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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 09:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, it's a phenomena only now just being observed by sages across the Realms. Informally referred to as "Oghma Radiation," it is said to be an odd occurrence enacted by the Lord of Knowledge in order to ensure that ALL information is protected, and is never truly lost. Loremasters believe that Oghma himself literally reaches beneath the void of nothingness [which supposedly leads to the Negative Energy Plane], encouraging info-particles to radiate out from the void, and return to the Prime Material Plane.
yea, he is the Binder, I meant originally that radiation comes from Selune when she hurled energy at Shar, then maybe Oghma appeared as a mediator
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The total "mass" of the D&D cosmos is dictated by belief. Belief is just another form of mass and energy, it is the essence and building blocks of the planes. It is also subject to entropic decay: beliefs tend to diffuse into simpler components with forgotten contexts which float meaninglessly until they get joined or absorbed into other beliefs. Belief does not obey the same "physics" which consume mass and energy within "black hole" voids. Belief exists in rarefied form throughout even the emptiest reaches of the universe and thematically allows all things D&D to exist. All the powers have some ability to perpetuate and manipulate belief, even Shar paradoxically requires belief to exist.
she is pissed off by that, she requires nothing, the problem is the people who seek her out |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 09:37:35
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| Well, Shar isn't more powerful than Ao (or those he serves). If she were, then she wouldn't by shackled by belief sustenance. As it stands, she answers to her faithful like every other power of her (not so high) cosmic station. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 12:54:00
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| I'm not satisfied with the idea of Ao, the way I play it that both influence each other, I've reduced its power to a demiurge-like level where Shar is its flaw, its forgetfulness of perfection. The demiurge has the potential, only need an infinite amount of belief, for that the Great Wheel would have to transcend its efficiency. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 14:19:24
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quote:
Markustay
I should call Steven Hawkins with this theory, but the guy never answers his phone. 
All I ever get is one of those annoying computer voices.
Aside from your, uh, inaccurate scaling of "astrophysics" (which explicitly violates principles of geometry and relativity <g>), your thoughts about 4½-foot tall Middle-earth humanity are not at all impossible. I'm more inclined to think these humans would be about the same height as those who lived around Tolkein (circa WWII), but I don't recall such unit measures actually being stated within any Middle-earth books. The movies are of course only "based on" the books, though I think the only (CGI) "short" people depicted are Gimli, Gollum, a few shorty goblinoids in the orcish hordes, and some handfuls of hairy hobbits.
It seems more sensible for Fey to be scaled, rather than humans. Easily accomplished, given their apparent affinities for shapechanging and illusion, plus rather common Enlarge/Reduce and alteration magics.
I'll grind my teeth and accept that gnomes are fey. What about goblins and dragons? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Dec 2010 14:20:58 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 17:12:28
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Dragons fey? Nope, they seem to be their own breed of critter altogether. Gilgamesh fought one, as did Beowulf. My (best) guess is that they were a hold-over from some earlier time (dinos?) when men and fey did not exist yet. Misht explain why they were so wide-spread- they were on the first Super-coninent (Pangea) before the fey arrived. Mythologically speaking, of course. Anyone here seen that discovery "documentary" that came out a few years ago? "World of Dragons" I think it's called. A truly fascinating look at (possible) origins.
Goblins, on the other hand, most definitely ARE. Along with Knockers, Hobs, Korreds, Phoukas, Kelpies, Brownies and even Bogarts. Even trolls seem to have some sort of fey roots. Not sure where they fit into the fey family, but then again, I'd bet they are considered Unseelie. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 17:53:33
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Where do orcs fit into the Fey model?
Tolkein's orcs (more properly called uruks or uruku in his canon, as explained here) were - depending on how you read his books - enslaved elves twisted and corrupted by Sauron's/Saruman's evil magic, or creations forged from Morgoth's hateful essence as an evil mockery of the forms of elves and men.
I'm familiar with an imaginative D&D creation myth (in DMGR4: Monster Mythology, I think) which describes the orcs as being created from drops of Seldarine(?) blood spilled by angry old Gruumsh (oops, I mean Talos, grrrr) mightily thrusting his great spear all over the bloody place. Spelljammer asserts that orcs may have originally been scro (although it also suggests the reverse is possible). I can't recall any Realms-specific tales about the origins of orcs. Nor have I yet read through 3E lorebooks which I know will add new details.
Some of these orc-genesis tales suggest Fey origins; others suggest orcs are created from definitely non-Fey beings. Which is it then?
Pangea on Toril would probably be called Tangea or Frangea. Maybe even Pangrūna.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 20:40:08
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| I stick with the mythology, so goblins are fey, dragons no, except faerie dragons (they remain from times when the fey creator races merged with the serpentine races). Orcs seem like demons or anti-fey. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 20:52:05
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Well, more pointedly - do orcs have any association with the Feywild? What about "purer" orcs like orogs and scro?
Are elf-orc halfbreeds categorically defined as impossible? It seems like there must have been some raping and pillaging (or even the possibility of love) between members of these races. What of half-elf/half-orc offspring? Or elf/half-orc, or orc/half-elf offspring?
My orc questions are based on the fact that the earliest (circa 1E) descriptions tend to group them with goblins (and hobgoblins, bugbears, etc); they are often collectively referred to as simply the "goblinoid races". |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Dec 2010 20:59:11 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 21:12:26
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I don't know, I used them maybe twice, preferring the jhagut or sranc (from non D&D novels).
They are associated with Acheron (cube of Nishrek), they seem to be exiled from the fey realm (maybe cause of the Black Diamond, possibly Labelas/Gruumsh were one), I don't see any better reason why would Gruumsh invade Arvandor with Malar and Araushnee. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 21:44:33
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| Elf/orc half-breeds are categorically NOT possible. This has been stated in canon lore of just about every D&D world I've seen. Most non-D&D fantasy, too. The Book of Erotic Fantasy has a chart of possible crossbreeds, and elf-orc is on the NO side of the chart. They are incompatible. Regardless of rape or love between the two, offspring are never created. (And what elf or roc in their right mind would WANT to do so with their biggest foe??!!) A Half-elf/half-orc MIGHT be possible, but would only result in a human or a half of one or the other- not both. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 21:56:39
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| You're probably right, Alystra. Though I'll have to admit that some kind of drow/orc mix (through half-human parentage, or <gasp> fiend-spawned/daemonfey parentage, heeheeheehee) seems like a majestically cool kind of character, perhaps not so much an impossibility as a rare anomaly. Sufficiently unique and awesome to give good ol' Drizzt a run through a trilogy, and yet more interesting if such a "monster" chooses to follow the old internal-struggle-against-evil trope. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 01:31:11
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| A drow-orc mix... Would that be called a dorc? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Dec 2010 01:32:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 01:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, it's a phenomena only now just being observed by sages across the Realms. Informally referred to as "Oghma Radiation," it is said to be an odd occurrence enacted by the Lord of Knowledge in order to ensure that ALL information is protected, and is never truly lost. Loremasters believe that Oghma himself literally reaches beneath the void of nothingness [which supposedly leads to the Negative Energy Plane], encouraging info-particles to radiate out from the void, and return to the Prime Material Plane.
yea, he is the Binder, I meant originally that radiation comes from Selune when she hurled energy at Shar, then maybe Oghma appeared as a mediator
Well, 'tis now assumed by some quantum physicists that energy is itself, some form of "information." So Oghma, while acting as an official mediator, may also serve his function as "the Binder" by ensuring that whatever magical/divine information was exchanged between Shar and Selune, as energy, is collected and stored away.
Imagine the possibilities for divine and arcane secrets callously cast between deities as they battle for dominance of the Heavens. Greater still, imagine the possibilities of lore that Oghma has secreted away since that time. And for what purpose? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 10:25:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, 'tis now assumed by some quantum physicists that energy is itself, some form of "information." So Oghma, while acting as an official mediator, may also serve his function as "the Binder" by ensuring that whatever magical/divine information was exchanged between Shar and Selune, as energy, is collected and stored away.
Imagine the possibilities for divine and arcane secrets callously cast between deities as they battle for dominance of the Heavens. Greater still, imagine the possibilities of lore that Oghma has secreted away since that time. And for what purpose?
it could turn out into knowledge-is-power-power-corrupts, that's what I did with Ilsensine, only different means, the memory draining from the Styx was from her brain fluid
or the end of magic, something between Boccob's Last Spells and Clarke's Third Law |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 10:59:52
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| So Ao's ultimate knowledge has driven him ultimately insane? And his ultimate power has made him ultimately corrupt? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 11:28:11
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if you want to play that way
I find it more interesting if the universe is out to get you (for gaming purposes) than the universe being about balance, or being distant and uncaring
though not ultimate, I find the Athar view on ''gods'' better than FR's |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 12:40:02
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The crystal sphere of the Realms can be considered expanding constantly through all the planar movement that occurs within and without it. The many portals that link other worlds, planes and crystal spheres are in itself leaks that ensure information or belief travels to and from the Forgotten Realms. Ao, a being that supervises this proces would be needed to maintain somesort of equilibrium stopping the Realms from fracturing (or being asurped) into the multiverse as a whole.
Fearuns gods might have been largely occupied with this before the Time of Troubles. The overgods that Ao answers to have retaken this task, enabling the gods of Toril to better focus on "internal affairs".
The Feywild's and Shadowfell's return to enveloping Toril might be an indication that Ao's overgods left this task to Ao once more, who decided a certain level of uniformity in the multiverse is inevitable. These realms are a great new neutral playground for divine agendas that try to reach beyond Torils sphere.
__________
The artist of that earlier posted gnome picture, Rien Poortvliet, hails from Holland, Schiedam. He worked in the advertisement sector but was an avid hunter and his love for nature urged him to work in his spare time on nature inspired illustrated books. His sense for detail was awesome, and together with the folklore storyteller Wil Huygen he unveiled the life of gnomes. He was a gifted illustrator but his work was considered too common by the contempuary art scene in the Netherlands. The book was a resounding succes in the late 70ties and ongoing. I hesitate to use these as the gnomes of D&D as Poortvliet depicted the forest gnomes as so much smaller, under a feet tall than the D&D ones, and they didn't have any magic or illusion based powers, just a lot of skill (a trait much respected by most Dutch people) in woodcraft, hiding and survival. It is said his inspiration is largely derived from Disneys Snowwhite and the Seven Dwarves.
A gnomes durability and wealth is one of the few common things in all folklore tales about them. Their love of stones and gems is quite legendary, as is their ability to survive a lot of abuse. Its a trait shared by the other related earth-spirit, dwarves. I like D&D's addition of them being artisticly inclined, seeing animals as equals and fun loving pranksters. Its the main difference of them compared to dwarves. Upon birth a gnome is given a newborn pet, where they get their ability to learn its language naturally. With age and with increasing difficulty they can apply this skill to other woodland critters. Gnome communities accept a gnomes maturity when and if their final schooling "project" is subjected to acceptance of the elders scrutiny.
But gnomes being truly fey or related to elves/sidhe/leshay? As Arik, I'm not seeing it. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 17:39:21
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My own musings -
Orcs wee the first Dark Elves - the 'true' Dökkįlfar. The Dark Elves that would become Drow were Svartįlfar. Although I have it where the Svartįlfar/Ilythiir were just one Tribe of Dökkįlfar. These were the first group of 'Fey brood' to break from Titania's Court (they would become known as 'Unseelie').
Like all Fey, the Dökkįlfar were able to alter their size and appearance, and preferred to take-on 'mosntrous' visages. This is where the concept of 'Seelie' comes in - that term is a uniquely fey term for beauty and creativity, and the striving for harmony. 'Unseelie' Fey are those creatures of the Feywild that are of a mind that 'true beauty' lies in ugliness and destruction - that that is an 'artform' unto itself. To be 'Seelie' means to want to take-on a form pleasing to the eye, and only create things that are likewise - to create harmony through providing pleasurable stimulus to the senses. Unseelie fey feel that their own 'art' is more 'shocking', and thus provides far greater stimulus to the senses. As I have said, it is a uniquely Fey concept (although certain Oriental philosophies come close), and hard to translate precisely into human terms. Note that it doesn't automatically mean Seelie and Unseelie fey are 'enemies' (although it does happen often enough), or even 'good' or 'evil' - they are beyond such simple concepts. They are sensual beings, and the two groups are merely following different paths of philosophy on what it means to be 'truly fey'.
The problem comes-in when fey dwell on the Prime Material too long - they loose their abilities to change form (although their are specific notable exceptions). Fey that have become 'Goblins' (which is actually an umbrella-term that includes the group of the same name) have become 'stuck' in those forms, because they have dwelt on the Prime Material Plane for so many generations. Theoretically, 'Prime Fey' that move back to the Feywild could eventually regain their shape-changing abilities, but perhaps it would take at least another generation to do so (which could be MANY years, because Fey are nigh-immortal on their home plane).
Bear in mind that ALL beings are composed of material native to that plane from whence they hail (you are native of the plane you are born on). The Material Plane is the most 'static' of all the planes, and the least-affected by Chaos - its forms are difficult to manipulate without magic or inherent abilities. On all other planes the 'matter' is much more malleable, and subject to the whims of powerful beings who well there. So the Fey (of the Feywild) are much more like other outsiders - Fiends and Celestials - in that they may change form as they 'evolve' (gain levels, or 'promotions'). I may need to come-up with two terms to differentiate the two different strains of Fey - perhaps Fey (from the Feywild), and Fay (Fae?) for those that dwell on the prime ('Fey' is actually a misspelling that pertains to 'death'... which works in this case).
All beings at their core are composed of pure energy - you can call it a spirit, or soul, whatever - and use the material available on the plane of their birth to form bodies for themselves. It is THAT material which is linked to the plane, not really the spirit. What the Fey did was 'unburden' themselves from their Prime-Material forms and took new ones composed of the 'stuff of dreams' (which is the Plane the Feywild was created from). In that way,the Fey are composed on almost 'pure thought', which works very well for them, but has the side-effect of locking them into a form when they leave the 'dreaming' (Dreamtime, Feywild, etc).
As I have stated in some of my Cosmological musings, 'reality' is governed by the beliefs of the people who dwell within that reality. the more folk within a given area (who all believe the same thing), the more 'substantial' (firm) that piece of reality becomes (and the less malleable). The Prime Material worlds are the most heavily congested regions in the multiverse, and the beliefs of primes are often dictated by governments or religions which enforce those beliefs. Ergo, 'Dogma' becomes an extremely solid form of reality within the Prime, and Outsiders are forced to conform to the beliefs of those that dwell within these regions. The expression "open your mind" quite literally means 'embrace chaos', because that is the natural state of the universe if all the beings dwelling therein would stop believing in all the 'rules' they have been taught to believe in. If people learn to 'see past' their beliefs they would realize that the shape of the world around them is a self-generated illusion. Which, I suppose, is why demons are all psionic - Demons try to break-down 'belief-systems' because it empowers them.
This is partially why the Fey are in two (actually far more, but two main branches) camps - they realize what 'mortal belief' does to the world, and this is why they try to influence those beliefs with the 'Seelie' (They think that if people believe in a perfect, beautiful world, it will be).
As an aside to all this - this is why when you 'pass on' from this world, you become a native of another - you are no longer fettered to the world of your birth - your spirit was released from its physical prison. In a sense, that means all (non-Prime) Fey have already 'died' - they unshackled themselves from their primal bodies long ago. Hence my reference above that the misspelled 'Fey' works for us in this model.
As for Ao, he is just a 'Guardian'. I have come to the conclusion that the word 'god' actually means the same thing as 'boss' in some primeval tongue - all it really means to be 'a god' is that you are in-charge of something (and how many of us have worked for bosses that acted like 'little gods'?) All beings have something they are 'in-charge' of, although most mortal folk never come to know what their 'mission' is (until after they die). Gods, on the other hand, are well-aware of what they are in-charge of. This also has very little to do with actual 'power' - there is a a certain system of rules within the multiverse that MUST be followed, and EVERYONE must adhere to them.
What that means is that Corellon, or the Celestial Emperor, might actually be more powerful then Ao, but both must obey his commands when they are within Realmspace (the sphere itself is Ao's portfolio). However, outside of Realmspace, Ao holds very little power (like when you go golfing with your boss on the weekend). Anything that takes place outside of a being's portfolio is subject to another being's control (which enforces 'law' in the universe - even the 'most powerful' must obey the weakest on occasion). This is why 'politics' on a divine scale are so intricate, and it takes centuries, sometimes uncounted millenia, for plans to see fruition - there are simply too many variables that are controlled by others.
All planes (including dimensions, demi-planes, over-planes, pocket-planes, etc) have 'guardians' - a being who's job it is to 'watch over' the plane (like a shepherd). There really is no difference between this position and a portfolio - one is just a defined space, while the other is usually a concept. ALL 'gods' (including demi-powers) have something they are the 'guardian' over - domains, portfolios, 'spheres' - it all amounts to the same thing. Even those Fey-Guardians who watch-over the Fairy Paths fit into this model. As I have stated, you don't need to be divine - everyone is in-charge of something, which is usually related to their level of power (but not necessarily). This means the LoP could just be an Immortal (Exarch), who is in charge of Sigil; anyone who thinks she needs to be 'more powerful then the gods' is fooling themselves. She merely needs to have The Cage as her portfolio.
Ao's 'boss' that we glimpsed at the end of the Avatar crisis just becomes the Guardian for the Prime material itself (which is probably Ptah). In my cosmology, Ahriman becomes the 'Overgod' (Guardian) of The Hells, and Celestia the Overgod of The Heavens, and they have their own 'lesser' avatars that mortals may interact with; Asmodeus and Jazirian.
'Power' is directly related to 'situation' (RW and FR) - it is not some tangible thing that remains constant throughout. Take Spelljammer as a canon example of this (or how clerical magic works within PS) - the amount of power a god has within a sphere is directly related to mortal worship - even the mightiest deity becomes nearly powerless in a sphere where no one believes in them (although they can last a short time, but it costs them MUCH - they must feed on their own belief in themselves, which is self-destructive - they can't readily replace it).
As for the 'expanding universe' question - the problem is that without time-travel (and perhaps even then) we can't measure how much humans or anything else 'grows', simply because the units of measurement grow along with everything else (our 'inch' is slightly larger then the 'inch' of a century ago). I suppose metric might be accurate regardless - that's based on mass, I believe - but even that might be subject to the expansion (not sure).
Its funny, but there is a DC comic (70's) that touched slightly upon this (indirectly). Lex Luther was trying to save the world from a meteor (Superman was away in space), and did so by moving it forward one year in time. When Lois Lane asked "Isn't that just going to doom the world next year?", he responded "Of course not! Earth will be billions of miles away by them." I thought that was brilliant - it was the one and only time I ave ever seen that particular line of reasoning used in regards to time-travel (and it makes sense). How can time-travel EVER be possible, if everything is in constant motion? Even if you could do it, you would die instantly because the world no-longer occupies the same space!
Of course, my own theories on time have evolved, so now I'm sure it is possible (according to Hawkins, time is just another dimension, like any other), but I thought I'd bring it up because it was related to the expanding universe stuff we are discussing, and I found it interesting.
I tend to go way-off on tangents here, but one last thing - "The universe is out to get you" that Quale mentioned. That philosophy does no have to be exclusive; IF the universe was once 'primal chaos' (Primordial soup), then it stands to reason that the current state is not natural, and it's 'laws' are being (en)forced upon it. The Universe isn't 'out to get you' - it just wants to return you to the soup where you belong. 'GOD' (Demiurge, Great Spirit, Cosmic Muffin, whatever) began the universe as conscious application of his/her will over those chaotic forces. Since all beings are part of the 'great spirit' (force, whatever), all those little pieces of that first spirit (which we all are) can also force their wills upon the universe. So 'its out to get you' is not an evil thing in-and-of itself, and 'balance' - the desire to maintain the status-quo - is not 'good' - it all becomes a vast battlefield in which Law & Chaos are forever at-war - its a matter of self-preservation on a cosmic scale. If you remove all thinking beings from the Universe (including 'GOD'), the universe reverts to its primal state. Ergo, the concepts of 'balance' and 'entropy' ("the universe is out to get you") are not mutually exclusive; they are MAGIC (the willpower involved in shaping the chaos) vs unrestrained Chaos.
'Balance' isn't all about 'Law' either - it is about maintaining equilibrium - too much of chaos and the world deteriorates; too much Law and the world stagnates. This is why the 'GOD' (demiurge, whatever) knows it is very important to give mortals 'Free Will' - it helps to maintain the balance, and therefor the existence of the Universe. Everything requires and equal but opposite opposing force.
My 'Cthon' isn't evil - it is the balance to 'GOD' (which in my cosmology is very much like Marvel Comic's Eternity; my 'God' is much closer to the SW concept of 'The Force' then any Judeo-Christian model (and that was my disclaimer, in case anyone was even in the slightest bit offended by anything I have said).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2010 20:00:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 17:51:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
my 'God' much closer to the SW concept of 'The Force' then any Judeo-Christian model (and that was my disclaimer, in case anyone was even in the slightest bit offended by anything I have said).
He's made up of midichlorians? And does that mean the Pope has a lightsaber?
Okay, I'll go get in that comfortable-looking handbasket. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Dec 2010 17:52:31 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 12:29:16
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That is cool about them being trapped in the ugly form, tough not all of the unseelies seem ugly, or that's just glamors, they are all hags.
There is cosmological similarity of how I pictured it to your model MT, particularly the illusion. Only the difference is in the beings, Ptah, Thoth and others were all mortals, they founded the Egyptian/Mulhorand-like civilization and deified centuries after they died. Ptah was who led them from the deluge. The same in Chessenta, so I did not use Chaos from the Greek myths. I used the eastern concept of Maya-Illusion, composed of Shar and Selune. Your concept of Chaos outside of the multiverse would be then my concept of perfection outside of the illusion, it's acosmic, how the first fey incarnated from there is Mystery (source of raw magic), they are kind of trapped in the Weave. I guess Oghma then wants to unravel all the mysteries. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 13:39:27
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The dogma of religion explains that humans are entirely central to the universe. We are designed, and our universe is also designed, so that we may live exactly as our creator (or creators) intended. "The universe is out to get you" is not a valid observation, since it suggests we exist only to serve the needs of uncaring or incompetent gods.
The dogma of science explains that humans are entirely incidental to the universe. We are an accident of improbable odds; though if we didn't exist then something else (not like or unlike humans) most probably would. "The universe is out to get you" is a valid observation, since conditions within the uncaring universe force life to constantly compete and adapt if it is to survive.
My problem here is that the Realms are so positively overburdened with creators, gods, and the gods of the gods, that there just can't be any real chance that humans (and the other god-worshipping races) exist merely as the pawns and playthings of sadistic powers. Therefore - within the Realms - the first statement must hold more truth than the second, ergo, "the universe is out to get you" is not a substantially valid normative declaration.
Having said that, certain considerations apply within the Realms. Specifically, if particular individuals (namely the PCs) become the focus of interest for a particular superdivine entity (namely the DM) who is "out to get them" then things can become quite sadistic indeed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Dec 2010 14:05:49 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 15:10:31
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In the Realms indeed the divine portfolios cover everything, including science, that means that it's both, ''the universe is out to get you'' is ''the gods are out to get you if you don't play by their rules''. They are not sadistic to the majority of people, but there were certain Imaskari or Netherese archmages (or the Athar) who had a better understanding of the truth than the average believer-creator. And what happened to them.
My pcs always like the feeling that some mysterious force is after them, most of the time the real threat to them is minimal cause they are ignorant about the nature of reality. You play it subtle, nothing sadistic, you know that line from The Matrix: ''You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.'', you try to get that feeling, the universe does not provoke, it only adapts to the the pc's actions with proper consequences, so invisibly that the pcs believe it was all their fault. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 15:55:20
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Well ... quite often it is actually their fault. You'd think level 99 PCs would know better. Nope. They still have an amusing tendency to fall off things, blindly charge into ambushes, Fireball their companions, stick their heads into traps out of curiosity and boredom, and unfailingly flash their blades, spells, and gold at anything that moves into visual range.
The universe (religious, scientific, or D&D) has plenty of "proper consequences" for such blundering brobdingnagian bluster ... little things like gravity, death, damage, and poisoned daggers in the back. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 17:11:14
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Er, attempting to steer back towards the Fey Realms ...
Nigel Pennick is a respected expert/researcher/author who's written numerous books about pagan religions, folklore, cultures, and history. His books are definitely worth reading if you're interested in learning more about Celtic, Norse, Germanic, Mediterranean, and (my fave) Slavic fey lore. Alas, none of his work is readily available online; ye must obtain his books through stores and libraries, but the ones I've read are definitely worth it. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Dec 2010 17:12:19 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 17:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well ... quite often it is actually their fault. You'd think level 99 PCs would know better. Nope. They still have an amusing tendency to fall off things, blindly charge into ambushes, Fireball their companions, stick their heads into traps out of curiosity and boredom, and unfailingly flash their blades, spells, and gold at anything that moves into visual range.
The universe (religious, scientific, or D&D) has plenty of "proper consequences" for such blundering brobdingnagian bluster ... little things like gravity, death, damage, and poisoned daggers in the back.
In my experience that gets old fast, once they learn there are consequences you can give them some slack. The main goal is fun and that they experience a great story, I don't have things like traps set in stone and don't have time for TPKs. It evens out, it seems that the universe is out to get them, but really is ''god protects fools and drunks'', lol.
Interesting from the link you posted the guy also wrote about the runes, geomancy and ley lines. I used something like that in the ruins of Ascore (mentioned here). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 18:10:36
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| lol, I didn't mention Pennick's books about mysticism since I expected that would veer the topic into digressions about Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, occultists in general, Enochian, hermetics, feng shui, dowsing, alchemy, Freemason conspiracies, thelemic libers, idol worshipping, Atlantis, healing crystals, and all the rest of that sort of stuff. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 18:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
lol, I didn't mention Pennick's books about mysticism since I expected that would veer the topic into digressions about Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, occultists in general, Enochian, hermetics, feng shui, dowsing, alchemy, Freemason conspiracies, thelemic libers, idol worshipping, Atlantis, healing crystals, and all the rest of that sort of stuff.
You know, the Freemasons are the ones that really murdered Mystra... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 18:54:00
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| Doesn't bug me. I'm a Zen Discordian. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 20:02:15
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lol, Arik you call yourself discordian and worry about going off topic, I excommunicate you by my powers as a Pope.
Now thinking of Eris, there's even more similarity of Maya and MT's chaos.
Really anything goes in this thread if put in some FR context. I don't know much about the things you mentioned except Atlantis (I use Azlant from Golarion for a pre-Sundering realm), and a bit about Freemasons (I had one plot involving the Knights of the Shield and the Maesters of GRRM I imported in Zazesspur; and the concept of the demiurge is kind of like Prometheus and the Grand Architect at the same time, controlling both sides). And I have Alchemy and Herbalists book by Schend. |
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Fey realms
