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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 18:20:32
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Just recently I watched a history program that dealt with the mineral 'salt' in Europe during the middle ages. Apparently salt was very important during that age - esp. for conservation of food, why it was referred to as 'white gold'.
I wondered how important the minarel is in the Realms. According to Aurora's Realms Catalog the ounce of salt is sold for 1 cp. This (IMO surprisingly low) price lets me believe that salt is a resource readily available in Faerun.
Which leads me to the next question: where is salt produced in the Realms?
Thanks for your replies,
Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 20:11:49
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I know Kara-Tur has an abundance of the stuff - they even have a creature known as a Salt Lich. I doubt that the majority of it could be imported from that far away, considering the low price (although a great many spices ARE imported from the east).
Aside from Azulduth, I can't think of any place in particular off-hand that might produce salt. The subterranean nature of FR's Underdark may account for its cheaper price (availability may be much greater because of that). The existence of the Sea-races may also play a part. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2010 20:15:32 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
709 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 20:29:11
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Let's not forget: Salt may not be very important everywhere with spells that preserve or create food, at least in 3.X edition, such as Create Food and Water (3.5 Ed. PHB pgs. 214-215), Heroes Feast (3.5 Ed. PHB pg. 240), and Purify Food and Drink (3.5 Ed. PHB pg. 267).
Granted, not anyone could have access to said spells, but for all you know, clerics and druids could probably make use if these if under the employ - or in alliance with - local authorities, especially in times of famine. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
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Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 22:52:22
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The food requirements in D&D is less then that of as Europe during the middle ages. The Realms has some appearances that are the same, however there are many differences.
As already indicated there is magic, there also exist herbs in the Realms that do not exist on Earth. Some of these certainly could be used in place of salt. There also can be cultural differences that tend of have people prefer other ways to preserve food. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 23:05:59
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Very interesting your thoughts. I thought about magics myself but than again i figured that most mages and clerics are not freely using their powers to aid the common folk without something in reward. However, for food, supplies and other neccessities (esp. worship in case of the churches) I see them working minor spells to make food last longer for a local village or some such. I doubt that they would use more powerful spells such as Create food and water or even Heroes feast unless in major crisis (and even than under political pressure only, as in Selgaunt during the Sembian Civil War as we could read in Twilight War trilogy).
But does this work for larger cities as well e.g. Suzail, Silverymoon and/or Waterdeep?
And what about places where the people tend to be less friendly with eachs other such as the Moonsea area or Calimport? I'd figure in such areas the common folk needs to rely on non-magical methods to preserve food.
I did not think about realms-specific herbs though, until now... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 21 Sep 2010 23:15:05 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 23:44:07
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| Ed has spoken on this subject in his scroll: Last year, if I recall correctly. He said something to the effect that salt wasn't the hard-to-find commodity in the Realms that it was in the RW. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 03:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know Kara-Tur has an abundance of the stuff - they even have a creature known as a Salt Lich.
Sorry, that was too funny after a long day at work  is there really a salt lick I mean Lich? |
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EltonJ
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 15:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know Kara-Tur has an abundance of the stuff - they even have a creature known as a Salt Lich.
Sorry, that was too funny after a long day at work is there really a salt lick I mean Lich?
yes.
Although, I find ice mummies to be more otherworldly. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 21:45:10
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I am not near sources, but I remember after a little research I found a similar creature in a core source - some sort of Lich in Sandstorm, that would work for the one found in kara-Tur. The creature dwells at the center of vast salt-flats, so anything having to do with 'the wastes' is applicable, IMHO. Not sure if it is a unique creature, but anything that can be made with magic can be duplicated.
I know of at least two 'Ice Liches', which sort-of proves that point. If there is one, there may be others.
As for the original topic, I vaguely recall an herb that helps preserve meat, IIRC, and it may have been in one of the EE booklets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2010 21:50:33 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Ed has spoken on this subject in his scroll: Last year, if I recall correctly. He said something to the effect that salt wasn't the hard-to-find commodity in the Realms that it was in the RW.
This material then appeared in Power of Faerūn p. 69. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:55:52
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Anauroch exports salt, 30 gp a camel-slab, I think it's from the Shoal of Thirst and from the mines of the Sword, also Raurin (unexploited), Chondath (exports) and kuo-toa below Tethyr
merchants of Prespur have a spice similar to salt, preserves food even longer, tastes bad tough, and there's a packer guild in Waterdeep
and I remember Archendale sowed Sessrendale's fields with salt
in Kara-Tur there was a wizard of salt-zombies
nishruus and ankhegs don't like salt
there are a lot of spells that require saltpeter |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
709 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 04:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
there are a lot of spells that require saltpeter
Saltpeter? I thought we were only talking about salt. Besides, I have yet to hear of saltpeter in itself existing in the realms. I'm not quite sure what exactly goes into smokepowder (the Realms equivalents of gundpowder), so what saltpeter has to do with anything, that's beyond me. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
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Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 05:03:50
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Magic!!!  |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 10:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
there are a lot of spells that require saltpeter
Saltpeter? I thought we were only talking about salt. Besides, I have yet to hear of saltpeter in itself existing in the realms. I'm not quite sure what exactly goes into smokepowder (the Realms equivalents of gundpowder), so what saltpeter has to do with anything, that's beyond me.
It also used for food preservation. Salts are not just NaCl. Ingredients of the smokepowder are secret, I don't know, but there is saltpeter for sure, just look into some spell material components. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 16:46:19
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According to the map of Trade Routes and Resources on pp. 88-89 of the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook, salt is produced/mined in Samarach, Turmish, Sespech, and Chondath.
That's a pretty cool map, as it has little icons for a large variety of commodities and indicates with arrows who trades with who and where commodities are traded to. Goods like gold, cheese, wine, ale, cloth, olive oil, ivory, slaves, pearls, ambergris, grains, and many, many others are all listed.
It probably is not meant to be comprehensive, I am sure there are more sources of salt (and other goods) than are listed on the map, but it may give you an idea where the major sources are, or what areas are famous for what. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 18:54:10
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Great find, Gray - I always forget about that map. 
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
It also used for food preservation. Salts are not just NaCl. Ingredients of the smokepowder are secret, I don't know, but there is saltpeter for sure, just look into some spell material components.
In the Watercourse Trilogy, we find the ingredients of Smokepowder are sulphur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate (Saltpeter). 
Which is why I theorized in two separate threads - here and at WotC - that Smokepowder and Black Powder are chemically identical, and the only difference is that Smokepowder is magicaly enchanted with a Gondian spell that 'bypasses' Ao's restrictions on tech.
The two are interchangeable within the SpellJammer rules - you can use both in the same weapon - the only difference being which sphere you are within as to which will function properly. No modifications to the weapons are necessary, further proving there really is no difference between the two other then the enchantment.
Neither works within Greyspace, IIRC, which makes me think that Oerthian Sages simply haven't figured-out the world-specific bypass magic (everything has a 'key', according to Planescape, which allows you to break the rules - you just have to find the right one).
Magic Spells themselves are specific keys to bend the laws of physics and reality, so it makes sense that spells are keys, and one is required to circumvent Ao's ban.
Anyhow, thats my take - they make Gunpowder and simply enchant it. Kara-Turrans have figured-out how to mass-produce it; they use normal labor to mix the ingredients and then bring in a magic-user to mass-enchant the stuff (thereby saving a lot of time for the enchanters, who have better things to do then spend half their life mixing compounds).
The Lantanese do not let out the 'secret' of its making, so do not risk allowing 'normal folks' to learn the formula. This is why it is much rarer and more costly within Faerūn then K-T; only Gond's prieshood and a few select others (like that Mary Sue in Watercourse) can manufacture the stuff.
The Thayans, BTW, have created a liquid chemical (Alchemical) equivalent that can be made with Arcane magic, but they are also not releasing its secrets. Although used in some of its earlier-model bombards, it has never been used in smaller arms, AFAIK. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Sep 2010 19:03:16 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 20:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the Watercourse Trilogy, we find the ingredients of Smokepowder are sulphur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate (Saltpeter).
Really, it's suppose to be secret. I've read that trilogy, but it's very forgettable. It's when that Ayn Randian character blows up the canal?
Ao and its rules are nonsense. Why would Red Wizards want gunpowder when they have those blast globes. In a high magic alternate 14th century Earth gunpowder would not break the balance. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 02:15:59
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I have not read that trilogy - I was warned NOT to read it by 3 different people I trust and respect (you may have been one of them - its been awhile), and at some point someone actually quoted a passage from the book with the ingredients.
However, that is hearsay, since I actually didn't see the passage myself, but the others involved in the discussion (several of which had the books) did not object to the reference, so I take it as truth until proven otherwise.
I was also told that it was borderline plagiarism with some other work, which I am also unfamiliar with and can offer no opinion there.
I am now thinking that the 'Ban Dampening' spell would work better as a time-consuming ritual, and would also be of a sliding-scale nature.
Meaning that cast at different levels (by higher level priests), one can dampen the effects of the ban ranging from steam-tech (not sure if that is allowed) on up to gunpowder and then electricity (Steamtech) and perhaps even up to advanced stuff like micro-circuitry and atomics.
So, the example I gave in another thread of the Enterprise getting stuck in Realmspace may have a simple solution: it would have required a HIGH-level Gondsman to cast the Ban Dampener spell on the Warp Engines.
Then again, Capt. Kirk may have stuck around for awhile just for the Orc Women - he has a thing for green chicks. If it was Picard's Enterprise, he may have been taken for a Red Wizard. 
EDIT Another theory I have is that the rules of Realmspace are directly tied to the Weave, including the ban and the now-defunct Godwall. This means that the 'spell' that dampens the effect of the ban may actually be a small, self-contained magic-dead zone. This means that tech may function normally within one of those zones, which would be kinda interesting from a world/campaign perspective; certain industries would flourish within them.
Or, if you wanted to have even more fun with it, you could say that Gond made a deal with Shar (he seems the type - read Prince of Lies), and the dweomer used on the Smokepowder is shadow-magic, which creates a field that blocks the weave (and the rules that govern it and Realmspace).
Which comes full-circle and actually makes some sense, given that in 3e we find-out that the Mulan gods really traveled through the Shadowfel (not Arcane Space) to reach Toril... which means that the godwall was NOT able to block anything coming from that plane. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2010 02:31:52 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 11:39:42
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The Weave is a much better option than Ao. I've got no problems with the sci-fi elements being introduced, as long as they blend in and don't appear robotic and overly mechanical (e.g. the warforged in Eberron and Numeria in Golarion ruin it).
The Watercourse is the Fountainhead in the Realms. Personally I like when real world elements are introduced (except the Zhent Headless Horsemen). That's the only positive aspect that I remember, it tried to be different, and the Red Wizard villain wasn't bad, up until the end.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then again, Capt. Kirk may have stuck around for awhile just for the Orc Women - he has a thing for green chicks
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 08:01:50
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Salt's value goes up as distance from the ocean goes up. After all, it's not exactly complicated to extract it from salt water.
With the northern growing season being short (and thus preserving food being so important), there is probably massive demand for salt along the shores of the freshwater Moonsea. Maybe the cities have ample mines, of course. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 13:02:47
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| when the glacier retreated, the salt remained in the Moonsea, which causes crop failure |
z455t |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 13:12:47
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??
The Moonsea is a freshwater lake, like the American Great Lakes. It's not salty. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 13:20:45
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| right, the Great Salt Lake. lol. The world's largest salt mine is under lake Huron. |
z455t |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 09:40:59
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It makes me wonder if salt is mined and traded by Dwarves.
In RW, ancient Egyptians and Romans sent criminals and slaves to the salt mines, conditions very harsh, life expectancy very short. I'm not sure what conditions were like in medieval ages.
The salt lich is amusing. You can google salt mummy, digusting but plausible. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Oct 2010 09:42:41 |
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Salt in the Realms
