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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 19:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
That's what its all about. Having fun.
What the hell do you think this is?
Some kind of game? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 15:17:56
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So I let my friend preview the Executioner (Essential Assassin) and he said he loved it. He liked it so much that he re-worked his current Assassin character in our campaign to fit the role and build of the newer assassin.
A couple of things that he feels is better with the Newer assassin is that it doesn't play like a "shadow" mage with some sneakiness. The older assassin's powers relied primarly on shadow effects and less on weapons/poison. Now, the Executioner prides itself on being an excellent poisoner and creating so many poisons per day.
On top of that, they gain Utility powers that help them hide better, slow their fall so they take less damage, and other "helpful" abiities that are more rogue-ish than magical/shadow.
In addition to the poison abilities, they deal lots more damage with the attacks (gaining a +1d6 on all melee weapon attacks) and their at-will powers are very unique. A few of them don't actually do any damage but they have effects like pulling people around the battlefield, attacks that trip opponents, attacks that make opponents Helpless, ones that choke out opponents when your hidden from them...very interesting.
And from he said, it feels alot more like the older 3.5 version where you gain class features at additional levels instead of power after power. From his own perspective, it's as if they blended the best parts of 4E (balance, power/spells, and mechanics) with the progression and "feel" of 3.5.
Due to lack of funs (and my wife's stern warning, lol) I'm not going to be able to purchase the Heroe's of the Fallen Lands book until, hopefully, the first week of October. When I get the book, I'll try to delve deeper into how these classes work in relation to the over-all scheme of 4E and how well they relate to the older 3.5 edition. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 14:15:19
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Heres something I found over on the 4E Character Optimization boards:
quote:
Originally posted by Wotc_Josh
Thieves don't get any at-will powers directly from their build, but nothing prevents them from having them. You can take the human extra at-will and a Dark Sun theme and have an at-will and an encounter power, like this particular version does.
So this means that humans that gain an extra at-will power can choose a power from their Parent Class or half-elves who gain their Racial Dilettante power can select from non-Essential powers. This is really important in terms of proving, more so, that 4E and 4e-Essentials are one in the same. Sure, theres a small division in Character creation but they're supposed to work in tandum. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 03:54:43
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Sooooo......
Just bought the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book and boy...I'm pretty stunned.
1.) It's soft-cover. This does pose a bit of a problem mainly because many of my books take a beating. I guess I'll just have to be very, very gentle with this one.
2.) 350+ pages of flavor, class "crunch", racial options, feats, skill usages, and magic itmes. Not ONCE does this book mention that anything from previous sources cannot be used. Though it doesn't give much mention to them at all, just says "in the Essentials blah blah" meaning that when your using JUST essentials this is how it is.
3.) Rogue and Fighter not getting At-will powers. Good and bad IMO. First the good: It keeps it simple (or KISS) and makes thing much easer when thinking about what your gonna do in a round. Next, leaves out the possibility of spamming previous at-will from those classes. Now Bad: It's sorta boring for veterians of 4E. Making melee basic attacks each turn doens't "feel" epic and re-hashes some of the old crap from the 3.5 days. (swing, hit, swing, hit, swing, miss, swing, miss, etc....) But now I see what they were saying above as to how a Knight can have an At-Will (humans gain an extra at-will and thus mix things up a bit).
4.) Schools of Magic for wizards AND they get Magic Missile for free (as great a spell that is... )
5.) Tier-less feats. Meaning that feats NO LONGER have a level prerequisite. Prior to Essentials, there were feats like HBO (Heavy Blade Opportunity) that could only be taken at 11th level or higher (and have a DEX 15). Now, feats scale with level so there are no level requirements. This is a good step in the right direction.
6.) The size, it's just weird. Not the standard norm of a D&D book (at least 4E books were the same height as 3.5 ones). Now, it's designed to look like a novel. I almost missed it on the shelf.
7.) Some minor "up-dates" to Races. Each race will now have "flex stats", something that was common with the PHB-3. Eladrin now gain +2 INT; +2 DEX or +2 CHA. Dwarves gain +2 CON; +2 STR or +2 WIS. Elves +2 DEX; +2 WIS or +2 INT which makes elves prime canidates for Wizards now. Halflings +2 DEX; +2 CON or +2 CHA (couple of great build ideas for this one...)
8.) Compatibility with previous material. Here's the grand piece that will need some further developing. Yes, as any class presented in this book, you have the option to use previous material from other D&D/DDI sources (it says so specifically in this book), but you may not want to. The Paragon Paths designed in this are geard towards these classes, so you might be under-cutting your character for flavor instead of effectivness or power. To some, this is a huge NO-NO, to others....as long as they can get their character "right", who cares about mechanics when it's all just for fun? Personally, I love a balance between the two. I want to have a flavorful character who rocks in game/combat. The Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies presented name what is a Paragon Feature so if you want to take something else, you can swap that out for what you normally would get, and I think this is the main nail in the coffin that this isn't 4.5.
Fielding questions now....... |
Edited by - Diffan on 25 Sep 2010 03:55:27 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 04:03:30
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I suppose that my main concern would be the lore content. What's it like?
I'm not considering buying this book for the rules or mechanics presented. But I am intrigued by the whole "Fallen Lands" concept, and I'm interested in learning whether there is any pertinent lore which supports that focus for the book.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 05:01:02
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| I understand that Essentials is perfectly compatible with 4e...so are the Essentials books much like the Skills and Powers of 2e fame? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 12:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I suppose that my main concern would be the lore content. What's it like?
I'm not considering buying this book for the rules or mechanics presented. But I am intrigued by the whole "Fallen Lands" concept, and I'm interested in learning whether there is any pertinent lore which supports that focus for the book.
Sadly theres little (if any) lore in this book. Why they called it
"Fallen Lands" is beyond me because it doesn't say what lands might have fallen or why or what that concept even pertains to. Sorry man, but this books is heavily dedicated to crunch and mechanics.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I understand that Essentials is perfectly compatible with 4e...so are the Essentials books much like the Skills and Powers of 2e fame?
Having missed most of 2e days, I'm not really sure if I can make the comparsion. Yes, the essentials line and pre-essentials books are compatible in that classes have similar balance and can work together. Though Multiclassing/Hybrid classes of pre-essentials and essential classes can't be done (yet). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 20:07:09
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@lore question: Yeah, not really lore--this is a mechanics book, albeit with lots of flavor (i.e. what powers look like, why you use them, how you might have them, etc).
Fighters and Thieves *do* have at-will powers--they're just not at-will *attack* powers. They're stance and movement-type powers that *modify* basic attacks. Which, when you consider how many times you make basic attacks without being allowed to use an at-will attack power (for instance, on a charge, or as an opportunity attack), is really quite cool. (I mean, it saves you the contortions of taking feats that allow you to use one or more at-will attack powers as basic attacks.) Thieves have a very 3e-ish weapon finesse power, so that all their basic attacks use DEX, instead of STR.
Really, it's more in keeping with old-school D&D. So if you really like 4e, it just provides new options, but if you don't really like 4e or aren't convinced by the power structure, you should check this out, as it might be more like what you're used to.
@Skills and Powers: Kinda? Some of the essentials stuff helps core 4e classes, some of it is better or solely useful for Essentials classes. I can't help thinking it might be more like Unearthed Arcana--at least conceptually.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 20:30:29
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| Erik brings up some good points. I should've been more...accurate. Yes, class such as the Rogue and Fighter DO receive at-will "powers", they're just not attacks like the ones we've been seeing in previous sources. And they highlight a character's MBA/RBA (melee/ranged basic attack). I just question the balance when you compare what a Knight-fighter recives at say....9th level and a regular fighter at 9th level. If the ability isn't on-par with a Daily power of the same level then we've got issues (major issues) with balance and adaptability. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 21:33:34
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I am NOT trying to sound sarcastic when I say this...but I am a bit confused at why 4e was supposed to be "simpler" and now I'm honestly confused at how to mesh things.
I'm glad you started this thread Diffan. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 01:20:28
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I'm glad I started this thread too, Dalor. Alot of people have questions on 4E in general and the Essentials in particular and if people can't get those answers, they get discouraged with the system and just shrug it off as being crap. Though I don't know who told you it was easier or "simpler" to be honest, lol. I've found 4E just as in depth with the important aspect as 3/3.5 just some of the mechaics are easier (like Grab, Escaping Grabs, Saving Throws, etc..).
Meshing things has always been 4E less-than optimized area. They created roles for a reason, and making characters (and rules) that break that mold well....don't exactly work as well as 3.5E.
Also, it's a LOT easier to explain when I have the power/spell/prayer on hand and available to show you lol. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 02:07:17
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| My thanks to both Diffan and Erik. I'm still considering whether to purchase this book, or not. As I said previously, I'm content to continue using my own rules-system, so the mechanics-aspect of the book is largely irrelevant for me [though, I'm not denying the possibility that I may find something of interest from the 4e rules in the book that I can borrow for my own system]. Since I was set on some lore-content being included, I may just have to shift my hard-earned gold pieces to other more necessary books for the moment, and come back to this once it enters the sales/bargain bin. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 04:51:38
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I am seriously considering buying this, except now I am having one small problem -
WHY did they name it that, when it has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside?
I'm all for cool advertising, but this seems to be actually misleading.
I know what the book is all about (thanks mostly to Diffan), but it appears that the name is meant to lure people who are clueless.
Not nice... not nice at all... 
On a brighter note, and relating to what Sage said, I am finding more and more FR novels and sourcebooks at BestBaragainBooks - the discount bookstore near me. The selection used to be pretty slim, ut its been getting better and better. Didn't know if that is good for FR, but I know its good for me.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2010 04:57:37 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 05:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WHY did they name it that, when it has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside?
Indeed.
Though, I will note that I've long been tinkering with an idea for a Lost Empires-styled tome for ancient D&D-related non-world specific lore [which is kind of what I thought this Fallen Lands tome would be like]. It's just finding the time to set my notes down and start working on them.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 06:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WHY did they name it that, when it has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside?
I think I know why. See, the Heroes of... line is kinda replacing the Player's Handbook. Much like Hollywood, they realize tagging a number to the end of the title doesn't sell the movie anymore. Hence, why "Rocky VI" is actually Rocky Balboa.
Since they stopped using PHB as the book's title, they're now going with the Heroes of..., e.g. Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, Heroes of Shadow, etc. Not sure what route they will take for the DMG/MM books, but the new ones are already called Dungeon Master's Kit (the Essential DMG) and Monster Vault (the Essential Monster Manual).
But just because the Essentials line has put out a Red Box, a new PHB (Heroes of the Fallen Lands), a new DMG (Dungeon Master's Kit) and a new MM (Monster Vault) doesn't mean it's an entirely new edition and you'll need to buy these books. Just like you didn't need 4E's PHB2, PHB3, DMG2, MM2, or MM3. Unless of course, you want to use something in them that's not in the other books.
Edit: I've got a question. You the designer putting together Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The book is set to detail, for the "Essentials" line, the Druid/Ranger/Paladin/Warlock classes and the Dragonborn/Drow/Half-Elf/Half-Orc/Tiefling races. Now, three things stick out to me there: Drow. Ranger. Forgotten.
You've already gone back on the whole "Three books: No more, no less" rule you established, why the HECK don't you call the book Heroes of the Forgotten Realms, tack in a RAS short story and increase the sales??? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 26 Sep 2010 06:55:07 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 14:12:29
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@ Markus: Yea, I don't know why they called it that other than the fact that is sounds interesting. Nothing more, nothing less. But it's pretty much what I've come to expect from WotC, game material that I'll have to create my own fluff for.
@ The Sage: Yea, sorry this tome is very lore lite. You might enjoy the supplement called Vor Rukoth: An Ancient Ruins Adventure Site as it details a fully developed Ruin. Could hold some interesting lore in that one!
@ Ashe: I don't know if they're fully dissolving the PH-line of books, there's still some speculation that there will still be a Player's Handbook 4 in the future. Though that speculation goes on to note that most classes from here on out will have the "Essential" feel to them. Meaning charts with class levels, class features through level progression, and a more fundimental approach for Martial classes and their use of Melee Basic Attacks.
As for the Heroes of the Forgotten Realms idea, I really like it. More "Realms-ian" feel to classes and such with more possibilities that distinguish Elves and Eladrin and the different kinds of Dwarves.
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sgg47167
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 14:55:35
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I gave 4e a second chance with the Essentials line and so far I like it much better than the originally released core books. My group played one short campaign in 4e when it was first released, then we went back to 3.5 and on to Pathfinder. The 4e books just sat on my gaming shelf for the past couple of years gathering dust. Even though I like Essentials better than "regular" 4e and I do plan on making it a regular game at my table, Pathfinder is still my fantasy game of choice and will be my default system.
As for why the PHB was called Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms, I took that to be a reference to the points of light idea. The books mention that empires and kingdoms have risen and fallen, so that's how I took the meaning behind the title. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
My only issue with 4e as a whole is very simple and to long time players probably silly. I get screwed up when creating characters because I get the feeling I'm supposed to put "powers" in the Attack boxes to figure the BAB for said powers. However, my 3e brain says weapons go there. So where do I record the BAB for the powers?
I've taken to using a 4 page character sheet that has a power card page. I just record that stuff there.
One thing I still don't like is the fact that basic attacks are called powers. That just seems pointless. Why not just have basic melee and range attacks be simply attacks rather than calling them encounter powers? Also all the powers just seem more like feats and spells and find the idea of powers that can only be used at certain times to be pointless as well.
Of course those issues are minor and easily overlooked. Other than than that I find the Rules Compendium and Heroes of... books to be far superior to the original books. I really like them. |
"Justice prevails... Evil justice!" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 15:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sgg47167
I gave 4e a second chance with the Essentials line and so far I like it much better than the originally released core books. My group played one short campaign in 4e when it was first released, then we went back to 3.5 and on to Pathfinder. The 4e books just sat on my gaming shelf for the past couple of years gathering dust. Even though I like Essentials better than "regular" 4e and I do plan on making it a regular game at my table, Pathfinder is still my fantasy game of choice and will be my default system.
This is what we do. We have 2 primary DMs (myself and my friend) and when we run adventures or campaigns, it's usually with Pathfinder or 4E. I'm more partial to 4th while he's been purchasing stuff for Pathfinder (though he does get 4E stuff too). What I never understood is why people were taking sides. The game isn't big enought to allow for mutlipul editions?! lol just silly.
quote:
Originally posted by sgg47167
As for why the PHB was called Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms, I took that to be a reference to the points of light idea. The books mention that empires and kingdoms have risen and fallen, so that's how I took the meaning behind the title. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
That's a good idea as any I've heard and makes sense. We'll go with this!
quote:
Originally posted by sgg47167
My only issue with 4e as a whole is very simple and to long time players probably silly. I get screwed up when creating characters because I get the feeling I'm supposed to put "powers" in the Attack boxes to figure the BAB for said powers. However, my 3e brain says weapons go there. So where do I record the BAB for the powers?
Well, there is no more BAB. BAB is really just half your level rounded down. And I'm not a big fan of their character sheets to begin with, but with the Character Builder, you can just plug in the info and it types it out for you as to what goes where AND you can customize it.
quote:
Originally posted by sgg47167
I've taken to using a 4 page character sheet that has a power card page. I just record that stuff there.
One thing I still don't like is the fact that basic attacks are called powers. That just seems pointless. Why not just have basic melee and range attacks be simply attacks rather than calling them encounter powers? Also all the powers just seem more like feats and spells and find the idea of powers that can only be used at certain times to be pointless as well.
Of course those issues are minor and easily overlooked. Other than than that I find the Rules Compendium and Heroes of... books to be far superior to the original books. I really like them.
Couple of reason they went with the "power" structure route. Back in 3e/3.5 days, people felt that their melee or ranged base classes lacked flavor or unique-ness. Spellcasters get all these fancy, nifty, uber-cool spells that they sling around ALL day long and i get to....ah....swing with a sword. Maybe I can use a feat but it's the same thing. Swing (or twang), swing, swing. It gets stale. So in order to make it look more appealing, they made everything into "powers". But a Melee Basic Attac is just that, a swing w/ a weapon. But now it has a little more restriction, such as what key Ability it goes off of (like Strength) or not being able to use two-weapons with a melee basic attack. In addition, this power-structure allows for greater control and balance when compared to say...a class in 3.5 that didn't need Strength at all (like the Two-Weapon Fighter Rogue). So there's some consistancy within the game is why they did it that way.
And you mention that certain "limits" on powers seems pointless. And this is where the Essentials come into play. If you notice, Martial classes no longer receive Encounter or Daily "Attack" powers. This is due to people trying to make the game very literal and not understanding why a Figher can't use a daily power more than once. What's stopping him from doing this move again.. a pulled muscle? So they've made those classes who rely on Martial prowess less reliant on Powers and focues more on class features. Other classes that rely on different Power Sources such as Divine, Arcane, Psionic have an easier time explaining why someone can't call down their deities wrath 100x per day as channeling that much power would consume their coporeal body. Or a wizard might not be able to cast spells of that level because their power reserves just can support that sort of arcane manifistations for long.
Personally, I like the powers/exploits structure of the Martial classes though I think they would do better with a re-charge mechanic like the old Tome of Battle. Sure, you might be able to attack 4 people in 1 round with an encounter power, but it's gonna take you a few seconds to regain your composure, breath, and strength to do it again, hence a recharge that could be a full-round action involving nothing but "collecting" yourself and nothing else.
But I'm the sort of DM that takes it at face value and I understand that the game is structured around this sort of play-ability so I just don't focus on "Whys".
And I'm glad to hear you've found more enjoyment with the Essentials products sgg47167 and I hope you can find some uses for your older material too. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 16:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Back in 3e/3.5 days, people felt that their melee or ranged base classes lacked flavor or unique-ness.
I don't know if it's the people I gamed with or what, but I had never heard any complaints like this prior to 4E's release.
I'm not saying it's not valid, or that there were people that complained like this, but that I never heard any in the 25+ years I was gaming (including the dozens of conventions I attended). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 18:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Back in 3e/3.5 days, people felt that their melee or ranged base classes lacked flavor or unique-ness.
I don't know if it's the people I gamed with or what, but I had never heard any complaints like this prior to 4E's release.
I'm not saying it's not valid, or that there were people that complained like this, but that I never heard any in the 25+ years I was gaming (including the dozens of conventions I attended).
I noticed it towards the latter part of 3.5 when they just kept pumping out supplements for spellcasting classes like Complete Mage, Spell Compendium, and Tome of Magic that there was some dissent on the Wiz-Bro boards that non-magic users were getting no love and Weapon-Style feats were far from helping create balance within the system. But back then it was pretty much if you didn't feel like swinging a weapon (or shooting a bow) all the time, then multiclass to a spellcaster and go to town, but I don't think that would've solved some of the problems or arguments.
In my group, we optimize a lot so we ususally find something unique or intriguing within our "build" that kept us happy. Though the Tome of Battle did wonders to beef-up melee characters and add in lots lf flavor. My only real problem with it (3.5) was, at a certain point it becomes useless for melee-style classes (classes with a Full BAB) to have a 4th and 5th attack because they often don't hit. I'd rather it have some elements of Star Wars: Saga that allows you additional attacks throug feats, but that's neither here nor there. |
Edited by - Diffan on 26 Sep 2010 18:54:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 23:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Back in 3e/3.5 days, people felt that their melee or ranged base classes lacked flavor or unique-ness.
I don't know if it's the people I gamed with or what, but I had never heard any complaints like this prior to 4E's release.
I'm not saying it's not valid, or that there were people that complained like this, but that I never heard any in the 25+ years I was gaming (including the dozens of conventions I attended).
I've never heard that complaint, either. Besides, it makes sense to me -- what are you going to do, name every particular method of swinging a sword? Starting high and swinging it down to the left isn't much different than starting high and swinging it down to the right. You start naming all those maneuvers, it's going to quickly get ridiculous, and likely ridiculed. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 23:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WHY did they name it that, when it has absolutely nothing to do with what's inside?
I think I know why. See, the Heroes of... line is kinda replacing the Player's Handbook. Much like Hollywood, they realize tagging a number to the end of the title doesn't sell the movie anymore. Hence, why "Rocky VI" is actually Rocky Balboa.
Since they stopped using PHB as the book's title, they're now going with the Heroes of..., e.g. Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, Heroes of Shadow, etc. Not sure what route they will take for the DMG/MM books, but the new ones are already called Dungeon Master's Kit (the Essential DMG) and Monster Vault (the Essential Monster Manual).
From the perspective of someone who hasn't been paying attention to this stuff... Heroes of the Fallen Lands sounds like something specific to a particular setting. If I didn't know what this book was, and I saw it sitting on the shelf, I'd look around for other Fallen Lands material. Not finding any, I would be less inclined to pick this book up. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 02:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never heard that complaint, either. Besides, it makes sense to me -- what are you going to do, name every particular method of swinging a sword? Starting high and swinging it down to the left isn't much different than starting high and swinging it down to the right. You start naming all those maneuvers, it's going to quickly get ridiculous, and likely ridiculed.
Actually, there are dozens of forms and techniques using all different styles of weapons. Applying those to the gaming table, however, would be a bit more difficult than just saying "this spell range is this, and does xx amount of damage".
Again, speaking from my experiences I got bored with the average, sword/board or two-handed style melee character after a while. It got repetitious after a while and stale. Using maneuvers and stances from the ToB made things more versatile and actually gave melee-based characters more options within' a round to do something other than swing swing swing.
And if you wanted to, you could easily adapt the powers/stances from 4E into a mix/mash of maneuvers and stances that supported the Tome of Battle. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 04:49:09
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You do know that Tome of Battle was the "unofficial" Alpha test of 4E mechanics? Which is why a lot of 3.5 gamers I knew when it came out didn't like it, because it radically changed the fighter classes. My avatar is my favorite character's name. Ashe Ravenheart is a ranger that I started playing in 1992. He's made the transition from AD&D through 3.5/Pathfinder and, yes, I do have a 4.0 version of him written up. Never have I been bored playing a two-weapon fighter in any game I've ever played him in. In fact, some of his adventures are well-kno... NAY, LEGEND-(waitforit)-ARY among our gaming circle.
This poor half-elven ranger started out his adventuring life getting trapped in a sinking building's basement, full of ghosts and one ill-tempered badger. From there he defeated a dragon (with the help of an inebriated monk carrying a flagon of Kobold Ale), traveled to another realm (Talislanta), defeated a giant worm and helped to restore the worlds balance before returning with his friends to their home plane. All before he was level 5 (and I'm not talking your pansy d20 level five with feats and skills and ability advances, but your 2nd edition aww-you-rolled-low-on-your-ability-scores-too-bad-you'll-just-have-to-live-with-it kind of level 5).
After that, Ashe went on to become a (lesser) chosen of Mielikki, fight to save an entire world from Armageddon, defeat a hag and her pet giant octopus with a well-thrown potion of reduction, survive an encounter with a terrasque (BTW, crawling death in 2E=Terrasque immobilized), stand up to a god so his friends could escape, have the universe warp around him as the actions of him and his companions re-created the world anew, traveled the myriad of planes, wind up in Undermountain, got OUT of undermountain, singlehandedly defeated a Stone Colossus AND a Purple Worm (ahh, epic Level Ashe is sight), help a group of adventurers defeat the Zhents and Shar-worshipers in Shadowdale, recover the Ary'Velahr'Kerym from it's tomb, become the Arms Major of Myth Drannor AND survive adventuring for two YEARS with a Kender AND an Eladrin without losing his sanity.
So, if that's boring and monotonous, they yer not playing the game right*.
And, yes, I'm looking forward to playing the 4E Forgotten Realms game my friends are a part of once I move back to PA. Because Ashe will be a part of that game. Hmm? A half-elven ranger born in 1335 DR that didn't step through a time portal or get 'frozen' to awaken after the Spellplague? Well, that'd mean he'd be about 150 years old! That's not possible! Really? Show me anywhere in the 4E rules that says I can't be 150 years old and still jumping around like I'm 17. In fact, that's one thing I kinda like about 4E. In 3.5/Pathfinder, Ashe has these annoying modifiers to his ability scores because he's considered "Middle-Aged". Hell, in 4E, I don't even die of natural causes at a certain age.
*This is not meant seriously. I can understand some people not liking some classes, etc. As long as you're having fun, you're playing the game right. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 27 Sep 2010 04:49:54 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 15:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
You do know that Tome of Battle was the "unofficial" Alpha test of 4E mechanics? Which is why a lot of 3.5 gamers I knew when it came out didn't like it, because it radically changed the fighter classes.
Yea I realized that. It's probably a big reason why I enjoyed that supplement so much. I think it's greatest quality is that it was usable by ANY class, through feats, and it brought skills to life. By requiring skill checks along with an attack roll, you either got a benefit or penalty based on your skill check. Also, the fact that there was a re-charge ability built into the Martial Classes, it allowed those classes to enjoy some small aspect of a spell-caster. And I liked the lore involved with the 9 Swords, the temples, and how Eytan described those classes in the Realms.
It sounds like your Ranger has been through a lot and that's what makes this game so great. I don't think it was about the mechanics of the game since you've been through, what, 3 editions with this same character, but more on the how the story was done. And I think it's funny that you mention your Ranger (who I'm guessing wields 2 weapons) because the two most memorable characters I've played and enjoyed greatly weilded two weapons. A fighter/crusader/purple dragon knight who wielded his spiked sheild as an off-hand weapon AND threw it around like Captain America. And another character I've based off of the Headless Horseman (The Hessian) from the film Sleepy Hollow. The guy was a great horseman (fighter 10/tempest 5/noble 1) plus wielded a +2 cold iron flaming wounding longsword called Hellforged and a +2 cold iron tripping wounding hand-axe called Thresher and he was just straight up death dealer. With specific feats such as High Sword-Low Axe (Complete Warrior) he could trip people with two-weapon attacks, Spring Attack to another enemy and trip them two with Bounding Assault.
I haven't tried to re-create these character into 4E mainly because they're still involved in adventures with 3.5 campaigns and I REALLY want to finish up the Shadowdale: Scourge of the Land adventure. I think my purple dragon knight character is gearing up to face Lady Darkhope in the air with her on her Nightmare and me on my Celestial Pegasus!
But getting back to the topic at hand, the Essentials, I'm not sure what I'm allowed to post that won't get me in trouble with powers and class features but I'll do what I can.
Also, the Mage is pretty interesting since it can now put encounter spells into their spellbook AND encounter spells have Miss effects, further making them bad-a$$. |
Edited by - Diffan on 27 Sep 2010 15:48:48 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 20:06:55
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So I've been going over the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book, and I think I'm going to convert my current character whole-sale to the Knight from Essentials. One big reason I'm going this route is because the character was converted from 3.5 and he was a Knight from the PH2 and the Essentials do a good job carrying that style and feel over from 3.5. Plus we've introduced another character into the party and he is also a Paladin of Tempus and (I hate to say it) he's just plain ol' better mechanics wise.
So going through the class features of the knight, I have to say that I'm impressed. The knight has a multitude of stances to choose from at 1st level, picking 2 out of 6 starting out. As he gains levels, he gains additional options of his stances. The stances themselves are very unique as they all add some sort of penality to a foe you hit with a Melee Basic Attack or just Basic Attack.
One combo in paticular that I've found to be very interesting is the stance Defend the Line. With a successful hit, the target is slowed until the end of my next turn. Using that in conjunction with a feat called Vicious Advantage which gives you Combat Advantage (+2 to Attack rolls) against slowed opponents, thus basically giving you that nice bonus all the time as long as you hit.
Though I've decided not to use the Paragon Path Stalward Knight from that book and have decided to take one from the Warlord class. Though I'm having a bit of trouble deciding on what to choose. I've narrowed it down to 4, the White Raven (MP2), Captain of Fortune (MP2), Knight Commander (PHB), or Sword Marshal (PHB).
All in all, it seems that this could work out very well. Once I've giving it a test run through a gaming session or two, I can better tell if the Essentals are up to snuff with current builds and mechanics. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 06:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
My avatar is my favorite character's name. Ashe Ravenheart is a ranger that I started playing in 1992. He's made the transition from AD&D through 3.5/Pathfinder and, yes, I do have a 4.0 version of him written up. Never have I been bored playing a two-weapon fighter in any game I've ever played him in. In fact, some of his adventures are well-kno... NAY, LEGEND-(waitforit)-ARY among our gaming circle.
[snip]
That sounds like an awesome character, Ashe. He would be more than welcome at my gaming table.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 07:18:52
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| Thank Eric. Now, if you could be so kind as to write in one of your FR novels that Ashe found Ary'Velahr'Kerym so it's canon... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 15:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Thank Eric. Now, if you could be so kind as to write in one of your FR novels that Ashe found Ary'Velahr'Kerym so it's canon...
I'll get right on that.
I must warn you, though--on the occasions when I include characters who bear a passing resemblance to someone's PC, such characters have a tendency to die very quickly and loudly.
It's a gesture of affection, really. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 16:10:58
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| Heck, that's okay. By the time of post-Spellplague Realms, Ashe is old and cantankerous. He'd rather go out with a bang than in his bed (although, if the bang & bed are at the same time... ) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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4e Essentials
