more Woodsingers and thus more capability of shaping wood, none of them have to be solely dedicated to it, and everything else remains fairly balanced.
In my mind, it's a simpler, lower-level approach.
I like the approach the low level approach that Wolly is proposing. It seems that it would work much better than my own approach in the smaller elven villages and for strongholds for the wandering green elves of the Border Forest.
I have none of the Ebberon material, so I'm not sure what a dragonmark is nor what Dragonmark Heir PrC involves. I'll have to see if any of my players have the necessary material. Is there an explaination of these terms somwhere online? And btw I'm not looking for a torrent with copyrighted material.
Really short version: In the Eber-whatsit setting, some people are born with these funky mystical birthmarks called dragonmarks. These dragonmarks give them specific magical powers. The Dragonmark Heir PrC is a 5-level PrC that allows them to get more in tune with their dragonmark, and thus get more abilities out of it.
The Eberron Campaign Setting discusses dragonmarks, and this PrC. It's a 3E book, so you can likely get it for a reasonable price either online or in your FLGS. I've twice bought it from eBay for much less than its cover price.
I'll note also, that the Dragonmarked tome elaborates on the details for the Dragonmarks system presented in the Eberrron Campaign Setting. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 03:34:56
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My approach was also feat-based, but required a 'Feat Tree'. That allows for fairly low types to create small things like tools (Even a 1st level NPC gets at least two feats).
The magic of an elven High-mage was only required if you wanted to apply a Spellweb to the structure. Even smaller items (non-buildings) could be enchanted by a magic user with the feat without necessarily being a High mage. Only the mythal-like protections require high magic.
Wooly's method is simpler, but I think it gives too much for just one feat (which is why I do not player Eberron - I do not like high-powered games).
Basically the progression works out the same, with a person able to still have a 'normal' class, but I don't really care for the idea that PCs could do something (just by burning a single feat) that Elves have spent thousands of years perfecting. Its not just an ability; its also an art.
Plus, if it were that easy, then you'd get some slimey elves selling people Tree Homes on every corner.
I just thought of something... If you used this ability on an intelligent or mobile piece of Flora, could you create a Mobil-home? 
I think I just invented Elven trailor parks. 
Treant: "Dadburn halflings! I can't get them outta my branches! Who the hades taught them how to build a treehouse? Now I got to call pest control!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 04:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My approach was also feat-based, but required a 'Feat Tree'. That allows for fairly low types to create small things like tools (Even a 1st level NPC gets at least two feats).
The magic of an elven High-mage was only required if you wanted to apply a Spellweb to the structure. Even smaller items (non-buildings) could be enchanted by a magic user with the feat without necessarily being a High mage. Only the mythal-like protections require high magic.
Wooly's method is simpler, but I think it gives too much for just one feat (which is why I do not player Eberron - I do not like high-powered games).
Basically the progression works out the same, with a person able to still have a 'normal' class, but I don't really care for the idea that PCs could do something (just by burning a single feat) that Elves have spent thousands of years perfecting. Its not just an ability; its also an art.
Plus, if it were that easy, then you'd get some slimey elves selling people Tree Homes on every corner.
I just thought of something... If you used this ability on an intelligent or mobile piece of Flora, could you create a Mobil-home?
I think I just invented Elven trailor parks.
Treant: "Dadburn halflings! I can't get them outta my branches! Who the hades taught them how to build a treehouse? Now I got to call pest control!"
Well, you put some limits on it. Elven blood being a major one... And limit it to wood.
And just a feat would only give limited woodshaping abilities -- maybe a small opening, or smoothing out a small area. It's when they invest more in it -- either via more feats for improved versions of the ability, or thru a recasting of the Dragonmark Heir PrC -- that they gain the ability to shape entire rooms or encourage rapid wood growth. And it's only with the increased investment that they gain the bonuses to make it artistic, rather than simply functional.
Yeah, you still have the issue of PCs being able to do it... But how many are going to want to? That's also part of the reason I propose doing it as a limited PrC like the Dragonmark Heir -- it's not going to unbalance anything, even if a PC takes it, but still allows anyone (who meets the requirements) to master it without requiring decades of adventuring.
Honestly, while I can see scenarios where a PC would want this PrC, they are few and far between. Most PCs would likely go for something like a druid, instead, and get some of the same abilities along with stuff usefull for adventuring.
Oh, and I'd rule that it couldn't be used on sentient plants. Would an elf really want to try living in a treant? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Oct 2010 04:48:34 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 05:44:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, while I can see scenarios where a PC would want this PrC, they are few and far between. Most PCs would likely go for something like a druid, instead, and get some of the same abilities along with stuff usefull for adventuring.
Agreed. I kinda see this as mostly background lore anyway. Especially given my more extreme example above about the el-yad eventually becoming a tree him/herself. You'd use it, mostly, to flesh out a part of an adventure, as an NPC or some-such.
quote:
Oh, and I'd rule that it couldn't be used on sentient plants. Would an elf really want to try living in a treant?
Actually, I'd make this more of a personal choice on the part of the el-yad woodshaper, rather than an actual ruling.
Some elves tend to display a deeper and more intuitive connection with their natural surroundings. It's not too much of a stretch to assume that both the treant and the el-yad would form a relationship similar to that of a dryad and an oak -- coming together for the mutual benefits granted by an almost symbiotic union between them. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 14:52:34
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The dryad bloodline idea is very cool, especially the visual cues of a strand of green locks or leafy hair, or chlorofyl light shining from their blood through their veins when actively woodsinging. I have some problems making it work though.
Cormanthyr describes a high magic ritual, Fhoar Akh Tell'Quess, that allowed elder elf females to transform into dryads at the ends of their lives. It's the same ritual that prepares an elf for baelnorn transformation. Its clear that many dryads have relatives among the elves, but the presence of the Fhaoar Ahk Tell Quess ritual could be seen as evidence that dryads would be unable to actually produce a bloodline among elves, as they gave up their chance of getting elven offspring when assuming the wood-based dryad form.
Hmm, I need to go search for an ecology article on dryads... because I don't believe a dryad can concieve a child. Not sure on that though. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 15:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Hmm, I need to go search for an ecology article on dryads... because I don't believe a dryad can concieve a child. Not sure on that though.
There wasn't an "Ecology" article for the dryad, as I recall. Though Ed presented the hamadryad in a "Creature Catalog" in DRAGON #101. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 15:25:17
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I stumbled upon some other bit that could fit in this puzzle. The Complete Rangers Handbook has a kit called the GreenWood Ranger or Limbant that invokes the gods to turn them gradually over the levels into a human hybrid-treant that can grow extra limbs and get nourishment from the sun and earth. These rangers quest for awhile in human form and after reaching level 4 they cover themselves with leaves and branches, buried in the earth, and emerge as a half-plant barkskinned humanoid.
A female version of the Limbant could very well be an elf hybrid-dryad that we are looking for. On of the first abilities a Limbant laerns is the ability to speak to plants at will; an essential basis for woodshaping through song is to speak in plant terms. Another ability is the capability to absorb water through roots on their feet and to regenerate fairly quickly in a immobile catatonic state of "rooting". At higer levels they can "limb" another dextrous appendage, functionaing as an extra arm great for manual crafting of any kind.
A descendant of an ancient elven Limbant could have inhereted the speaking to plant magic ability and could have established a caste of woodshapers with her powers ever since. Her skills in song, blending easthetic shapes into woodcraft added to the currently common tradition of woodgrafting. This magical symbiosis of a plantlike appendage and a woodshaper goes very far, as the shaper nourishes his arm-plant and without carefull monitoing both can get terrible diseases. As a benefit the woodshaper has a regenerating extra limb, that he himself can nurture and adjust its power and manual dexterity over the proces of a few days. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 16:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, you put some limits on it. Elven blood being a major one... And limit it to wood.
And just a feat would only give limited woodshaping abilities -- maybe a small opening, or smoothing out a small area. It's when they invest more in it -- either via more feats for improved versions of the ability, or thru a recasting of the Dragonmark Heir PrC -- that they gain the ability to shape entire rooms or encourage rapid wood growth. And it's only with the increased investment that they gain the bonuses to make it artistic, rather than simply functional.
Then I think we are really saying the same thing but approaching it from different angles.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, you still have the issue of PCs being able to do it... But how many are going to want to? That's also part of the reason I propose doing it as a limited PrC like the Dragonmark Heir -- it's not going to unbalance anything, even if a PC takes it, but still allows anyone (who meets the requirements) to master it without requiring decades of adventuring.
My problem wasn't with with PCs be able to do it, it was with them mastering it with a single feat (although I think I may have misunderstood).
I am not overly familiar with the Dragonmarks - I read about them when Eberron first came out (I have the Campaign and players guides), but I don't really remember the intricacieas of how they work. If I am understanding you correctly, a person has to 'put more into it' after they get the basic one (I vaguely remember something about 'levels' of Dragonmarks). So if it is a feat one needs to burn in order to get 'better marks', and thereby use more advanced Woodshaping techniques, then I really do believe we were saying almost exactly the same thing.
Your Dragonmark concept seems to be a blend of my feat-tree and Sage's 'bloodlines'. I really need to look at those rules again. Would you require an actual dragonmark, or would the veins take the place of that? (Becoming more pronounced with each level of 'mark'.)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, while I can see scenarios where a PC would want this PrC, they are few and far between. Most PCs would likely go for something like a druid, instead, and get some of the same abilities along with stuff usefull for adventuring.
I LOVE the idea of this being an Elven racial feat (or bloodline, or Dragonmark Heir - its all the same). I wouldn't mind at all having an Elven player who could create a wooden mallet, or repair a wooden bowl, with a few minutes of singing and concentration - I think that would be VERY flavorful.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and I'd rule that it couldn't be used on sentient plants. Would an elf really want to try living in a treant?
IIRC, you play Warhammer as well, right? (I remember you saying you played WM, but not sure about WH.)
I've seen a couple of really cool Treemen Ancients conversions, wherein they allowed Wood Elves to create small 'battle platforms' in their branches. It was a really neat idea, and I can see that in times of war. I couldn't find a pic of one unfortunately - I used to see a lot of great, inspiring stuff over at Coolminiornot.
And besides, didn't Merry and Pippin do exactly that? Temporarily of course, but that's what gave me the idea for that treeman quote. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2010 16:43:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 17:11:41
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Yeah, the lesser dragonmarks had less abilities. You had to improve your dragonmark to get more abilities out of it. Same thing I'm suggesting.
And I'm not suggesting an actual marking of any kind -- just the mechanics behind it, though there could be external manifestations of the power. I think the mechanics could be easily adapted to woodshaping, and it nicely accomplishes the goal of having low-level people who could do nifty things with wood, but not much else.
I'm not a Warhammer Fantasy person, though I have a passing interest in WH40K (Space Wolves!).
Riding on a treant is one thing... I thought you were proposing magically hollowing one out to live inside it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 18:54:25
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I was thinking more along the line of the tree being 'shaped' so as to have a treehouse, or just a platform (like what some hunters use) high-up in its branches - not so much within the trunk itself.
And this has gotten me thinking about something else - a high-level (Greater Dragonmarked) woodshaper could conceivably use his abilities to 'heal' a tree, including a treant - that would be kinda neat.
I'm picturing a 'great war' being waged by the elves, and Woodshaper-medics on-hand to help their fallen Treelord allies.
EDIT:Would you believe while looking for a pic of a really cool mini I saw (of Elves fighting from the boughs of an Treeman/Ent), I got an insanely bad virus?
tryiing to fix the damn thing now... this sux.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2010 20:43:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 00:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've seen a couple of really cool Treemen Ancients conversions, wherein they allowed Wood Elves to create small 'battle platforms' in their branches. It was a really neat idea, and I can see that in times of war. I couldn't find a pic of one unfortunately - I used to see a lot of great, inspiring stuff over at Coolminiornot.
Hmmm. WH's Treemen are usually spirits of Athel Loren who have entwined their essences with ancient trees of great life and power in the land. Perhaps the el-yads allowed to form these "battle platforms" are of the same spirit-family as the Treemen as well -- forging a more definitive and intimate connection between the Treemen and the el-yads. I think this fits the elven mindset more than the prospect of just allowing "any old" elf to dwell among the Treeman's branches.
Alternatively, maybe the Treemen are the ultimate expression of the most ancient el-yads -- as I've been saying above. The spirit-link between the el-yad and his/her chosen oak or other tree-type vessel eventually allows them to meld in order to create one entity. However, those descendants of the ancient el-yad-turned-Treeman, still maintain the spiritual essence of the family, and thus find the Treeman more welcoming when it comes to times of war. |
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Elven woodcraft or woodshaping
