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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 03:59:08
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This thought occured to me when I was trying to help Marquant Volker with naming some dwarven items in a recent thread of his: I can't seem to find how exactly to place certain words or phrases in Dwarven to make them coherent.
Now, I have a copy of Dwarves Deep, but I am struggling to find an explenation of how to do such as I mentioned above. Did Ed Greenwood ever mention such at all previously, or is this going to be something new for him ( or an equally knowledgable person) to discuss?
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Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 28 Sep 2010 15:23:48
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 15:22:24
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Dang, it's been over a day, and all I've gotten is 38 views and no replies. 
I mean, please, nobody post that they don't know, but I would think that at least Old Sage would've possibly known something about this. I mean, is my question that unique or something?  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 01:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I can't seem to find how exactly to place certain words or phrases in Dwarven to make them coherent.
Now, I have a copy of Dwarves Deep, but I am struggling to find an explenation of how to do such as I mentioned above.
Could you be more specific as to what you mean by "place certain words or phrases in Dwarven to make them coherent"? "Place them" in what context, for what purpose, and where? Which words/phrases? Could you give some examples?
In Dwarves Deep, on p11, it tells you to refer to the insert or "gatefold" for an example of a runestone written with Dethek runes. There, you can see a complete message written in Dethek runes, and also translated into the Common speech alphabet. If you look closely, the message is just a direct rune-for-letter transliteration, written from left to right, and top to bottom.
So you would just write out your message in Common, and then substitute the corresponding Dethek rune in place of each Common letter. Pretty simple.
According to the runestone example, and also per the instructions on p11:- Capitals are indicated by a horizontal bar over the letter. Use this for beginnings of sentences and names.
- Use spaces to separate words.
- Use no punctuation. Instead, ends of sentences are universally indicated by a vertical line taller than any of the individual runes.
- Names should be painted in red, with the rest either left as uncolored etchings or painted in black.
The runestone shows the message written out in a spiral, with the beginning of the sentence on the outside of the spiral, wrapping to the right, and ending up in the center of the spiral.
Or, alternatively, the message can be written out horizontally, with each sentence on its own line, as with the separate lines of a poem.
Is there something else troubling you?
(BTW, real life keeps me from logging in every single day. It takes some of us a while to find our way back to the 'Keep, sometimes.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 03:53:52
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I assume he was referring to the placement of particular types of words within the sentence. Does the dwarven language place nouns, verbs, and adjectives in the same positions that would be considered proper English, or do dwarves like Yoda talk?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 04:56:56
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I would say the syntax is SVO or SOV. There's not much to go on. But adjectives seem to precede nouns (cf "arauthorord" = great winter, and "aragh dorth" = war hammer), so it is not a head-marking language. That would tend to rule out VSO or VOS.
Dwarven has prepositions, not postpositions which could lean toward SVO rather than SOV.
I am slightly partial to verb final syntax, similar to German. But you could just as easily use English syntax and sub in dwarven words as appropriate.
From the examples given, dwarven has very irregular plurals.
See this link for some extra dwarven vocabulary from Ed: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_040506-05.htm
Search for the word "arauthorord" in the text. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 07:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
P.S. see also this article for a few more dwarven words and sayings from Ed: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20061018a
Trust me, I remember that from when it came out. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 16:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Galuf, I'd say this would be one for Ed.
Alright, so how exactly would I get in touch with him to get this question answered? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
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Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 17:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Galuf, I'd say this would be one for Ed.
Alright, so how exactly would I get in touch with him to get this question answered?
You'll want to post your question in this scroll:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13186
Please be aware, however, that it may take Ed some time to respond... simply because he already has such an extensive backlog of questions to answer. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll have to wait long. It really all depends on when and what Ed can answer at any specific time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 22:50:28
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Per the multiple examples of rune messages in Dwarves Deep, it's SVO.
"This place is Dhurri's Bridge." SVO
"Here 42 of the best warriors of the House of Helmung fell to keep orcs from the Halls."
Adverb-S-prepositional phrase-VO-prepositional phrase
"We slew 608." SVO
"Long sword, sword of light,
Lies beneath me."
Adjective-S, S-prepositional phrase, V-prepositional phrase
I'm not seeing where the confusion lies.
Some of the examples appear to be poems, and in those cases, the language is a bit Yoda-esque. It's kinda broken, rather than being in any discernible order at all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 02:13:24
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English is SVO. The examples in Dwarves Deep are only the English translations of the runestones. The original dwarvish sentence is not given for comparison. If it were, we could try to map the translation to its dwarvish parsing and see how it corresponds. But we have no idea what the original dwarvish syntax would be.
Of course, it may very well turn out that dwarvish has SVO syntax, it's just that we can't say for sure from the data we have. Looking at the data, all we have are single words, no sentences or phrases. There are very few clues as to how the words are put together into sentences. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 01:26:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
English is SVO. The examples in Dwarves Deep are only the English translations of the runestones. The original dwarvish sentence is not given for comparison. If it were, we could try to map the translation to its dwarvish parsing and see how it corresponds. But we have no idea what the original dwarvish syntax would be.
Of course, it may very well turn out that dwarvish has SVO syntax, it's just that we can't say for sure from the data we have. Looking at the data, all we have are single words, no sentences or phrases. There are very few clues as to how the words are put together into sentences.
I'm not sure, but it sounds like you missed the picture of a runestone with Dethek runes in the "gatefold"/insert of Dwarves Deep, entitled "The Runestone". That pic provides more than just a Common/English translation, but a runestone written in actual Dethek runes.
The rune message features SVO syntax.
And the Common/English translations provided are a direct word-for-word transliteration of the runes on the runestone. That is why I said that, per Dwarves Deep, it looks like we only need to write a message out in Common letters, and then substitute the corresponding Dethek runes in their place, with the aforementioned modifications for punctuation/formatting.
Are you intimating that the message enscribed in Dethek runes depicted on the runestone example somehow does not constitute "original dwarvish"? Might that be some sort of "New Dwarvish", as opposed to an "Old Dwarvish" or "Deep Dwarvish"? I know that the text of Dwarves Deep says that Dwarvish can be simulated by using Common, supplemented with occasional distinctive Dwarvish vocabulary (p11). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 05:19:20
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| I have to agree with Gray. We have English translations -- I've never seen anything spelled out in a fictious "language" that was anything more than just another alphabet. And we've had noted discrepancies with artwork in the past, as well. So I don't think the data exists -- in published Realmslore -- to make any kind of judgement on the structure of dwarven linguistics. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 05:22:24
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Which is why I'll doubly recommend asking Ed, again, just to be sure.
Either position is valid, I suppose, and both could easily be supported without any kind of official response from the ol' Bearded One. But given the general tone of Galuf's original request, I'm thinking he'd probably like the official take on things.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 05:48:05
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I am not intimating. I am stating definitively: the runestone is written in English. Yes the drawing of the stone features sentences written in Dethek runes. But the language recorded in Dethek runes is English--not Dwarvish. They have just used Dethek as a letter for letter substitution cypher. No actual dwarvish words are inscribed on that picture of the runestone.
Dwarves of Faerûn do not speak English. Of course the English translation is written with SVO syntax because English has SVO syntax. This is not evidence that Dwarvish has SVO syntax, because syntax is (usually) not preserved when you translate from one language to another. (Unless you are Yoda...)
I wouldn't, however, say that there is no evidence to support SVO syntax. Dwarven seems to have prepositions instead of post-positions, which is strongly indicative (but not definitive) of VO syntax. And it has adjectives that precede the noun (at least from a few given examples of compound words) which would tend to rule out VSO. That leaves SVO. There are exceptions to these linguistic "universals" (for instance Latin has both prepositions and SOV syntax) but SVO syntax would be the most probable deduction assuming that dwarvish follows the human language universals of Earth.
Of course, Dwarvish need not follow human language universals. They aren't exactly human.
For gaming purposes, I agree with you that Dwarvish can be simulated effectively by parsing sentences in English and then swapping out the appropriate words with Dwarvish vocabulary. But real languages don't work like that. Each language has a unique grammar. Dwarvish should too; it should not be a carbon copy of English. There should be many notable differences between the two tongues. But what those differences are is impossible to find out without more data. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 01:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have to agree with Gray. We have English translations[...].
And I have to ask why you agree. Gray wrote several things are simply not true.
"The examples in Dwarves Deep are only the English translations of the runestones."
The book also gives sentences written out in Dethek runes. English does not use Dethek. Thus, the examples are not "only the English translations".
"The original dwarvish sentence is not given for comparison."
How is this known? Upon what source is this statement made?
The examples given show sentences written out in Dethek runes. What are the grounds for concluding that those do not constitute "original dwarvish sentence[s]"?
I have given a published Realms source for what I think constitutes Dwarvish syntax, and even quoted it, and it is available for all.
But no one here has provided a source for concluding--or even suspecting--a different syntax.
"But we have no idea what the original dwarvish syntax would be."
Yes, we do have an idea. I have mentioned several examples in the book that give us exactly such ideas.
What we have no quoted and cited idea of is the notion that Dwarvish has a syntax other than that demonstrated in the book.
"Looking at the data, all we have are single words, no sentences or phrases. There are very few clues as to how the words are put together into sentences."
Again, it is just not true that we have "no sentences or phrases". We are provided multiple "clues as to how the words are put together into sentences" within the book, including complex adjective-subject pairings, complex predicates, and both subjective and objective prepositional phrases.
So, with all of these inaccurate statements, without any sources quoted and cited to back them up, I do not understand why you agree with Gray, Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Either position is valid, I suppose, and both could easily be supported without any kind of official response from the ol' Bearded One.
And I am unsure why you say this, Sage. How is Gray's thesis valid, since he has not provided a published Realms source upon which to ground it, as I have done?
quote:
But given the general tone of Galuf's original request, I'm thinking he'd probably like the official take on things.
What is not already "official" about my multiple quoted references in the cited published Realms work? I do not understand the apparent insistence that the official take that we have already been given must not be trusted, but rather, we must get some other new official take, and only that should be trusted.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I don't think the data exists -- in published Realmslore -- to make any kind of judgement on the structure of dwarven linguistics.
I disagree. As I have made repeated reference to, and which you apparently discount upon some unknown foundation below, multiple sentences exist within the book that are written out in Dethek runes. It is possible that that data may be discredited at some later time, but even then, the data clearly does exist, if for no other reason than to be duly discredited.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I am not intimating. I am stating definitively: the runestone is written in English. Yes the drawing of the stone features sentences written in Dethek runes. But the language recorded in Dethek runes is English--not Dwarvish. They have just used Dethek as a letter for letter substitution cypher.
Upon what grounds do you definitively make this statement? I, myself, already pointed out in my first post that according to the examples given in the book, this is all that was done: to directly transliterate Common into Dethek, and then to make modifications for pronunciation/formatting. But what published Realms source tells you that those statements written out in Dethek, including the one on the runestone, positively are not Dwarvish? You are stating it, yourself, but based on what?
I will point out that the text itself refers to the picture as a "'typical runestone'" (quotes in original; DD, p11; No such quotes are used when labeling the pic on the gatefold insert itself, as it simply called "a typical runestone").
That does not tell us that the picture only looks like a typical runestone, but actually bears English text ciphered into Dethek. Two different times the book tells us that that is a "typical runestone". To me, that indicates that the syntax thereon is also typical.
Why else include text upon the pic at all, if the syntax of that text were not intended to be taken as being just as "typical" as the shape and proportions of the stone upon which it is located?
And the other sentences that are written out in Dethek runes are said to be "several runic inscriptions, from a variety of runestones" (gatefold: "The Runestone"). Thus, even those examples are implicitly described as having come straight off of actual dwarven runestones, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never seen anything spelled out in a fictious "language" that was anything more than just another alphabet.
How do you determine that the multiple sentences written in Dethek runes provided in the book are nothing more than English written in Dethek runes? How do you determine that they are not Dwarvish?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And we've had noted discrepancies with artwork in the past, as well.
But we have not noted any discrepancies with the artwork here.
Rather, multiple statements have been made that we do not have data, when we actually do.
And a few statements have been made indicating that the data are not clear, when they actually are.
It seems that some of you are holding out for some other source, under the suspicions that there is something wrong with this one, but you have not cited a published Realms rationale for such.
Please note that the text actually directs readers' attention to the picture. This work, the text of which was written by Ed himself, tells the reader to consult the picture.
Where is the rationale for suspecting a discrepancy?
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Which is why I'll doubly recommend asking Ed, again, just to be sure.
That's certainly understandable, Sage, but please, if you do so, make sure and point out that that the book already provides a published answer to the main question here, but there are some who choose to dismiss it for some unknown reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
No actual dwarvish words are inscribed on that picture of the runestone.
This is untrue. At least three distinctive Dwarvish words are inscribed there.
The message is about one "Dhurri's" Bridge, per the first sentence. Dhurri is apparently a dwarf name, and as such, is a Dwarvish word, written out in Dethek.
Furthermore, the message likewise refers to "the House of Helmung", which is apparently a reference to another Dwarf name. Significantly, this house is actually referenced by a single icon/pictograph, rather than being spelled out in Dethek.
And the Dwarven author's name, "Nain", is printed in the center of the picture above the shield engraving.
And on the page bearing the primer of the Dethek alphabet, the second example references a certain "Hathos", again written out in Dethek.
Or are these dwarven names, referring to dwarven individuals, and spelled out in Dethek runes, somehow not to be taken as Dwarvish words?
quote:
Dwarves of Faerûn do not speak English.
This isn't exactly true. Clearly, many of them do speak English/Common. That's really just about all that any of us have ever read about them speaking in the recorded history of the Realms of the last century or so.
I do not recall that Bruenor or his dwarves have ever actually referred to their homeland by its Dwarvish name, Himral Uldoun, for example, but rather, solely by its Common/English name "Mithral Hall".
Apparently, some of them spoke some other (dead?) languages once upon a time, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that they don't speak Common now.
quote:
Of course the English translation is written with SVO syntax because English has SVO syntax. This is not evidence that Dwarvish has SVO syntax[...].
No, but the multiple examples written out in Dethek runes are evidence that Dwarvish has SVO syntax.
quote:
Each language has a unique grammar. Dwarvish should too; it should not be a carbon copy of English. There should be many notable differences between the two tongues. But what those differences are is impossible to find out without more data.
I would agree with you that Dwarvish ideally, aesthetically, logically should have a distinctive grammatical syntax. But that subjective projection of our collective desire does not evidence make. (There I go, with the Yoda-speak!)
I also found these bits of information:
quote:
To a dwarf, all runestones bear some sort of message. Most are covered with runic script, the most well-known of which is "Dethek" which translates directly into Common (italics added; FRCS (1E), "Cyclopedia of the Realms": p9).
quote:
To a dwarf, all runestones bear some sort of message. Most are covered with Dethek runic script, which translates directly into dwarvish or common. (italics added; FRCS (2E), "A Grand Tour of the Realms": p26)
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 03:30:33
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Not sure where you are coming from, Beast. If you use the Dethek rune key and translate the runes on the purported rune stone, you will see that the first letter is a T, the second an H, the third an I, the fourth an S. Then there's a space, and the next letter is a P, and so on. It spells out in English "This place is Dhurri's bridge..." etc.
That's not Dwarvish. That's not even Common--unless by some happenstance that common is exactly the same as modern English. But all the sources seem to imply that common isn't anything like English. Authors and designers just use English to stand in for Common because no one has actually created a Common language.
Obviously the quoted text has SVO syntax because it is written in English and English has SVO syntax. But one cannot say based on the English version in what order the words would have been placed. Perhaps the Dwarvish verbs precede their objects, or perhaps they come at the end. We just don't know from what we have been given.
Now, yes, the caption does say "Here is a drawing of a typical runestone:" However, the word "typical" does not mean "actual", it just means "of the type". It seems obvious to me that the picture is intended to give you the feel of what dwarven runestones look like, but it's not an actual runestone. The picture itself is just a composite, an idealized illustration written in English using Dethek runes. We don't even know that Dhurri and Helmung are real dwarven names.
Also, you mention that dwarven names are the same as dwarven words. We can't assume that. Names are preserved down through the ages from prior versions of languages and are even brought in from other unrelated languages.
Take English for example. Sure, you see some kids named "Flower" or "Rainbow" or "Rain." Those are good English words. But our most common names come from other languages--like Christopher which is Greek in origin and means "Christ-bearer". Alex (Alexander) is also Greek. So is Sophia. Jacob, Daniel, Matthew, David, Michael, Ethan, Zachary and Joshua are all Hebrew in origin. Anthony is Latin. Most of our most common names come from other languages.
Names really don't tell you much about a language because they tend to have spellings that are atypical for the language as a whole, often have unusual sound combinations that are not representative of the most common sounds of a language, and are based on roots that are derived from ancient versions of the language or borrowed from other languages altogether.
So when you ask "are these dwarven names, referring to dwarven individuals, and spelled out in Dethek runes, somehow not to be taken as Dwarvish words?" I would say yes, we cannot assume that they are Dwarvish words. The first Nain might have been the slave of a fire giant who led a revolt. His name could be Giantish in origin. Dhurri might be taken from a holy book written in Terran. Helmung might be a peak in the Galena mountain chain that was named by the Nar. We can't be sure that any of the sample names are Dwarvish in origin. They may be good dwarvish words or they may not. But we don't have enough data to say one way or the other.
If you can point to an example of an actual Dwarvish sentence or phrase in actual Dwarvish, we can look at it and see if we can draw any conclusions, but I don't know of any; and what you have cited are English sentences, not any examples of actual Dwarvish. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 03:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Either position is valid, I suppose, and both could easily be supported without any kind of official response from the ol' Bearded One.
And I am unsure why you say this, Sage. How is Gray's thesis valid, since he has not provided a published Realms source upon which to ground it, as I have done?
I meant within the context of one's own campaign. An inventive DM can usually come up with some creative reasoning to support his/her own position regardless of what canon material says.
quote:
quote:
But given the general tone of Galuf's original request, I'm thinking he'd probably like the official take on things.
What is not already "official" about my multiple quoted references in the cited published Realms work? I do not understand the apparent insistence that the official take that we have already been given must not be trusted, but rather, we must get some other new official take, and only that should be trusted.
Again, you're missing the actual intent of my post. I'm merely noting that Ed's take would likely have something further to add -- that hasn't already been referenced in the published sources you've consulted.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Which is why I'll doubly recommend asking Ed, again, just to be sure.
That's certainly understandable, Sage, but please, if you do so, make sure and point out that that the book already provides a published answer to the main question here, but there are some who choose to dismiss it for some unknown reason.
Well, I'll note that I wasn't intentionally dismissing your efforts. Merely, I was advocating an effort to seek further input from Ed... since we all know he has multitudes of unpublished lore on a variety of subjects. And I suspect the dwarven language would likely be one of them. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 05:26:02
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| My main thing is this: no language translates exactly into another. And many languages have alphabets that use more or less than the 26 letters used in the English alphabet. So I can't see that substituting English letters for runes means we're reading another language. I once made up my own runic alphabet, and I did the same thing with it that we've seen with these examples of phrases spelled out in "dwarven": I swapped letters, and didn't change anything else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Dwarves of Faerûn do not speak English
Correct, they speak scottish |
z455t |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 03:35:21
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I must admit that mine does. When I play my dwarf Bellok I enjoy greatly expressing myself in a thick Scottish Brogue. Have no idea which particular region of Scotland his accent hails from; it's probably somewhere between Billy Connolly and Mel Gibson's Braveheart.  |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 03:47:26
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| I do a very thick Scottish voice for my Dwarf. It's fun for those at the table and I enjoy it as well :) |
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Shadowaxe
Acolyte
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 14:45:46
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Great looking avatar you have there Matt!
It’s funny just how many of us use Scottish for our bearded alternate personas! However, on a very recent trip to the Highlands and Orkney, everyone I bumped into seemed to have a Yorkshire accent! (including the dry chap who drove us to Cape Wrath) maybe I should therefore introduce Broad Yorkshire as the accent for Clan Shadowaxe?
Cheers.
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Mead, mead, from the honey bee,
How I long to drink thee. |
Edited by - Shadowaxe on 07 Oct 2010 20:03:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:19:46
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This is odd, because I am looking to name something in Dwarvish and actually came upon a recent scroll! I wasn't even looking specifically for CK - I was just Googling around.
I, too, have been looking in Dwarves Deep without getting very far. I found a Neverwinter Nights Dwarven language dictionary, but it appears not to be related to Ed's Dwarvish in anyway (which is a damn shame, if that's what they used in the game).
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain. 
EDIT: And in the past, I have used Scottish, Russian, and German accents for Dwarves from different regions. I was going to try Irish, but then they wind-up sounding too much like Leprecauns ("and someone is always after me Lucky Charms!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 01:31:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain.
Knowing Ed, he prolly has enough notes on dwarven vocabulary to fill another tome the size of Dwarves Deep. I'm more inclined to think that "mountain" was a victim of word count and/or editting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2010 03:23:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 04:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain.
Knowing Ed, he prolly has enough notes on dwarven vocabulary to fill another tome the size of Dwarves Deep. I'm more inclined to think that "mountain" was a victim of word count and/or editting.
That would be my reading as well.
Markus, you might want to ask Ed in his scroll. Maybe he can share some further insight on this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:04:40
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I sort-of found what I needed by rummaging through some old scrolls here, but not exactly what I was looking for.
I will continue my research (since I enjoy it anyway) - I have a feeling sooner or later I will come across something in Dwarven with the word 'Mountain' in it (I'd be VERY surprised not to). Its a lot of fun reading through all these old 1e/2e products.
And if nothing turns up by the time I release my newest map, I'll ask Ed. I still have some time yet. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 07:05:00 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:09:11
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That Never Winter Nights Dwarven Language page looks like some strange mish-mash of Frisian or Old English mixed with Tolkien's Dwarven tongue, Khuzdûl. Words like stroll (walk), abb (have), tanzen (dance), mi (me), corn (korn), twa (two), etc. are obvious English cognates.
Words like khuzd, rukh, burk, and shath are direct Tolkien rip-offs of the words for dwarf, orc, axe and cloud.
Looks like someone just stole Tolkien's dwarven tongue and filled out the missing parts with thinly disguised Old English (or Frisian maybe).
Ed's dwarven tongue bears no relation to Earth languages or the tongues that Tolkien created.
What feels really weird about the Neverwinter Nights webpage is that Tolkien created a triconsonantal root system for his Khuzdûl; his language had a grammar closer to semitic style tongues. But this webpage has grafted his vocabulary onto a Germanic style language. It's all very amateurish.
I guess I can give them a point for trying to cobble together some kind of dwarven language. I could probably even forgive their shoddy conlanging. It's fine for homebrew. But their wholesale plagiarism of Tolkien and posting it to a website is a faux pas of Griggsian proportion. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 19:11:08
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I have a word that may prove useful, but I'm going to need Gray's better understanding of Ed's Dwarvish for this -
Vallahir = 'Mountain Valley'
At first I thought that means 'Valla' could mean 'Mountain', but not only don't I think it works like English, I also think 'Valla' is a far better word for 'valley' or 'Vale' (considering that many common words are derived from dwarvish). That being the case, then 'hir' should mean 'mountain'. The direct translation would be "Vale of the Mountain".
Unless of course that word is completely independent of its definition (instead of it being two words, the dwarves could easily have a separate word for something so directly related to them).
I really should ask Ed, but I know how busy he is, and this is a lot more fun.
I thought 'cairn' could be it (as in 'Kelvin's Cairn'), but after a tiny bit of thought I ruled it out. I also think it should be phonetically related to their word for 'home' (faern), but that's just personal preference. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2010 19:12:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 18:51:33
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I may have to go to Ed - I now need a word for 'North'. 
Who knew making a map-conversion would require so much lore...... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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On Dwarven language sentence structure
