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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 03:17:41
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Ok...so lets talk a bit about only the original cosmology of AD&D outlined in the back of the Player's Handbook (1e) and the Manual of the Planes (again 1e).
From reading the Old Grey Box it looks as if this is indeed the planar cosmology of the Forgotten Realms.
Taking this into consideration, where would the Fey/Fairies reside again?
Also, how many of you still use "the Wheel" in your Realms? Why, Why Not and all that...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 04:38:43
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Fey would be a alternative prime material connected to the
plane of shadow with portals directly to it. I am still
more likely to use the Wheel due to how I liked the
Manuel of the Planes 1ed book. Very detailed. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 06:45:54
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Long-time scribes of Candlekeep will know that I've spent the better part of ten exhaustive years developing my own planar framework [I've the slightest inkling of what today's cosmologists must feel when working on their own models for the structure of our universe] -- which encompasses a vast cosmological structure and will [eventually, once I've defined a worthwhile definition for SageTime to work into my model] incorporate practically every published fictional world I can recall.
I've made allowances for the Great Wheel, the Planar Tree of 3e FR, the apparent uncertainties of the EBERRON cosmology, Ed's own take on the core Realms cosmology, real-world thinking, equations -- both fantastical and actual-astrophysics based, and the Gray of DARK SUN. I've incorporated the concepts embodied in the understanding of both the Phlogiston and the Crystal Spheres, the Far Realm, the Outside, the Uncreated, the Ruined, Faerie, Shadow, anti-Shadow, Time, Infinity, the Astral, the Drivespace of Star*Drive, KF-hyperspace of BattleTech, and the Negative Energy Plane [that's how I was able to allow the Capellan Confederation to form an alliance of mutual mutliversal totalitarianism with the Nariac Domain and the Harmonium], to name just a few examples.
As it stands now, if any particular planar-element has been mentioned just about anywhere, it has [or will have] a place in my cosmology. I don't expect I'll ever have a complete and workable model. But then that's the kind of legacy I'm leaving little Narnra -- whose already displaying an aptitude for planar mathematics that I would never have expected from one so young.  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 08:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wow. If you ever get a working model, I'd like to see it, Sage. Sounds fascinating!
Heh. The walls of one of my libraries are plastered with draft workings of what the cosmology *may* look like. There's so much of it, in fact, that the Lady K has started jokingly referring to it as "planar wallpaper." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 14:38:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Ok...so lets talk a bit about only the original cosmology of AD&D outlined in the back of the Player's Handbook (1e) and the Manual of the Planes (again 1e).
From reading the Old Grey Box it looks as if this is indeed the planar cosmology of the Forgotten Realms.
Taking this into consideration, where would the Fey/Fairies reside again?
I don't think the original d&d planar books determined where is Faerie, later in the Great Wheel it was defined as a realm that travels between the Beastlands (Happy Hunting Grounds), Ysgard, Arborea and rarely some other nature-oriented upper planar layer. There are some clues that the source of Faerie is the Ethereal plane. I don't know about Faeriespace, possible it was the first Prime ''garden''-realm of the fey, but the Seelie Court since then expanded with the formation of the Outer planes into an Astral-like Wood Beyond the Worlds.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Also, how many of you still use "the Wheel" in your Realms? Why, Why Not and all that...
Nothing nearly as complex as the Sage's cosmology, parts of the Wheel that I like are included in my homebrew planes. I feel certain planes of the Wheel are redundant, or too boring on their own, better to merge two or three of them. And the real world pantheons don't exactly fit the Realms, and I don't use monstrous deities, it's human-centric. Simplified, but still based on PS's Rule of Three. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 14:56:09
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I'm with Alystra. The Wheel is how I was introduced to the Planes, and I still think it's a far superior version of "what lies beyond the stars" than the "every world has its own cosmology" idiocy. I don't use the Sigil slang very much, just because I as a person have a hard time speaking in elaborate slang like that, but otherwise it's the Wheel as presented in Planescape.
I've also never seen the obsession with a specific "fey place." Fey creatures for me come mostly from Arborea, but are found throughout the upper planes. They don't have one specific place, and the Seelie Court goes where it wants. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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EltonJ
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 15:07:52
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| I also use my own Cosmology. I keep mine simple. :) I use real world physics, although my understanding about real world Cosmology has been turned upside down. I'm using the Plasma model of Cosmology right now and its neat. There are alternate worlds in my cosmology (after all, a Spirit or Ghost or Soul is infinite and experiences all things at once on a subconscious level). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 15:47:12
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I favor the Great Wheel, with my own added caveat that not all planes are on the Wheel. Because really, what is the Wheel? Is it an infinite but somehow circular plane, ringed with portals to other planes? Not as I see it -- I see it as the Outlands and the planes it links to, but there are other planes that don't link directly to the Outlands, and/or their portals are located elsewhere on the plane.
It's a very minor tweak, but it allows for the easy addition of however many planes one wants to add. Perhaps the planes on the Wheel are simply the "major" planes, and other planes either don't see enough travel and/or aren't well-known enough to merit a spot on the Wheel. Planescape is all about belief, so if people don't know of a plane's existence, there's no reason for them to believe it's part of the Wheel.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 16:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I favor the Great Wheel, with my own added caveat that not all planes are on the Wheel. Because really, what is the Wheel? Is it an infinite but somehow circular plane, ringed with portals to other planes? Not as I see it -- I see it as the Outlands and the planes it links to, but there are other planes that don't link directly to the Outlands, and/or their portals are located elsewhere on the plane.
And, of course, while I've tended toward a similar method in the past, I've also explored the possibility of what the "underside" of the Outlands is like. And the Anti-Spire, and Anti-Sigil too.
quote:
It's a very minor tweak, but it allows for the easy addition of however many planes one wants to add. Perhaps the planes on the Wheel are simply the "major" planes, and other planes either don't see enough travel and/or aren't well-known enough to merit a spot on the Wheel. Planescape is all about belief, so if people don't know of a plane's existence, there's no reason for them to believe it's part of the Wheel.
That's never really been a problem, though. As the PLANESCAPE setting has pointed out numerous times, so long as there's affirmative belief in the reality of a place, or plane, or other planar location... there's always room.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 17:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a very minor tweak, but it allows for the easy addition of however many planes one wants to add. Perhaps the planes on the Wheel are simply the "major" planes, and other planes either don't see enough travel and/or aren't well-known enough to merit a spot on the Wheel. Planescape is all about belief, so if people don't know of a plane's existence, there's no reason for them to believe it's part of the Wheel.
That's never really been a problem, though. As the PLANESCAPE setting has pointed out numerous times, so long as there's affirmative belief in the reality of a place, or plane, or other planar location... there's always room.
I get that, but some have pointed out in the past that the structure of the Wheel means you can't really squeeze in extra planes -- it would throw off the symmetry/balance of the Wheel. So this is my work-around for that: any other planes haven't passed the threshhold of knowledge or belief that would earn them a spot on the Wheel proper (as in, accessible from a gate-town on the Outlands). It's not that people don't believe in them and/or know of them, it's that there isn't enough belief or knowledge to make the plane prominent enough to be on the Wheel.
To phrase it in terms of popular music... If only a thousand people know of a band, that band won't make the Top 40. If a million people know of the band, then they can make the Top 40. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Oct 2010 17:23:41 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 17:38:51
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I'm currently of the belief that there are an infinite number of infinitely vast "Outer" Planes, and most of those are simply little known.
I like the idea that the wheel is infinite in scope, having no beginning and no end, with an infinite number of planes within its ring; and only those that are most "known" to a particular world being listed in that worlds cosmology.
While it may upset some, I never liked Sigil...so I don't use it. The spire in the center of the Outlands is many things though for many worlds. In some it is the Great World Tree, in others the Great Pillar that Holds Creation, and it could even be in others capped by Sigil...but each of these is (in its own place) simply another plane of existence...so at the "top" of the spire is an infinite number of infinities as well.
This gives me the most flexibility to tie everything with everything; and why the "Abyss" of Krynn is in fact a wholly different place than the "Abyss" of Greyhawk. They both exist, and perhaps very close to each other along the path of the Great Wheel...but still are separate and may not have much connecting the two, if anything at all.
Essentially in my cosmology all planes are possible, but you can't simply walk to the "edge" of one plane and suddenly be in another. Instead there are many places (portals, gates and such) that are unseen that allow beings to pass from one place to another.
Some worlds are filled with such gateways/portals, and others have very few of them...but they are all a remnant of when creation first occurred and everything was tied together because it WAS all together.
My "Big Bang" is another matter all together in which the planes were once all together...and somehow became different places over time and are still slowly pulling apart.
This is what I'm going to work into the Fey Backroads and such, they are essentially the same sort of planar portals as any other, but simply known and warded by the Fey.
As an example of how these wardings work, the Imaskari weren't so powerful as to shut off Faerun from the Gods...but only portals from specific planes. With these casual pathways blocked, the Gods were forced to come via another and longer pathway. If they had simply blocked the Gods with some powerful "planetary defense shield" that prevented those gods from coming to Faerun, then their Avatars wouldn't have been able to come to Faerun either. If the gods had destroyed the wards, they would have simply forever cut off their planes from Faerun altogether...just like when a Fey Warden is destroyed its end of the backroad is unusable except as an exit.
Anyway...that's it for the most part in a brief few words.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 17:55:49
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Faerie is a demiplane. I forget where it resided officially (and not near sources still) in the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology.
I personally placed it within the Plane of Dreams (the realm of all things 'fanciful').
If demi-planes floated within the Astral or Ethereal in 2e then I suppose it would be floating in the same over-plane that Ravenloft did. I posted my theories about Demi-planes being either proto-planes or 'dead gods' in another thread (or both - if the body goes to the astral, perhaps the consciousness floats 'elsewhere' and grows into a plane, with a demi-plane being a larval state). In 3e I changed this theory and think that planes normally only 'birth' a single demi-plane at a time, so Ravenloft would have been in the Plane of Shadows but not Faerie. In the 3e time-frame, the Feywild should have already existed, so that would be the plane it was 'nested' in (retroactive canon at its finest).
I believe in Planescape Faerie may have been in Olympus (the plane, NOT the Realm), with deep connections to both Mount Olympus (the Realm) and Arvandor. There would also logically be connections to the Celestial Beuracracy, but thats not canon.
In the 4e scheme of things, I now think the Feywild is actually a plane that 'grew' outward from Faerie; Faerie itself being it's core and a demi-plane originally. I imagine the original Fey Creator Race (the Le'Shay) created the demiplane themselves by 'slicing off' a piece of the plane of dreams (which is why I think the realm would have resided inside of the dream-Time originally).
I would imagine this would have been accomplished by some Elder Fey (Archfey) merging its consciousness with a portion of the Plane of dreams (in the same way I think that other demi-planes form). My choice for this would be Danu, who I have pegged as the mother of Titania and Aurilanna. 'The Goddess Danu' has now moved beyond the realm of worship, although all fey still say prayers to her for the sacrifice she made.
She also had a sister (twins were common-place amongst the Le'Shay) named Mara, who stayed on Toril after the Affair of the Black Diamond took place and the Le'Shay fled Realmspace, in order to help the Fey that stayed behind. Mara is also still remembered as a protector of the people and is paid homage (and not just on Toril). Mara merged her essence with the A'Mara Basin (Now just called the Ama Basin after all this time), and her power is still felt there.
Nearly all homebrew, of course, except for the few things that reference 2e/Planescape. 
EDIT: I am still doing work at my Ex's house, and in a box of old Comp mags I came across a single edition of Dragon magazine that got misplaced. It was issue #263, and it contains the 'Fey Gods' (or at least, their leaders as conceptualized by Shakespeare). Talk about serendipitous - I just came across that a couple of days ago.
It also contains some other great articles, including one about the 'Gods of the dark Ages', which includes the Anglo-Saxon Tir. Tir was/is a deity of law (titled 'Lord Justice') and pre-dated Tyr by about 400 years! This got me thinking - both the FR Tyr and the Norse Tyr are probably off-shoots (manifestations) of Tir, and embody different aspects of that older deity.
Ergo, we don't have to go with the 'which came first?" argument for the two Tyr's, since apparently both evolved from another source. Likewise, I think the older Tir aspect is an offshoot of something 'higher up' the divine food-chain (along with any other gods of vengeance, retribution, vindication, justice, and law). The Norse version is just given a very Viking-like spin, is all.
"We are all part of something greater then ourselves, even the gods" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2010 18:12:58 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 18:00:22
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| Still uses the Wheel/Ring and always will. However, I've added to it over the years. For example, I based Faerie on the book that Steven helped write which has the same name, which is Faerie. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 18:39:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wow. If you ever get a working model, I'd like to see it, Sage. Sounds fascinating!
Heh. The walls of one of my libraries are plastered with draft workings of what the cosmology *may* look like. There's so much of it, in fact, that the Lady K has started jokingly referring to it as "planar wallpaper."
I tried building a 'working model' of my own, but I really couldn't do it in 3 dimensions to do it justice.
I got as far as the Torus (donut-shape) for the Prime Material, which surrounds the Great Wheel. In my Cosmology, the Astral sits between the inner edges of Torus that is the Prime, with the Wheel spinning in its center. The Ethereal Plane is inside the torus itself, separating the Crystal Spheres that make up the Prime Material. At the tip of the Endless Spire lies the infinitely small Plane of Radiance (wherein dwells 'GOD?'?), and surrounding the whole thing - Torus, wheel, and transitive planes - lies the Shadowfel. Shadow is part of the Universe, and is the 'medium' in which everything else 'floats'. Beyond that lies the Far Realms - something completely outside of normal Time and Space.
Law sits at the center of the universe, with Shadow at its outer edge (and yet all around us), and pure Chaos beyond everything.
My Wheel is different as well - I have combined many planes and have only eight major planes, representing the eight compass-points of Alignment (yes, its a dated concept and theory). I am still able to work with all the canon - I just assume that the nature of the Wheel is seen differently by everyone, and the canon one is just one representation of it. Note I still have seven 'heavens' and nine 'hells'.
I even have a back-story of how Nirvana became Mechanus. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2010 21:59:28 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 21:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I even have a back-story of how Nirvana became Mechanus.
please enlighten us lol
quote:
Originally posted by EltonJ
I'm using the Plasma model of Cosmology right now and its neat.
How does that work? I've added the plasma portfolio to Lathander and equated it with phlogiston from Spelljammer.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, of course, while I've tended toward a similar method in the past, I've also explored the possibility of what the "underside" of the Outlands is like. And the Anti-Spire, and Anti-Sigil too.
What would be the shape of Anti-Sigil? I can't imagine it, so I've just placed Golarion's Axis on the other side. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 22:08:00
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Yeah, I've contemplated the underside as well - maybe that's where the Underealms lie (I think that's what it was called) - basically an underdark version of all the planes above.
As for the Mechanus/Nirvana thing, I think I covered that way back in the Utter East thread. Very bare-bones, just a concept really -
The Modrons were a creation of the Imaskari, in their quest to create the ultimate self-aware Automaton (Golem). Not sure about the specifics - either they just ported the whole group (that had run 'amok') to Nirvana, or they had done so purposely for some reason pertaining to the Vedic Pantheon.
Either way, the Modrons got there and 'set up shop'. I think Tvashtri gave them a hand, but I'm not sure if he was tricked, forced to, or just did so out of his desire to create and build. Either way, they used his workshop to duplicate themselves, and over time began to build alternate models for specific tasks, and eventually took-over Nirvana and renamed it.
Basically, Skynet/Terminator meets the Outer Planes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2010 22:09:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 01:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I tried building a 'working model' of my own, but I really couldn't do it in 3 dimensions to do it justice.
That's simple. You use TARDIS-style transcendental physics. 
quote:
I got as far as the Torus (donut-shape) for the Prime Material, which surrounds the Great Wheel. In my Cosmology, the Astral sits between the inner edges of Torus that is the Prime, with the Wheel spinning in its center.
I'm still working on how the Astral relates to my cosmological model. The real problem that exists is the fact that so many non-D&D worlds have what would normally be considered an Astral or Psionic plane, but they each relate differently to their respective prime worlds.
I'm thinking that the easiest explanation would be to simply suggest that each manifestation of the plane on these other worlds, is really just the result of the collective mental perception of each set of inhabitants. In other words, every world tends to view the core Astral according to their own inherent beliefs and conceptions.
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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Oct 2010 01:29:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 01:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, of course, while I've tended toward a similar method in the past, I've also explored the possibility of what the "underside" of the Outlands is like. And the Anti-Spire, and Anti-Sigil too.
What would be the shape of Anti-Sigil? I can't imagine it, so I've just placed Golarion's Axis on the other side.
I'll see if I can find the description of it I made on the old Realms of Evil website. It's on another [and very old] computer which isn't attached to the network I'm currently using.
Oh, and bear in mind that I borrowed heavily from DISCWORLD for this. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 12:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, and bear in mind that I borrowed heavily from DISCWORLD for this.
lol, the Turtle, that I'd have no idea how to incorporate. Even the crystal spheres are too weird imo.
Alternatively I thought Anti-Sigil could be Cynosure, or inhabited by the kamerel. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 20:14:56
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Kameral? I am unfamiliar with the Discworld - care to give the quick definition?
I don't have the book Beyond Countless Dorrways here with me, but there was a concept in there about an 'Underdark' transitive plane, that runs beneath and connects to all planes. That's kinda what I see going on in my own Under-Outlands. And of course, this would have MANY connections to the lower planes (if you look at tha wonderful 3D poster that came with the Planescape box, you can see how this would be possible).
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm thinking that the easiest explanation would be to simply suggest that each manifestation of the plane on these other worlds, is really just the result of the collective mental perception of each set of inhabitants. In other words, every world tends to view the core Astral according to their own inherent beliefs and conceptions.
My thoughts as well.
We know that the Feywild 'mirrors' the Prime Material worlds where it borders them, and its been alluded to that the Shadowfel may as well (although that lore isn't as definitive as the Feywild bit).
So what we have is the Prime Material 'central' to so many other planes. Perhaps its sheer 'physicality' is so substantial (compared to more 'fluid' planes) that it forces its own image upon the planes around it (at points where they intersect). This is very similar to what happens with the Border-Towns in the Outlands - the closer something is to another plane, the more 'like it' it becomes.
I think this isn't really different then the concept that mortals define their own reality. If the collective thoughts of the sentient beings on 'the other side' of the veil (planer barrier) affect the Prime material* - the most static of all the planes - then it stands to reason that this 'group consciousness' of the Sphere/Plane seeps through somewhat.
Ergo, the 'mirroring effect' we have with other border-planes is both a spectral duplication of things in the Prime Material, AND the perceptions of those mortal beings then viewing this psuedo-version of their own reality.
In other words, like a RW magician that fools the eye with illusion (distraction and trickery), our minds read more into this mirroring effect and interpret everything through this self-delusion. We see what we think we see, and what we expect to see. This relates to both RW phenomena Apophenia (seeing things in random patterns) and the ability for our senses to completely overlook things right in front of us (not sure if that one has a scientific name).
That newscast video is a bit long, but VERY interesting (and backs-up some statements I made in a now-closed thread). We don't actually 'see' what is real, we see what we expect to see.
*Magic in D&D is one way in which a mortal being can 'force' his own perception onto the physical world and 'overwrite it'. Certain Psionic abilities would be another. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Oct 2010 20:24:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 01:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Kameral? I am unfamiliar with the Discworld - care to give the quick definition?
Actually, the kameral are from PLANESCAPE. They're an ancient race who were originally from the Outlands. They lived there eons before the rilmani became the dominant race. The kamerel were quite neutral in that they kept to themselves mostly, barely acknowledging the existence of other races, until they started bothering them. Soon they grew to be xenophobic. The kamerel had a knack for the magic of mirrors which they were able to utilize as low level magic effects, allowing them to use such magic so close to the Spire. When they became aware of other races, they used this magic to spy on them. See the Tales of the Infinite Staircase module for more details.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 07:56:47
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Great Wheel works for my group; it's what we started with back in 1e and we kept it throughout PlaneScape "belief/reality" and beyond. I don't see any need to add planes when there's already an infinite number of layers of infinite planes (and infinite places between them) which can already accomodate pretty much everything. There's already Yggdrasil, Styx, Olympus, celestial staircases ... no conflict at all with the "new" 3e models, just a different way of looking at things. (Also a handy way to inconvenience PCs when in-game sages and tomes insist on using "foreign" cosmologies.) Whatever mental model or naming scheme makes it easiest on the players is good enough, the DM will still follow his own rules, and an objective observer will not notice any real functional difference.
Faerie and Prime are already separate planes, so there's no need to distance them spatially. They can (and probably do) occupy and share the "same" space at all times.
A mirror isn't a bad analogy, but a lens might be a better one ... perhaps imagine the famous old science screen saver lens "warping" the Windows desktop, then imagine a similar effect "warping" the boundaries between Prime and adjacent planes, a sort of moving semi-stable boundary, almost like a whirlpool or vortex. Nearby things tend to drift towards or into the focus of such a lens all the time (or "drag" the lens with them, unknowingly), but this isn't even noticeable unless a similar lens simultaneously exists on the other side of the boundary, like the bottoms of two whirlpools touching. Sometimes this might be a violent or obvious crossing of the planar boundary (ą la Gate spell), sometimes it might be a subtle and sinister transition that isn't noticed until you suddenly realize things around you are different (crap, this isn't Zhentil Keep, it's Ravenloft). Obviously the boundaries are "thinnest" in places where both of the adjacent planes have very similar (almost mirror-like) properties. Mileage doesn't apply on the planes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 08:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, the kameral do feature prominently in my new cosmology.
We had them too. Imaskar wanted to make a true ''mirror image'' of the Outlands on Toril, so they made nerras (from 3e Fiend Folio), powered-armor constructs to approach the xenophobic kamerel and learn their secrets. Kamerel were among the first fey to incarnate in the multiverse, their spirits merging with the shards from Mineral (elementals from Dragon 174). Some of them became the shards from the Gates of the Moon, the rest had their spiritedness sucked out by Shar's curse. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 19:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Faerie is a demiplane. I forget where it resided officially (and not near sources still) in the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology.
I would imagine this would have been accomplished by some Elder Fey (Archfey) merging its consciousness with a portion of the Plane of dreams (in the same way I think that other demi-planes form). My choice for this would be Danu, who I have pegged as the mother of Titania and Aurilanna. 'The Goddess Danu' has now moved beyond the realm of worship, although all fey still say prayers to her for the sacrifice she made.
In Planescape the children of Danu are Celtic powers. She moved on to become a higher form, sort of like Annam. Also says the powers dwelt in the prime-material paradise, the Isle of the West, consorting and bringing forth the creatures of faerie. Also Odin created faeries, elves, dwarves and trolls from the corpse of Ymir. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 23:42:08
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Here's how my simplified Wheel looks like, the basic outline.
There are three wheels within wheels, first is the Prime, then follow the three inner planes, and the largest wheel are the nine outer planes. Outside of it is the 13th Lovecraftian ''plane''. Names of the planes are in Imaskari, which I've kind of based on the proto-indoeuropean words. Based on the three archoncepts, Mystery (unknowable forces, the source of magic), Anomaly (forces that are exceptions to the rules, brought in when the fey interloped the multiverse, to liberate it), and Destiny (related to the fifth Creator Race and it's fate at the end of time involving the Far Realm).
The Prime is special, the real world, Toril is a combination of Zelazny's Amber and Bakker's Earwa. It's a point of maximum objectivity where the tendencies of individual souls are helpless before circumstance (gods). All other planes are diminished levels of the objectivity, abstract realities malleable to beliefs and wills. Only the Prime world has gods, three very different groups of powers. The planes were created by the collective unconscious of the Creator Races. It is a realm of triune nature, only place where substance-matter, essence-spirit and sentience-mind coexist.
The three inner planes are bound to the Prime in their own ways, they are all based on the ethereal and shadow.
Elemental Core of Scyrnel is the plane of Dyal, an overpantheon of human gods loosely allied against other extraplanar powers that try to find its way into the real world. Each god has its own demiplane, the rest of the plane is the Great Wheel's and other cosmologies's ethereal and elemental planes, chaotically mixed in together. Scyrnel is a realm of alchemy and psionics, giants, titans and other human immortals, the inner plane of Destiny.
World Tree of Derrwom is a realm of spirits, fey, kami, furies, leshi, quori, mortai, hags, genies etc., that roots out of the Elemental Core. It's the inner plane of Anomaly, an intruder, planted by fey from Beyond. It includes parts of the Wheel's Arborea, Ysgard and the Beastlands, Bastion Press's Faeries and Golarion's First World. The realm is godless, except for the the Kelphae (I don't use demihuman gods), who merged with human gods during the ritual of Faerun, e.g. powers of reincarnation like Chauntea, Malar, Silvanus.
Cosmic Helix of Serphala is the inner plane of Mystery, coiled around the World Tree like a caduceus, composed of nine layers organized like a cabbalistic sephirot, the knots that tie spirit and matter, all emanating from a single, mystic fiery source. It is a place where lost creator-races, the avians, amphibians and the serpents fight for dominion over skies, waters and lands. Includes the Dragon Eyrie, the Court of Light, Naacals, Lower Aerial Kingdoms, Smaragd and all other similar realms, collectively the powers of the place are know as Seulaapitll.
The nine outer planes connect with the inner planes through astral dreamscapes, and other stuff. They are realms of spirit, divided by Plato's tripartite theory.
Eternity of Aum is dualistic, consisting of the silvery void like the Astral, and of dark, sensory-deprivating void.
Outlands of Dwolanx are dualistic as well, with Mechanus at the centre and the Concordant Domains border other planes (the Ordial, Golarion's Axis ...).
Puerr is the outer plane of Mystery, extending from the Dweomerheart demiplane, it's a weird place of wonder, magic, puzles, arcana and dreams. A city of B'ymeih run by the Bleak Cabal is on the edge of Puerr and Hawoek into the Far Realms.
Hawoek the Blood Rift is the outer plane of Anomaly, plane of destruction, it breaks into all other realities, even the Prime. Inverted pockets of Hawoek are Carcerian. Contains the Abyss, Acheron, Gehennan laboratories of evil and Golarion's Abaddon. The river springs from the ''wounds'' of Ilsensine, the Great Mother, and Piscaethces.
Kerweid the Playlife is the plane of creation, the source of Phoenix's mindfire, includes Selera, the hyper-reality, some of Limbo and Golarion's Maelstrom and Elysium.
Three Glooms of Zlum is the Grey Waste and Barrens of Doom and Despair without the godly realms, pure evil and apathy.
Looep the Soulhaven has five layers, the outer plane of Destiny, based on the Wheel's Elysium, Golarion's Nirvana and some of Bytopia, pure good.
Nine Dominions of Inphedem is Baator, a few changes, mainly the names of the layers and creatures and their history.
Seven Aeons of Pleroma is a gnostic version of Celestia. Plus there are two old Arcadian rogue layers that are not zealous enough to fit in. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 18:15:08
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Insanely good stuff - between you and Gray my own Over-Cosmology has taken on a life of its own.
I use the the trinity in the form of Holistic teachings: Body (Prime Material), Mind (Astral), and Soul (Ethereal). A living mortal being is made up of equal parts of all three, and if one part is absent while one or more of the other parts are present, the state of 'Undeath' occurs.
There is an in-between state call 'Undying', which requires a phylactory (so the soul has not properly 'passed on)- the mind and Animus (physical force) are both still present, while the spirit is trapped.
I'm still working on that bit. That seed of an idea has blossomed thanks to some of the threads here, and I now realize that the 'phylactory thing' is really just a way for mortals to copy a higher being's state of existence. In essence, a Domain - as in Ravenloft or a Divine Realm - is the phylactory of a god. A spirit MUST be tied to something to anchor it and stop it from 'passing on'.
The natural mechanism of the universe (borrowing heavily from Gray here) is for everything to move from a state of 'creation' to a state of 'non-existence'. The Great Wheel becomes central to this, as it spins like a vortex and allowing 'life' to flow to 'death'. In essence, the Wheel Becomes vast and timeless artifact - a generator that powers the universe itself.
Chthon - the force that embodies chaos - strives to destroy the Wheel and return the universe to its natural state (unfettered chaos).
Anyhow, the Domain/Phylactory thing stops a spirit (weather ancient primal power or mortal) from continuing to flow in the direction of non-existance. This then becomes one of the Gods' greatest secrets, and the reason why you can kill them only within their own Realms.
Your planer trinity is interesting (Mystery, Enigma, and Destiny). I have to think on this - is it based on anything?
I have also incorporated the Prime-Material trinity into my cosmology - the three worlds of Oerth, Toril, and Krynn (called the Triad, IIRC). Still working-out the details, but it has to do with mortal races and who created them (each divine 'tier' got a chance for their own created races to become the 'Race of Destiny'). Krynn became the test-bed for the draconic races (created by the Drękons/Elder Gods), the Giants (created by the Jotuns/Ordials), and the Mortal races, who were divided into five groups by the Deities (Avian, Sauroid, Fey, Aquatic, and Sapien) to represent the elements and their forces: Air/electricity, Fire/heat, Earth/acid, Water/cold, and Alloy (sometimes called 'Wood' or 'Metal', and is a combination of the other four). The deities, of course, were working under the direction of the Prime Ordials - The Elemental Lords.
I haven't got all of that figured out yet either - still a 'Work in progress' for sure. I have to also explain divinity (which apparently has little to do with either 'godhood' or being a 'deity'). When any 'higher being' has access to the 'Divinity Template' it is able to garner power from mortals and bestow them with some of that borrowed energy. I think it may be some sort of 'cosmic trade-off'. By creating this conduit to the mortal world a god becomes vulnerable. Basically, it has aligned its Fate with that of its followers.
This is why many 'higher beings' (Gods) choose not to open this door - although potentially granting them much power, it is a two-edged sword. Like I said, still working out the kinks in this new (Gray-inspired) theory. I think by the time I'm done, I'll need not only a map of my cosmology, but a divine flowchart as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In Planescape the children of Danu are Celtic powers. She moved on to become a higher form, sort of like Annam. Also says the powers dwelt in the prime-material paradise, the Isle of the West, consorting and bringing forth the creatures of faerie. Also Odin created faeries, elves, dwarves and trolls from the corpse of Ymir.
VERY intersting.
I hadn't even been aware Danu was present in Planescape - I got her from my own Faery research (and have been using her since long before Planescape existed). This is further proof of my theory that the Celtic pantheon (or proto-celtic if you prefer) is deeply connected to the Fey one.
In my homebrew FR history, I have it where the early Elven settlers on Toril came into contact with the primitive humans and taught them their ways, which is where Faerunian Druidism and and some of Toril's early gods came from (antrhropomorphisized versions of Fey deities). Those entries concerning the first (non-Eladrin) Elves in the beginning of the GHotR really helped a lot with the fey/Elf connections and canonically bringing the Fey pantheon into early Toril.
Thus, like some of Toril's older deities, the Celtic Pantheon is nothing more then a world-specific version of Fey powers. Both stem from a common source.
Earth seems to be as important to the universal 'scheme of things' as Toril is, and I have to figure that connection out as well. I had a theory about Abeir-Toril being Earth far-removed in time (the whole 'Forgotten Realms' thing taken to the extreme), but I think assigning Oerth to that slot makes the most sense.
I'll be home in a few days and hopefully will be able to put all of this into a more coherent format. I think with all the help/info/input I've been getting from everyone a Fey Handbook is a definite possibility. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2010 18:23:37 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 22:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I use the the trinity in the form of Holistic teachings: Body (Prime Material), Mind (Astral), and Soul (Ethereal). There is an in-between state call 'Undying', which requires a phylactory (so the soul has not properly 'passed on)- the mind and Animus (physical force) are both still present, while the spirit is trapped.
That's another interesting way to view it. I wanted the gods closer to the Prime. The Fugue is in the ethereal/inner plane, it is a transient state for spirits where matter breaks down, and separates the body from the spirit and mind. Then in the Astral conduits the mind dissolves, spirit losing self-reference, leaving only the soulstuff to comprise the outer planes. Then it begins anew when the mindfire bursts from the source. Soulstuff cannot be destroyed, only by daemons (from Golarion's cosmology).
In 4e I think they have a similar system like yours, with animus and something, that's how they create wraiths. I've never given it thought only about the undying who were composed of positive energy.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In essence, a Domain - as in Ravenloft or a Divine Realm - is the phylactory of a god.
yea, that's why the petitioners merge with the divine realm
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Chthon - the force that embodies chaos - strives to destroy the Wheel and return the universe to its natural state (unfettered chaos).
Similar to the proteans from Golarion. Chthon is great name. In my games Talos is a construct (Greek mythology) that holds such force. Built by the Azlanti and fey. But the fey tricked them, the construct accumulates energy, that will one day break the planes of law.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Your planer trinity is interesting (Mystery, Enigma, and Destiny). I have to think on this - is it based on anything?
Mostly homebrew. They are not gods, sort of nonsentient forces, universal ''patterns''. It's a very long story, based on various sources. In the Tall Tales from Mystara it says the previous multiverse ended with everything merging, opposite to entropy now. Then the leshay myth says they were involved in something like that. So I made the fey rebel against the synthesis. I changed the cycle of two multiverses into an endless cycle of them falling apart and reviving. It seemed that the multiverse is flawed, and one force behind it all. I called it the Demiurge. Earliest Demiurges were platonic, well-meaning yet flawed. The current force is gnostic and tyranical. With every incarnation it gets worse, that is true entropy (Shar), the forgetfulness of good. I made the fey beings of Anomaly who escaped into the perfect REALity beyond the Demiurge. That previous multiverse ended when the draeden (Immortals book from Mystara, and Fiendish Codex I) devoured everything, including the Far Realm and themselves. The Demiurge survived cause it can adapt to anything, survived by becoming anomalous itself, as a dream-wave (of renewal). The Demiurge restarted the multiverse like a phoenix, its mindfire purging the Far-Realmsian stuff (flawed previous muliverses). Laws of causality worked well until some fey chose to return (limit themselves) and unravel the dream-reality. They predicted the humans (or what evolved from them) would be crucial for that, hence the name ''race of destiny''. The fey bound themselves to their homeworld. Fey introduced the undeterminable, with Lurue becoming the first avatar of Mystery (source of magic, scientifically unexplainable) and various luck and trickster powers becoming avatars of Anomaly. I first got the idea when Cyric seemed to defy Ao, changed that a bit. Then Shar (Y'chak the Violet Flame from Lords of Madness) let the Far Realm on the fey. There's a lot more to the story, but I can't write.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have also incorporated the Prime-Material trinity into my cosmology - the three worlds of Oerth, Toril, and Krynn (called the Triad, IIRC).
yea, I've seen something similar in Spelljammer, these other worlds are not that interesting imo, a couple of things to steal from Oerth lol
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...This is why many 'higher beings' (Gods) choose not to open this door ...I haven't got all of that figured out yet either - still a 'Work in progress' for sure. I have to also explain divinity (which apparently has little to do with either 'godhood' or being a 'deity'). When any 'higher being' has access to the 'Divinity Template' it is able to garner power from mortals and bestow them with some of that borrowed energy.
The double-edged sword theory is great. I explain the gods as an expression of collective mortal belief against the horrors of the universe and the unknown. Mortals choose not to ''see'' weird things. But I use just gods for the Prime and planar bosses, beings above not really, only a bit in the Semphari religion which is sort of Zoroastrian (the Demiurge).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I hadn't even been aware Danu was present in Planescape - I got her from my own Faery research (and have been using her since long before Planescape existed). This is further proof of my theory that the Celtic pantheon (or proto-celtic if you prefer) is deeply connected to the Fey one.
yea, On Hallowed Ground.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have it where the early Elven settlers on Toril came into contact with the primitive humans and taught them their ways, which is where Faerunian Druidism and and some of Toril's early gods came from (antrhropomorphisized versions of Fey deities).
possibly the Yuir pantheon
Cause I use Golarion and Azlant, it's a bit different. The Talfiric druids survived the Sundering by allying with the fey. They were from the Wylder faction (Planescape), more nature-oriented than the Expansionist artificers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 00:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In essence, a Domain - as in Ravenloft or a Divine Realm - is the phylactory of a god. A spirit MUST be tied to something to anchor it and stop it from 'passing on'.
I've actually tinkered with a similar theory... suggesting that the Dark Powers, who were/are actually lich-like baernaloths, used the Demiplane of Dread as a mass-collective phylactery after they were expunged from the rest of the multiverse in a war with the ancient baatorians. Many sages suspect, at least across the various D&D worlds in my omniverse, that this was how the Blood War really started and that the yugoloths are now seeking a kind of revenge through their subtle manipulation of the infamous conflict. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Using the Great Wheel in the Forgotten Realms
