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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 02:26:09
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| And to think, I don't add anything to mine. I am so boring. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 03:41:19
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I guess for my Realms I'll be using the Great Wheel as presented in 1e.
The Faerie Court will indeed simply be a mobile thing between some of the upper planes. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 04:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In essence, a Domain - as in Ravenloft or a Divine Realm - is the phylactory of a god. A spirit MUST be tied to something to anchor it and stop it from 'passing on'.
I've actually tinkered with a similar theory... suggesting that the Dark Powers, who were/are actually lich-like baernaloths, used the Demiplane of Dread as a mass-collective phylactery after they were expunged from the rest of the multiverse in a war with the ancient baatorians. Many sages suspect, at least across the various D&D worlds in my omniverse, that this was how the Blood War really started and that the yugoloths are now seeking a kind of revenge through their subtle manipulation of the infamous conflict.
I'm liking Mark's idea, myself... What if Ravenloft is the dreams or the last remaining conciousness of a fallen deity? Maybe the Dark Powers are what remains of this deity's awareness... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In essence, a Domain - as in Ravenloft or a Divine Realm - is the phylactory of a god. A spirit MUST be tied to something to anchor it and stop it from 'passing on'.
I've actually tinkered with a similar theory... suggesting that the Dark Powers, who were/are actually lich-like baernaloths, used the Demiplane of Dread as a mass-collective phylactery after they were expunged from the rest of the multiverse in a war with the ancient baatorians. Many sages suspect, at least across the various D&D worlds in my omniverse, that this was how the Blood War really started and that the yugoloths are now seeking a kind of revenge through their subtle manipulation of the infamous conflict.
I'm liking Mark's idea, myself... What if Ravenloft is the dreams or the last remaining conciousness of a fallen deity? Maybe the Dark Powers are what remains of this deity's awareness...
Really, I've played around with a multitude of theories about the Dark Powers. They're almost as varied as my theories about the Lady of Pain.  I do like the the dream-scape idea. Though it could potentially cause some conflict with the Nightmare Man and his dominion of dreams and sleepy-time adventures.
Of course, the entire concept also borrows heavily from Lovecraft's "Dreamlands." Though I shudder at the possibilities that could eventuate if I somehow laid the foundation that the Realm of Dread was perhaps the physical manifestation of some pent-up frustration of Nyarlathotep.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 09:22:18
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I thought the 4e lore tried to lump all the Lovecraftian-flavoured "Abberation" stuff into the alien and inimical "Far Realms"?
Some little stuff (Illithids, Aboleths, Phaerimm?) leaks through ... but following this model, you could assume for example that beating up Cthulhu would "exile" him back to his native realm ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 21:38:12
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I've re-assigned 'Cthulhu' to his original Lovecraftian purpose. Cthulhu is NOT the god of Chaos - Cthulhu is a Chosen of said being. 
Cthulhu is ascended mortal, probably an Illithid. It worships Hastur, who is a Primordial. Chthon is undefinable - it was the second being to come into existence, after the first expunged chaos from its awareness.
Io - representing 'balance' - was probably the third being to coalesce. The duality of the separation of the first two (The Universe and that which exists outside it) created the concept, and thus created the trinity (by creating the elder god of neutrality). Hence the rule of three was created mere moments after the universe was created.
All concepts must have their opposing force, and there must also be a 'fulcrum' where balance is maintained. A lack of balance causes 'drift' toward one extreme or the other. Move too far in either direction and the universe could be destroyed.
Thus we have the ultimate paradox - Chthon's striving to return the universe to its primal condition actually keeps it in balance. It is probably aware of this, but is unable to act upon it due to its nature.
@Althen Artren: Most people don't - almost none of this ever comes into play. What it does is help us picture how things truly work behind the scenes, so that we can make better judgment calls during our games (at least, that's why I do it). How am I suppose to know what effect a certain action will have if I don't have a model of the underlying forces?
@Quale: I got the Animus idea from 4e. I was playing with varying concepts myself, and had a germ of an idea, and the 4e preview books fleshed that out. from what I understand, much of what was discussed in those two preview books never actually made it into the game. More's the pity.
As for the triad (Toril, Oerth, and Krynn), I took that from Spelljammer. Although I was never a big fan of the setting, I still have to shoehorn its lore into my model of the universe. In my mind, there has to be a reason why, of all the worlds, only those three Spheres are 'fixed' and stay in a perfect formation to each other.
For awhile, I toyed with the idea that Abeir-Toril was the primordial 'laboratory' wherein the rest of the universe was designed. Hence all the portals (gates to other worlds) and pools (places of power where a divine being can tap into the forces of its home plane), and the myriad races (an in-game explanation of FR becoming TOO 'D&D-ish', IMHO). I borrowed this concept from the Well World novels, which is how my original GM spun things in his campaign.
Now that my model has grown to include at least two higher 'tiers' of godhood, I can marry the Giant/Dragon schism to it and use the triad as my 'laboratory'. So those three worlds become the 'first of many'. Mystara also holds a special place - it was the first true world created after the Triad.
The Blackmoor civilization was actually a mobile planet-forming lab - think of it as a 'field camp', used by the immortals (first deities). Every planet contains some legends and ruins associated with it (as does at least 3 official settings). Ergo, its first incarnation would have been on Mystara. In my campaigns, all worlds are linked to Blackmoor still (think Elric/Moorcock's Tanelorn), and I've toyed with the idea that the World serpent Inn was once located in Blackmoor.
I like the idea of an earlier universe. In my model, it took three tries before The ONE was able to expunge chaos from its emerging sentience. Since time did not yet exist, those two earlier attempts could be where I can 'stash' things I can't explain (but are not aberrations).
Like Galactus.
I had a theory I posted on the WotC boards awhile back about the Fey - that they exist 'in reverse' - and the Illithids: that the Fey were created at the end of time in order to stop some universal catastrophe that the Illithids were responsible for. This is why Fey creatures appear to 'dwindle' over time - their lives are working in the other direction to ours, and as they age (in reverse) they grow larger and more powerful.
However, that was so convoluted (and hard to picture) that I abandoned the idea. Seems like the Le'Shay material is using something similar now. I still think there is a connection between them and the Mindflayers, but the reverse time things is unwieldy.
If the creator races were designed so that one would become 'the Race of Destiny', then it would make sense that the Sauroid, Avian, and Aquatic ones are also trying to thwart the aberrations in their plans (to destroy the universe, most likely). That could be why some of them worked together for a time. I have to think on that more - I like where this is going.
RagnaRock and roll, baby.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Oct 2010 21:49:37 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 01:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Chthon is undefinable - it was the second being to come into existence, after the first expunged chaos from its awareness.
I've got Chthon is my Realms too. Complete with a copy of The Darkhold, the Redeemers, the Vishanti, the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth, Agamotto, the Shades of Seraphim, and the Seven Rings of Raggador.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 05:22:04
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I'm sort of inclined to believe that things in the universe tend to swirl around in identifiable patterns, which on the order of "first gods" (immortals, primordials, whatever) has consequences of divine magnitude - entire worlds appear which, in part, tend to resemble or almost mirror each other. So a lot of ancient ruins/legends, peoples and civilizations, and major events and themes (like, say, gods-battle-titans) are just sort of "echoed" into the nature that defines many worlds. Throughout time as well (past, present, future), so some events seem to have "happened" in impossibly different places while others are essentially unavoidably fated.
Basically, my view is that the worlds are all imperfectly "copied" versions of a single world where these godly things actually "first" take place. The D&D worlds known to us are almost like fallout. Even the gods themselves, or aspects which share their names and similar attributes, tend to occur and reoccur with some frequency across the worlds, doing much the same things they've always done and will do. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 05:26:40 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 11:30:57
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That's how I view the similarities between worlds too, Arik. The story about the migrations from Earth through the gates and the Imaskari slavers was never believable imo.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Quale: I got the Animus idea from 4e. I was playing with varying concepts myself, and had a germ of an idea, and the 4e preview books fleshed that out. from what I understand, much of what was discussed in those two preview books never actually made it into the game. More's the pity.
They had a book called Open Grave, maybe there
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the triad (Toril, Oerth, and Krynn), I took that from Spelljammer. Although I was never a big fan of the setting,
personally great parts of Spelljammer are the monsters, phlogiston, and the ships
for someone that likes all three worlds their fixed points are interesting
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Blackmoor civilization was actually a mobile planet-forming lab - think of it as a 'field camp', used by the immortals (first deities).
I used some the Black Ice idea for the ice age of Toril, the rest is too high tech for my tastes
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had a theory I posted on the WotC boards awhile back about the Fey - that they exist 'in reverse' - and the Illithids: that the Fey were created at the end of time in order to stop some universal catastrophe that the Illithids were responsible for. This is why Fey creatures appear to 'dwindle' over time - their lives are working in the other direction to ours, and as they age (in reverse) they grow larger and more powerful.
If the creator races were designed so that one would become 'the Race of Destiny', then it would make sense that the Sauroid, Avian, and Aquatic ones are also trying to thwart the aberrations in their plans (to destroy the universe, most likely).
yea, I remember your theory about going backwards in time
in the story I had the other creator races somehow failed their destiny and dwindled, the fey slowly fade into the Prime world and its people, their spirits are woven into, in that way they'll take part in what happens in the end
proto-humans were enslaved and genetically altered by the illithids, to change their path, but then the Gith rebellion happened, leaving things undetermined
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Cthulhu is ascended mortal, probably an Illithid. It worships Hastur, who is a Primordial.
he is mentioned being a priest of something, don't remember. I'd use him as a being who corrupted the batrachi
I had Hastur (King in Yellow) and the ruins of Carcosa in the Quoya desert, inspired by the Illuminatus novels |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 11:50:47
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| It's a little off topic here, but I'm disinclined towards the reversed-elves concept. It seems like it would create a lot more problems than it explains away. I like the Piers Anthony Incarnations of Immortality concept of the "god" Chronos having a lifespan which flows through reverse-time (explaining how he knows events in everybody else's future). And I don't mind the (almost) existence of Chronomancers (time mages) in my worlds, since they can conveniently explain away some of the calendar typos recorded in Realmslore ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 17:13:43
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Yeah, I abandoned the reverse-aging thing soon after thinking of it. As I said, it is a cool concept but entirely too unwieldy.
I like the 'echoes of other worlds' model as well, and used to use that before second edition and Planescape. Once the worlds were tied-together in a physical fashion, the redundancy of events strained my level of believability.
For instance, the decent of the Drow - that happened EVERYWHERE?
These 'echoes' had to emanate from somewhere - some primal world - and that's why I think Abeir-Toril is the best candidate. Ergo, tales told on other worlds are memories of events that happened on Toril (thanks to all its portals). Some events - like a lot of what happened in various mythologies - probably happened in the outer planes, and the stories are filtered through the perceptions of the god's clergies on each world.
Item of note: Using the Moorcockian model (Elric) for the universe, it appears that divine beings (immortals, whatever) are affected by the rules of the world they appear on, and they change from world to world. On some they are super-powerful, and yet on others they don't exist. I take a lot of that into account when I do my cosmic musings - the gods are somehow closely linked to the worlds, prbably through their worshipers.
Ergo, it isn't really the gods who are in charge at all, since mortals can greatly effect their existence on each world. Gods in Moorcock's novels must actively work to keep themselves powerful on each world, through belief. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 17:59:41
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| In my mind there's no reason to necessarily believe that any particular world was "first" or "central". The echoes of these things are in fact the things themselves ... so the history of the Drow which impossibly occurs everywhere simultaneously is in fact the one true history. I suppose that if you speculate on the earlier suggested "laboratory" concept then there's no particular requirement that the worlds/universe that currently exist are in fact the finished product. The experiment of the gods still bubbles, the working prototype still unfinished. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 18:01:17 |
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Using the Great Wheel in the Forgotten Realms
