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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 04:25:15
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Just wondering how many people use these alternate fencing weapons in their campaigns? If you use it do you allow the elves to get a +1 racial bonus for it? Personally I use them both and have dropped rapier from the elven choices. However, I do not use the courtblade...as I feel that two-handed fencing weapon is a Spear!
Thanks
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Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4471 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 11:29:10
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| While I've never had a character use the elven weapons, I do allow them in my games. Plus I've also incorporated a weapon called the Slimblade which deals 1d8 damage, a crit range of 18-20, and can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. |
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 11:39:44
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| We us them in the campaign where I'm a player, but only in name, I'm not sure if we get the racial bonus. The only other thing the alternate names (Thinblade, Lightblade, Courtblade) do is confuse you as to whether you need to roll a d6 or d8. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 21:22:04
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| A friend of mine decided to try out the elven weapons, and he created an elven bladesinger using the substitution levels provided for a duskblade. He also started it all off by taking 3 levels in swashbuckler, once more taking the elven substitution levels. It has created an absolutely wonderful character that is an elegant swordsman and he's decided to try out the other elven weapons later on. As it presently stands, I don't give an additional chance to hit with them for elves, but I do ignore having to take the exotic weapon proficiency for them. I've never agreed with that as a DM. Personally, I think that they're excellent weapons for an elf seeking to add grace to their combat style, and a taste of something a little different from the normal selections that many players select. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 21:59:37
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Purely from a realism point of view, how is the above-linked 'Slimblade' somehow a fencing weapon that allows one certain bonuses, but the typical 'longsword' is not?
That's a pretty hefty saber, up there. It's heavier than some longswords* used in both hands and it's heavier than most functional arming swords (which, as far as I know, if what the D&D Longsword is actually meant to represent).
*Real ones, that is, meant for two-handed use. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4471 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:46:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Purely from a realism point of view, how is the above-linked 'Slimblade' somehow a fencing weapon that allows one certain bonuses, but the typical 'longsword' is not?
That's a pretty hefty saber, up there. It's heavier than some longswords* used in both hands and it's heavier than most functional arming swords (which, as far as I know, if what the D&D Longsword is actually meant to represent).
*Real ones, that is, meant for two-handed use.
Well the art is purely that, art and derived from the series Wheel of Time. It was used to show that a slimblade is more elegant and has a swept-back style than the classical "cruciform" longsword. The swept-back style allows for a greater cut with less emphasis on muscular strength. The key, however, relies on the precision of the cut and this is where Dexterity comes into play. Plus it's about 1/2 the weight of a regular longsword.
So in game terms it's a longsword that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, a man after my own heart!! (Psst: Is Tethie ever coming back to the inn?)
Heh, yes, Telethian will be coming back in a little bit, I promise.  Thank you for asking, and give Lothir my best!  |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, sabers are usually a bit lighter and shorter than most longswords. Narrower, too. The typical cavalry saber is about 3 ft and is indeed suitable for fencing. don't belive it? Watch "Mask of Zorro". The ex-soldier from the US in it was using one. I've also handled a few sabers at a ren-faire when i was considering buying one. They are fairly light, as swords go.
Movies are poor indicators of reality.
And if cavalry sabers are suitable for fencing, so are arming swords. And longswords.
See below.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
Note that the saber linked above weights 1.25 kg, whereas the average arming sword during the medieval period was 1.2 kg. Many arming swords would be 0.9 kg or so. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Purely from a realism point of view, how is the above-linked 'Slimblade' somehow a fencing weapon that allows one certain bonuses, but the typical 'longsword' is not?
That's a pretty hefty saber, up there. It's heavier than some longswords* used in both hands and it's heavier than most functional arming swords (which, as far as I know, if what the D&D Longsword is actually meant to represent).
*Real ones, that is, meant for two-handed use.
The link is to a replica for a Heron marked sword from WoT, generally speaking it would be considered a bastard sword. Slimblades in RotW look like a short sword, but are described like those martial arts swords (thin and flexible). Thinblades do seem much like a saber. A Courtblade resembles a two-handed thinblade (though described more like a two-handed rapier--impossibly long, and thin with a baskethilt). |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Plus it's about 1/2 the weight of a regular longsword.
No. No it isn't.
A regular longsword, in real life, is a two-handed weapon. And it still doesn't weight more than 1.4-1.5 kg, usually.
If you mean a one handed arming sword, those weight less than this saber, generally. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 00:19:29
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As far as the realism of the elven weapons go...they're "elven" and hence never meant for realism.
As far as saber fencing...I'm not an expert, but I do know that saber, rapier, and epee fencing are all different. They use different styles, different rules, and different scoring methods. On top of that, none of the tools in the modern sport of fencing bear more than a passing resemblance to the period weapons they are meant to represent.
The main reason I'ld say an arming sword is unsuitable for fencing is the lack of a bell guard or basket-hilt. In short it would seem to be a great way to lose some fingers. |
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Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:03:40
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Well, speaking as a fencer, I'd like to point out that no one fences rapier, at least not any longer and not out of such foolery as the SCA. However, a lot of rapier tactics and blade maneuvers are directly applicable to epee, since the weapons are of a similar length and weight, and both rely primarily on the point. My coach has adapted a number of rapier techniques into his epee fencing and they work really well.
The modern fencing sabre meanwhile is styled after the old cavalry sabres, including a restriction of valid target area to the waist up (figuring that if two guys were fighting on horseback, waist up was pretty much all you could hit). Our club gave one of our members a replica cavalry sabre for her birthday once, and while yes, it's a lot heavier, almost all of the moves and skills of a modern fencer translated back down to it.
Remember, the first fencing weapon was the foil, and it was developed to be a training weapon for the rapier. There's a reason why fencing is a martial art.
Now, as for the elven weapons, I've always had a soft spot for some of the original artwork for the LotR Galadrim weapons, the really thin, elegant things that existed on paper before they were scaled up in practice. So I've always pictured a courtblade much like the long, slim, two-handed sword Haldir uses in the Two Towers movie. And yes, as a fencer I realize how much a lack of a guard would hurt in an actual fencing-style bout, but darn it, it just looks too pretty to care. And besides, I figure if you've had half a millennia to practice, such small problems wouldn't be much of an issue. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
As far as the realism of the elven weapons go...they're "elven" and hence never meant for realism.
There is a favourite poem of mine, a fragment of which refers to how I like my fantasy:
[...]
One must
make a distinction
however: when dragged into prominence by half poets, the
result is not poetry,
nor till the poets among us can be
'literalists of
the imagination'--above
insolence and triviality and can present
for inspection, 'imaginary gardens with real toads in them', shall
we have
it.[...]
'Poetry' -Marianne Moore
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
As far as saber fencing...I'm not an expert, but I do know that saber, rapier, and epee fencing are all different. They use different styles, different rules, and different scoring methods. On top of that, none of the tools in the modern sport of fencing bear more than a passing resemblance to the period weapons they are meant to represent.
The main reason I'ld say an arming sword is unsuitable for fencing is the lack of a bell guard or basket-hilt. In short it would seem to be a great way to lose some fingers.
Arming swords have hilts designed to protect the hand and are usually wielded with gauntlets. The elaborate hilts only came along when silly civilians without gauntlets started to use swords in duels, i.e. as improvised replacements for something that was perfectly adequate in earlier times, but no longer fashionable.
Besides, have you seen a jian? Seen one used in Tai Chi Chuan demonstrations?
If that's not graceful fencing, there is no such thing as fencing.
And not a bell guard or quillion to be seen. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:11:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Remember, the first fencing weapon was the foil, and it was developed to be a training weapon for the rapier. There's a reason why fencing is a martial art.
Transititional French School rapier constitutes recognisable 'fencing', as does the use of the smallsword.
And while these are no battlefield weapons, they are deadly in a duel and did kill men. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Now, as for the elven weapons, I've always had a soft spot for some of the original artwork for the LotR Galadrim weapons, the really thin, elegant things that existed on paper before they were scaled up in practice. So I've always pictured a courtblade much like the long, slim, two-handed sword Haldir uses in the Two Towers movie. And yes, as a fencer I realize how much a lack of a guard would hurt in an actual fencing-style bout, but darn it, it just looks too pretty to care. And besides, I figure if you've had half a millennia to practice, such small problems wouldn't be much of an issue.
Actually I figured the guard would actually make a two-handed weapon pretty hard to use effectively. Seems like it would just be in the way to me. And if you leave it off you have something like a curvaceous, almost feminine, katana or tachi.
What do you do think would work better courtblade as illustrated or as described? |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Besides, have you seen a jian? Seen one used in Tai Chi Chuan demonstrations?
If that's not graceful fencing, there is no such thing as fencing.
And not a bell guard or quillion to be seen.
Touche sir, touche. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4471 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 03:56:16
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Just to let people know, the weapon called Slimblade I posted earlier is homebrew and has no "offical" D&D support (at least that I'm aware of) and is NOT featured in Races of the Wild. That supplement had 3 distinct elven "bladed" weapons: The Thinblade, Lightblade, and Elven Courtblade.
I used the slimblade to emphasis a heaver version of the thinblade and a semi-cross between the scimitar and longsword. It's 1/2 weight of a longsword is due to elven design and done with an expert craftsman folding techinque (much like a katana).
While I like the thinblade, I'm not really a fan of the fencing/rapier/foil style and wanted a nice cutting weapon that could still utilize an elf's grace and superior Dexterity.
And I know earlier people said quoting a movie isn't a good example but I really REALLY like the fight scene in Shanghai Knights with the villian and his dual-wielding sabres against Jackie Chan and I think that does show that the weapon can be used in that sort of scenario. Plus, I need not mention that Artemis Entreri used a sabre through some of the books until he got Chairon's Claw and he fought pretty darn well with it too.
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Edited by - Diffan on 10 Sep 2010 03:58:36 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 05:19:08
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My point is less that you shouldn't be able to fence with sabers, but more that almost any sword that was actually used in combat can likely be used in a mobile style which relies on the wrist to control the blade.
The sharp distinction between 'fencing' blades and non-fencing weapon that the game system draws here is not really supported by any evidence or even good sense.
Any realistic rapier is probably going to be heavier and more awkward than a good arming sword or cavalry saber. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 16:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
My point is less that you shouldn't be able to fence with sabers, but more that almost any sword that was actually used in combat can likely be used in a mobile style which relies on the wrist to control the blade.
The sharp distinction between 'fencing' blades and non-fencing weapon that the game system draws here is not really supported by any evidence or even good sense.
Any realistic rapier is probably going to be heavier and more awkward than a good arming sword or cavalry saber.
Not fence with sabers? Why the heck not? Though it's primarily a slashing weapon, it DOES have a lighter and more flexible build than most swords of similar length, and it can be used as a piercing weapon as well. Versitile, and quite effective in both fencing and hack-n-slash fighting. Plus,there are so many styles that it almost becomes a work of art in itself in some cases. I've been drooling over a book at the local antique shop about the history of swords, and it has some gorgeous historical ones in it that were both functional and aestetically nice. And then there's the sword smith at that ren-faire- he forges some truly remarkable weapons. All of his are FULLY functional, (Not just replicas for your wall, I'm talking battle-ready, here.) and a lot of them are made with specialt techniques that make them very flexible and strong, without a lot of weight. Much like I'd imagine an elven-made blade would be... |
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 17:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Not fence with sabers? Why the heck not?
Thanks for reading my post carefully enough to interpret it exactly opposite to the explicit statement I made in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Though it's primarily a slashing weapon, it DOES have a lighter and more flexible build than most swords of similar length, and it can be used as a piercing weapon as well.
The fact that this is not true is rather my point.
Most sabers used in warfare are not lighter or more flexible than most swords of a similar length. They are about equal in weight, possibly slightly heavier. The curve of the weapon means more material for the same length. This translates to more weight. It's not exactly rocket science.
There was an item of fashion also called a 'saber', often qualified as 'civilian saber', which was lighter and handier. It was also not meant for fighting, but for looking dashing on the belt of a civilian who wanted to project a martial image.
But to reiterate my point, once again, it really doesn't matter if you call a sword an arming sword, backsword, broadsword, longsword, saber or smallsword. Or even something entirely different.
If you can 'fence', i.e. enjoy the benefits of Weapon Expertise, with a rapier, you can fence with any sword. The same goes for sabers, really.
The only 'fencing' sword that really was lighter than contemporary battlefield swords was the smallsword and that was only developed in a world where guns had become the primary battlefield weapons. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4471 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 18:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If you can 'fence', i.e. enjoy the benefits of Weapon Expertise, with a rapier, you can fence with any sword. The same goes for sabers, really.
The only 'fencing' sword that really was lighter than contemporary battlefield swords was the smallsword and that was only developed in a world where guns had become the primary battlefield weapons.
I like that. Really, if you have the Dex score you should be able to use the Weapon Finesse feat with any sort of (one-handed) sword reguardless of style/weight and have no weapon requirement. I might actually just take out that requirement out of my games. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 19:16:13
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Apparently, you have not handled the ones that I did. I tried several other types of swords from the same smith, and I'm sorry, but the sabers generally WERE lighter than anything of similar length besides the rapiers, which were longer, anyway. The sabers I handled just felt more comfortable to me. And mind you, these were cavalry type blades, and fully functional. He had some classic long swords that I tried, and they were not nearly as easy to wield one-handed. Notice I did not say bastard swords. It's simple- wider, thicker blade = heavier weapon. Unless I was imagining things! Believe me, as a 5', 95 lb female, I tend to notice these things. (For the simple reason that IT'S FRIGGIN HEAVY!!)
And apperantly, you also missed the part about the smithing techniques being used that MADE them flexible. I have seen examples of his work shave layers off of paper, cut through a free-hanging rope in one swing without fraying it, and even be driven point-first through entire STACKS of quarters without a nick or scratch. He has a method of forging that creates what is called "living steel" (a technique only about a dozen people in the world are capable of producing,) which can be bent to a 90 degree angle and snap back absolutely straight. (Trust me, I've seen him do it....) Hells, I even tried to get a custom piece made, but the waiting list was five years long, if that tells you anything! (Someday I am going to have a matched pair made, even if I have to mortgage my soul to do it....)
Anywho, the point is, it's one thing to look at a blade's stats and say it's heavier, but for a person who is trying to find the perfect weapon, having them in your hand does indeed make a difference. A lot of it is in the balance, too. There's a reason the cavalry weapon was made as it was- it's hard to wield a weapon in one hand for long while trying to control a 1200 lb animal with the other! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 20:14:48
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Let's not get to bogged down in historical examples. Historically they didn't have nice neat categories of swords the way we do today. And the terms we use in D&D were not only not used historically, but are not used by modern experts either. As a reference to weights....
"As leading sword expert Ewart Oakeshott unequivocally stated: "Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs."
"Additionally, when it comes to rapiers, which generally weighed between two and two-and-a-half pounds, their weights can be somewhat misleading. Being such slender thrusting blades, rapiers often have the majority of their mass at their hilts, giving them a balance that lends agility to their points despite their weight comparative to much wider cutting swords."
The above is quoted from the following website. As it mentions, anyone who wants to make a serious study of medieval swords should read up on Ewart Oakeshott.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
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Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 22:32:54
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Animosity? Not on my part, at least. Simply stating a few points- some may or may not agree, but speaking as someone who has an interest in blades (one might call it a slight "fascination with sharp pointy objects", lol!) I just had to mention that. I concur with the weights given above being average, although I'd have to say that a 2.5 lb weapon with most of the weight in the blade feels a LOT different than one with more of the weight in the hilt!
Anywho, getting back to topic- if it's a racial weapon, I don't see why a PC should have to take an Exotic Weapon feat just to use it if they belong to that race. And they should gat any racial bonuses that apply to the weapon, too. Then again, I switched long sword for cutlass for my drow, so.... (More appropriate for a sea-faring culture, IMO.)
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Elven Thinblade/Lightblade
