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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 00:19:24
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Well, Phlan seems to have quite a few things that are special about it.
I was re-reading the Ruins of Adventure and realized that THE WILD HUNT has something to do with Phlan! No lie...it is there.
Page 91, "14)" says:
quote:
The Wild Hunt! The sound of dogs baying can be heard in the distance and then the "wild hunt" sweeps over the party. All those that make their magical saving throws aren't affected, but those that don't are forced to join the haunting "wild hunt"! The hunt will take those failing party members to some random area of the town or wilderness. It is possible for the nonaffected members to come along if they so desire. No one knows what brings the wild hunt, but the only sure way to avoid it is to be behind doors when the haunting comes. If the party is inside they hear the dogs, but aren't forced to make a saving throw.
This just more deeply roots my theory that the Celtic Pantheon may very well have originated in the Forgotten Realms...of course realizing that the FR are fantasy mind you!
It just sits well with my thoughts thus far about the area about the Moonsea (particularly north of it) being the home of a people who once had a high degree of civilization and worshiped Faerie/Celtic beings.
At least that is how it is playing out for my own mind...
What thoughts from everyone else?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 00:38:14
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The Wild hunt is present in the Moonshaes and in Nimbral - could all be throwbacks to the original pre-Tethen (Talfir) people of the central heartlands region.
I had some history worked-out for Thaeravel, and this might work with it. The Netherease didn't just conquer them, they incorporated much of their knowledge and culture into their own.
If the Nibralese were the last remnants of the Thaeravel people, who were a 'lower class' within Netherease society, it would make some sense that they would desire to form their own nation away from Halruaa, some time after the Netherease diaspora.
Hmmmm... this is working out... I was wondering how to connect Thaeravel to the Cloud Kingdom... if they had a history of riding flying mounts... hmmmmm... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Sep 2010 00:38:45 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 04:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... this is working out... I was wondering how to connect Thaeravel to the Cloud Kingdom... if they had a history of riding flying mounts... hmmmmm...
This jogged something in my memory and I've been googling up storm trying to find it. I remember an intelligent flying horse, Realmsian I think. I can recall very little of it though. It lacked wings, but it could fly anyway. It was good aligned, and I want to think it was introduced in Dragon.
Anyone else remember this? |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 04:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you talking about asperii?
That's the one. Would you believe I finally tracked it down using TV Tropes website? Of course I only found the 3.5 edition MMII reference. Anyone remember where it first saw print? |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 05:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you talking about asperii?
That's the one. Would you believe I finally tracked it down using TV Tropes website? Of course I only found the 3.5 edition MMII reference. Anyone remember where it first saw print?
It was something previously discussed here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9578
I include that thread because there's a fair bit of info about them in there.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 12:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the Nibralese were the last remnants of the Thaeravel people, who were a 'lower class' within Netherease society, it would make some sense that they would desire to form their own nation away from Halruaa, some time after the Netherease diaspora.
nice idea
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 16:05:30
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Thanks.
It actually works with very little 'lore adjustment'.
Modern scholars are correct about there being a high' and 'low' Netheril, but they don't fully understand all the implications of that. Low-Netheril was originally a term for those people living in the southern portion of the Empire - the rural remnants of the Thaeravel people.
Once the Netherease developed their Mythalars and flying city magitech, most of the 'true Netherease' (those of Gur blood) went to live in the Skycities, while the more 'rustic' elements of their society - like the Thaeravelites and any indigenous Anghardt - stayed below and literally became the 'low Netherease'. It wasn't just a geographic and altitudinal quantifier, it was also an insult. A person of 'low netherease' birth would have to work very hard t be accpted by the High netherease, and very few would have been allowed to live in the flying enclaves (although, for labor-intensive projects, many could have been brought 'top-side' temporarily - I'm picturing ghettos that looked more like walled-camps).
Mind you, every enclave was ruled by individual Archmages, and the laws and moires governing each would have been quite different. This would be a very generalized take on them, with extremes going far into both ends (I could even possibly see a mostly-Thaeravelite enclave, consisting of a Talfir-blooded Archmage who 'made good').
If you really wanted to run with this, you could even assume the 'underground railroad' that helped free Gnomish slaves could have been started by the Thaeravelites, with Dwarven and Elvish help (considering the Low-Netherease would be the most-likely to deal with 'groundlings').
Puts a bit of a darker spin on the Netherease, but I think WotC is going in that direction anyway the involvement of Shar with certain things, added at the tail-end of 3e. And like I said, the worst of this situation would only be apparent in a scant few enclaves - I am sure many of them were much more free-thinking (but 'liberal' to the point of thinking of the Talfir/Pozi elements of their society as "the poor Low Netherease", as if they were something to be pitied). Even the best of Netheril had extreme hubris.
Just some ideas I'm tossing out there - nothing canon (but nothing violating canon, either) - make of them what you will. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Sep 2010 18:30:49 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 17:53:25
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Anything from anyone about Phlan? Any interesting tidbits?
Any thoughts on who founded Phlan, odd fact or such? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 18:38:05
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I know this sounds REALLY silly, buuuuuut...
'Phlan' always reminds me of 'Flan', which is funny, but then I think about what that is - a creamy, pudding-like product - and I think about the Seven Lost Gods and Moander (who had a temple in the Moonsea region), and realize that at least a few of them had Ooze connections.
So, I got the idea stuck in my head - however ridiculous it may be - that most of the Pudding and Gelatinous creatures of the Realms got their start in Phlan. Some ancient buried temple or some-such, perhaps even central to some long-forgotten city lying deep beneath Phlan's many layers (IIRC, the city has been rebuilt several times, on top of the ruins of older settlements).
Crazy, I know.....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2010 02:33:47 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 19:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Low-Netheril was originally a term for those people living in the southern portion of the Empire - the rural remnants of the Thaeravel people.
what about the Seventon area, that was far north
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once the Netherease developed their Mythalars and flying city magitech, most of the 'true Netherease' (those of Gur blood)
why Gur blood, I can't picture the Netherese as gypsies
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(although, for labor-intensive projects, many could have been brought 'top-side' temporarily - I'm picturing ghettos that looked more like walled-camps) ... Talfir/Pozi elements of their society as ... make of them what you will.
I imagine Netheril more open, but I really like the link to Nimbral, imagine Leira and Mask come up from places such as Thiefsward, Leira related to the people that arrived from the north (Ruathlek).
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Anything from anyone about Phlan? odd fact or such?
Ok, to be on topic  I don't know much about Phlan other than the basics. Possibly it was founded by the Netherese/Hlondathan people from Teshar, maybe arcanists from the Sorcerer's Isle needed them.
Odd fact, Sokol means ''hawk'' and the ''Valjevo'' name is based on a real world place in Serbia. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 19:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know this sounds REALLY silly, buuuuuut...
'Phlan' always reminds me of 'Flan', which is funny, but then I think about what that is - a creamy, pudding-like product - and I think about the Seven Lost Gods and Moander (who had a temple in the Moonsea region), and realize that at least a few of them had Ooze connections.
So, I got the idea stuck in my head - however ridiculous it may be - that most of the Pudding and Gelatinous creatures of the Realms got their start in Phlan. Some ancient buried temple or some-such, perhaps even central to some long-forgotten city lying deep beneath Phlan's many layers (IIRC, the city has been rebuilt several times, on top of the tuins of older settlements).
Crazy, I know.....
Not at all! I'm actually thinking of running "The Lost City" module in the area for my kids!
However, my thought on Flan would be from Greyhawk...if I see that word, that is what comes to mind immediately. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 02:49:31
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I think Greyhawk as well.
Why Gur? Because somewhere, either in a 1e supplement or the 2e netheril boxed set it specifically states that the Netherese were of Gur decent. not near any of my sources ATM, but next time I get home i will research that bit and find it.
Netherease encountered the Anghardt, and IIRC, later joined with some of them and formed the Renhardt, but they were NOT of those people, nor of the Teshen/Talfir blooded people further south.
Seventon was way up in the north, so it stands to reason that the Gur migrated across the north, above the Moonsea, and into the then-fertile Anauroch basin. And if you look at some of the boxed-set art, even though they were a nation of arcanists, they dressed rather... barbarically. In my mind, they fit the same niche as 'space Vikings' do in sciFi - A race who's 'technology' somehow managed to far-surpass their culture (probably as a direct result of their interaction with the Nether Scrolls - their society could not mature in-time with their magic).
As for Seventon being 'Low Netheril', that would have happened later, after the flying cities were created. My premise is that originally the term referred to the 'lesser folk' living to the south ('low' having both connotations). Later, when most of the well-to-do moved to the sky, anyone left behind - including folk of 'pure' Netherease stock - would be referred to as 'low Netherease'.
So that the low Netherease took the place of serfs in a feudal society - they did all the manual labor, and were beholden to a lord (enclave) for protection. If you think about it, the majority of Netherease probably lived outside of the enclaves, which means outside of the Mythalars, which provided them with most of their magic. They had it just as tough, if not tougher, then anyone living in The North today. Unlike Halruaa, in Netheril magic was for 'the elite'.
At least, that's the vibe I get from what few Netherease we have read about. Those without 'the gift' were looked down upon, no matter who or what they were.
Dwarves, strangely, seem to be the only exception, which leads me to believe that the dwarves must have been useful to the Netherease. I think many of the Netherease mines may have been dug and worked (or at least, over-seered) by dwarves.
Or it could be as simple as that they knew the dwarves were no threat - they could NOT read the Nether Scrolls, so they could trust them. How the Netherease could have known that, though, is beyond me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2010 02:56:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 16:54:55
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What products deal with Phlan?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 17:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What products deal with Phlan?
Well, there was a now legendary web enhancement to Mysteries of the Moonsea... 
It's right next to Jimmy Hoffa's body. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 17:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What products deal with Phlan?
SSI interactive games, Pool of Radiance, etc. If you can find them you need a slow computer in order to play them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 17:32:29
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Valjevo castle is incredibly expansive, it's inner courtyard able to sustain a group of druids that love big pets. Perhaps this castle's founder Milsor the Valjevo, might give clues of Phlan early history. The Valjevo clan was never detailed though.
The city is well known for having haunted areas, where spirits of Old Phlan moan about their fates. In my campaign I made the city decidedly tolerant of the religions, just to help combat the many ghosts with the aid of various clerical orders. So most faerunian faiths have a tended shrine to their gods in the temple ward, which is dominated by the temple of Tyr, the Waiting. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 15:55:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What products deal with Phlan?
SSI interactive games, Pool of Radiance, etc. If you can find them you need a slow computer in order to play them.
Ruins of Adventure
The Moonsea AD&D 2nd edition.
And the Pool of Radiance 'Adventurers Journal' contained a written history about Phlan and the Moonsea area by Jeff Grubb. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 12 Feb 2013 15:59:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2013 : 15:54:33
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Thanks guys.
It was actually Ruins of Adventure I was looking for. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2013 : 22:56:51
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| Phlan and Hillsfar are two of my favorite Realms cities, only because they were my first taste of the Realms through the "old gold box" games. Reading about them and seeing artwork about them brings me back to happy childhood times. I like the idea of Phlan as a semi-civilized city with slums and a big bad evil on all sides. And Hillsfar is a great (and rare) example of a neutral city state in the Heartlands (at war with the evil Zhentil Keep but no friend of the Dales or elves). |
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Phlan
