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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 17:17:38
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Ok i've typically just made a random encounter roll during the night hours to see if the party is attacked and they either catch some "z's" or whammmo! But I had a player ponder sleeping arrangements for a three-man group.
If characters require 8 hours sleep or suffer fatigue how do they all get rest nightly while keeping watch? Also, I was wondering the logic of sleep and the 24-hour day. You need 8 hours sleep, spend 8 hours travel and 8 hours doing "other" things such as eating...and what? Crafting? Reading? I know no one's watching TV. What "other things" do your players do? And who spends 8 hours a day on hobbies?
Any idea for time frames? If I awaken at 6Am (game time) eat, break-camp and set out traveling (for my 8 hours) lets say im waliign from 9-5. Reset camp, munch on my trail rations and have to be in bed by 10 to get my sleep?
Anyway Im just pondering how others see the day-to-day grind of the traveling adventurer
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 18:13:13
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You're largely in the right. Naturally it depends on the composition of the party. Characters with the endurance feat (rangers) can resist the nonlethal damage of rugged terrain, weather, fatigue and forced travel better than most.
A three man party could set up camp at dusk (usually around 5 or 7 o' clock) which can take a full hour, fiddle around with their personal belongings for about 2 hours and start the rest sequence at 9 or 10 in the evening. A twelve hour period would be needed to fully rest a 3 man team. The first guy's watch is 4 hours followed by 8 hours of sleep; the second watch would have 4 hours of sleep, 4 hours of watchduty followed by the rest of the 4 hours of sleep; and the last watch would start with 8 hours of sleep followed by 4 hours of rest. Uninterrupted sleep would make this even more timeconsuming; a full 16 hours would be needed, 8 hours of watch with 1 sentry followed by 8 hours of a two man sentry. The following morning and twelve to sixteen hours later at 9 or 10 o' clock in the morning or 1 or two o' clock in the afternoon the party would be fully rested.
More than 8 hours of (strenous) activity will lead to fatigue so a march from 9 till 5 would force a party to set up camp again, fill it up with their daily activities till dusk sets in and the proces of watch duty and rest would be reinitiated.
This filling in of the hours can be very diverse. This could be discussions on planned future actions, exchange of travel or adventuring stories, reading, dozing, equipment maintenance, crafting, training of skills or class abilities, hunting, foraging, cooking, personal hygiene, writing of personal diaries, mapmaking, meditation or a plethora of other enjoyable leisure time activities. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 19:21:05
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Flipping though the SRD 3.5, I fail to find a rule that a non spell caster requires 8 hours sleep. Further even a spell caster is not required to actually sleep 8 hours (sleep or rest (not moving) is all that is required in order to relearn spells. Not sure what 4th says about sleep.
Thus it appears that party composition can effect the amount of time required to be in camp with a watch. Often travel does not require use of many spells, so it becomes possible that even 3 spellcasters could split watch in another way. Every third day one stands watch for 8 hours while the other two sleep or rest. In more extreme situation the one that has the fewest spells to relearn could stand the watch, at least a few days in a row.
In general one would camp for 16 hours a day, involved includes setting up camp, breaking down camp, eating, tending mounts and gear and of course getting some rest.
Bladewind's watch schedule clearly appears the best with a non spell caster taking the middle. With 3 spellcasters depending on rules interpretation applied there still would be 8 hours rest that might allow preparing spells.
As for crafting during travel, it really depends on the craft. Some clearly would not be done on the march, it is hard to carry all things needed to do smith work, with possible only able to do minor repairs at best. An equipped smithy weighs a lot. Other crafts, something like rope braiding (or any other craft that requires few tools could be used during travel. This type of craft could be done while standing watch, it might help to keep a guard alert and less bored (bored people sometimes fall to sleep). There other crafts requiring more concentration and more tools clearly could be pursed before the rest period. Only 4 hours, but some work certainly can be completed. Depending on the craft, this also might need to be considered when doing watch work. The same of course would apply to profession, it becomes it depends on what it is and how important the party needs or want it used during travel.
Crafting would tend to be done in a safe place when little or no travel would be conducted during the day.
All in all what occurs depends on many factors while doing travel. So has to be determined by party members and the amount equipment traveled with. With wagons a blacksmith certainly could transport all needed, carts or pack animals also allow for such a possibility.
The best solution for a three member party concerning rest is to travel with an NPC, a merchant group or other wise in effect to have the total party larger then 3 persons. For low level party it could be hiring guards, higher levels they could have henchmen or perhaps followers. Again it depends of party.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 19:47:25
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I dont buy into this "needs 8 hours of sleep" stuff. After all, most people today are getting by with an average of 6 hours of sleep. I lean more toward the "requires 8 hours of rest" mentality. Rest can mean a combination of sleep and just relaxation. I also typically dont require this to all happen in a contiguous 8 hours. If they get interrupted by an encounter half-way through, it doesn't completely interrupt the cycle. As long as they continue to rest afterwards and the total rest equals 8 hours I give my group the benefit of the doubt and say they are rested. However, if they continually get interrupted in the middle of the night (maybe 3 or more nights in a row), then I may start to have them incur some fatigue penalties.
I also dont break the day into 8 hour sections. Typically I tell the group they spend 10 hours a day on the road. This would represent a non-tiring walking pace with frequent breaks. I also figure they would spend 1 hour before and 1 hour after breaking down and setting up camp, respectively. This actually ends up leaving them 4 hours a day for activities such as hunting, cooking, repairing, etc..
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Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 20:26:33
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In many of my games, spellcasters usually get enough rest simply traveling. I know horses are rough to ride for long periods of time; but I've had a wizard take two mules, strap a couple of boards between them, lay a cot on it and have someone else in the party lead the mules.
Viola! Travel = rest.
Doesn't always happen obviously, but there are ways to sleep even while traveling...especially for old wizards! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 22:29:49
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Regarding sleeping while travelling...
The last party in which I played (rather than DM'd) purchased a full-on Luxury Battle Waggon (LBW). It was a custom job,and cost close to ten thousand golds in Scornubel (where our then-DM determined the bast wagon-makers in the region were located). It took a month, loads of money, and the services of not only the cartwright, but also an armorer, a lapidary, a draper, a carpenter, a wizard, a priest, and a seige engineer. At the end of the day, we had a wagon which was 35'long and 15' wide made of magically-hardened oak, layered over with steel plates, riding on 8 wheels with sear springs for suspension, which it needed, since it was being pulled by a team of golem horses. It had a pair of ballistae, and slept 4 in opulent luxury, and had been treated with permanent versions of firequench, magic circle against evil, and forbiddence. The Gnome artificer incorporated dozens of items into the LBW, including HVAC, limited-capability hoverflight (in case its bulk caused a bridge to collapse), flushable toilets, a mechanical butler (artificer version of unseen servant) and several well-disguised (but eerily potent) weapons, both for point defense and seige warfare. He sunk, like, an entire LEVEL worth of xp into this stuff.
We called in dozens of favors, and spent hours and hours of gametime making this thing. We hired a band of mercs to be our outriders (and to guard this monstrosity whilst we were dungeon-crawling or problem-solving,or whatnot). The first night we left it behind, the mercs took it to the nearest city and sold it for 400 gold. We were unhappy. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 00:56:46
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Knight.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA. That had to suck sooo bad. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 01:33:38
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| Yeah, for the mercs. Anybody with that much gold and personal power wouldn't find it the least bit hard to track both it and them down. I expect the repercussions were rather... final. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 04:01:39
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The final fallout from this was that we tracked down the mercs (they had gone to Ireabor), and my PC (A world-weary retired Purple Dragon) and the Cleric of Shaundakul drug them before the local magistrate while the (less morally upright)rest of the party went after the LWC. The mercs had sold it to a chop-shop which had blunted any number of tools trying to take it down to component pieces. One of them made the mistake of dismantling the gnome's Devices. He took it... badly. The Gnome's alignment was permanently altered by the actions he took in the shop that day. He was a much *darker* lil fella after that.
It bears mentioning that we were 9th level at this time- we had loads of money only b/c we had incurred the wrath of the Cult of the Dragon... AND the Iron Throne. Well, the I.T. crowd didn't know about the Cult and vice versa. And the Iron Throne came for us... after we had joined a Cult caravan incognito as guards, hoping to find their hidden base. So they wasted each other while we mostly hid under a wagon. Which turned out to be full of gold to use as a bribe for a dragon. Hence our purchase of the LBW.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 02 Oct 2010 04:13:36 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 04:15:11
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Remembering it definately makes me miss playing!
Sorry to threadjack your topic, Saxmilian... I just couldn't resist telling that story. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 11:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Regarding sleeping while travelling...
The last party in which I played (rather than DM'd) purchased a full-on Luxury Battle Waggon (LBW). It was a custom job,and cost close to ten thousand golds in Scornubel (where our then-DM determined the bast wagon-makers in the region were located). It took a month, loads of money, and the services of not only the cartwright, but also an armorer, a lapidary, a draper, a carpenter, a wizard, a priest, and a seige engineer. At the end of the day, we had a wagon which was 35'long and 15' wide made of magically-hardened oak, layered over with steel plates, riding on 8 wheels with sear springs for suspension, which it needed, since it was being pulled by a team of golem horses. It had a pair of ballistae, and slept 4 in opulent luxury, and had been treated with permanent versions of firequench, magic circle against evil, and forbiddence. The Gnome artificer incorporated dozens of items into the LBW, including HVAC, limited-capability hoverflight (in case its bulk caused a bridge to collapse), flushable toilets, a mechanical butler (artificer version of unseen servant) and several well-disguised (but eerily potent) weapons, both for point defense and seige warfare. He sunk, like, an entire LEVEL worth of xp into this stuff.
We called in dozens of favors, and spent hours and hours of gametime making this thing. We hired a band of mercs to be our outriders (and to guard this monstrosity whilst we were dungeon-crawling or problem-solving,or whatnot). The first night we left it behind, the mercs took it to the nearest city and sold it for 400 gold. We were unhappy.
Were you guys featured on the show Pimp My Wagon?  |
Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 13:08:52
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Anything I can do to get a fellow player to "miss playing" then my work is done. And Alystra is right it sounds like a fun game you were playing! I was more intrested in the thread of 8 hours sleep, 8 hours rest and 8 hours "other" stuff and how logical is that. I agree on the thread that nowadays no one sleeps 8 hours, (Heck Im fine on 6 and seem fully functional on 5 and cant seem to sleep more than seven unless Im sick)but my group likes "formula" for the rules and thats where Im coming up short.
"My fighter has a Constitution of 18 and the mage has an 11 and I cant out-march him without getting tired?" I say no, you can, see when you make a Save to resist being fatigued you'll have a massive bonus--he wont.
"But if I fail the save and he makes his then Im tired and old Mc-wheezy-butt the 300 year old human mage out marches me?"
"No see you'll feel the effects of the march far less than he will, your stamina and hit points make you (physically) superior"
"Dude! He needs a walker to get around and Im in my physical prime! I cut down a handful or Orc with a sword that weighs almost as much as he does!"
"ok well...um...Ok you can perform intense labor for (X * longer than the mage)...???
LOL.They are a great bunch but Im the only player with more than a few weeks game experience and like i said, they like knowing why this rule is the rule.
Thanks to all for the replies. Ive some ideas bouncing around in my head (remminant of a drawer full of silverware being dropped on the floor) and all your replies helped. If anyone has a Group similar to mine I'd love to hear more ideas, house-formula, thoughts and even some rants...I love this site! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 18:04:28
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Fatigue, The fighter is wearing/carrying much more then the mage is. So the Con. argument can be addressed in that way. Just indicate that Str. is not the only factor considered.
As to 8/8/8 the best way to answer that is D&D uses broad concepts as a rules base, rather then going into far more involved details as to actions, limits and abilities. The one reason for this approach is to try to balance the classes and that house rules concerning the basics could upset game balance. You also should remember that changing rules for movement or fatigue will also apply to monsters and NPCs.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 17:03:03
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There is no reason why the guy with the 11 constitution can't keep up with the 18. Even 11 is "above average." Your typical NPC is going to have 9 or 10 in the stats (unless they've changed that in the newer editions.) You're average NPC farmer, soldier, merchant, carpenter, whatever will be able to walk just as fine as any player character. Now if your PC had a real low constitution, I can see having him/her becoming the one holding back the group. But with an 11? Nah, I wouldn't even be concerning yourself about that. He can march, hike, swim, etc.. just as well as the other guy. The only time I would even bother with that stuff is if you are doing stuff like forced marches over days, or swimming for days (like if your boat got sunk.) Then the guy with the lower constitution will tire before the other guy. But if you are just talking about normal walking, I wouldn't even bother worrying about that stuff.
And if your group just can't get their mind around anything other then a 8/8/8 work day, just tell them 8 hours is sleeping, 8 hours is walking, and 8 hours is other stuff like setting up and breaking down camp, hunting, sharpening weapons, maintaining armor, etc.
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Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 18:11:57
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Fizilbert, Err sometimes Con. clearly is a factor in the rule set. Swimming vs. drowning for example. Saxmilian is seeking ways of explaining to his players why the rules are the way they are and should not be house ruled to allow fatigue and/or other rules should be changed.
As to 8/8/8 that is simplification of the actual rules concerning travel. The rules actually is the most travel a character can do is 8 hours at a travel rate adjusted by conditions. That is as much distance that can be covered at such a rate. Actual travel rate per turn of round is faster. The daily travel rate includes stopping for breaks, canters, walking (if using mounts), drinking water and the occasional NPC encounter (discussion or combat).
IRL most humans can travel 2.5 miles to 5 miles per hour carrying few things. There is also clearly the possibility to walk/ride for more then 8 hours and maintain a travel rate of at least 2 miles an hour average. The travel rules are a factor of balance and ease of details. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sleeping
