| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2010 : 21:10:06
|
Just Finished Book Two of the Blades of the Moonsea. I really enjoyed this book, maybe a bit less then Swordmage (althouh I usually find book two of most trilogies not as engrossing).
I was very surprised by the Spelljamming in this novel. It was unexpected, weird, but pretty cool at the same time. Anyone else have any thoughts or insights on the spelljamming in this novel or Spelljammers and the realms in general?
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 01:56:06
|
Well, Rich Baker has previously said [about the then-coming 4e Realms], back in late '07, that:-
quote:
"I actually think we will keep a tiny little hint of spelljamming alive in the setting. Don't expect it to be a very prominent feature, but we're not planning to get rid of it. Pirates from the Tears of Selune? That's just cool."
...
As for spelljamming in the Realms, generally -- There's never really been all that much SPELLJAMMER influence in the Realms. There are portions built into the firmament of the setting, of course, such as the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities arriving in the Realms via spelljammer, as well as a definitive spelljamming presence in the Netherese enclave of Yeoman's Loft, and the elven spelljammer's that rose to Evermeet's defense many centuries past.
The 3e Realms somewhat downplayed the SPELLJAMMER influence, but that was mainly due to Wizards intent to cut back on references to worlds no longer in the publishing sphere. With Rich's words above, though, and through the efforts of Brian James, I'm sure spelljamming will remain a part of the Realms for the entirety of 4e. As Brian has previously said:-
quote:
"Spelljamming is not going to be emphasized in the 4E Realms at all. I just like to toss in a passing reference once in a while for the fans of spelljamming (of which I am one!) for continuity sake."
Further tidbits:-
-- Additionally, the entry for 623 DR in Grand History of the Realms acknowledges the actual existence of the 'Spelljammer' itself. Brian once confirmed that the entry was a direct [and deliberate] spelljamming reference in 3e Realmslore. Additionally, it reinforces most of the vague spelljamming references that have been included previously in sources like Serpent Kingdoms for example.
-- The 3e FRCS confirmed that spelljamming still existed in the 3e FR cosmology. These were the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks -- such as the "thinly veiled" reference in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms.
-- Spelljamming has been referenced in core 3e D&D also, through another "thinly veiled" reference in the Neogi entry of Lords of Madness.
-- There are also SPELLJAMMER references in the FRCG, which are there simply because they are part of the canon history of the setting.
-- Brian also included a reference to the enigmatic Juna [from the SPELLJAMMER novels] in his "Ecology of the Sharn" article in DRAGON #373.
-- The SPELLJAMMER novel -- Into the Void -- features Nimbral. It actually expands upon what was written about the realm in the Realmspace [another Realms/SPELLJAMMER source] accessory.
-- So far as we know, the Elven Imperial Navy stops on Evermeet. And during the time of Cormanthyr, the Coronal's Court received EIN visitors on occasion.
-- Knowledge about spelljamming and how to create the uniquely elven spelljamming vessels [though not the helms themselves] was alive and well during the height of Cormanthyr's power. See C:EoE.
-- The Shou space program has waxed and waned over the years [pre-3e], though the Empire does still have considerable presence in both Wildspace and throughout the other Crystal Spheres. And Kara-Tur itself contains most of the known spelljamming ports on Toril.
-- If you read the write-up of Oryndoll in DDGttU, you'll see Eric Boyd suggests pretty strongly that the illithids arrived in the Realms circa -11,000 DR from the planet of Glyth via spelljammers. As such, I'd assume this particular knowledge hasn't been easily forgotten by a race that is well known for its vicious pursuit of power and total domination over all other races -- spelljamming would be a crucial aspect of any 'illithid plan for dominance' in Realmspace after all. Thus, spelljamming knowledge has very likely filtered down through the various mind flayer communities across the Realms, and throughout Realmspace, to a considerable degree since the time of their arrival in FR's Crystal Sphere.
-- Evermeet, Calimport, and Nimbral also receive their share of regular spelljamming traffic from beyond Realmspace -- as noted in Dale 'Slade' Henson's Realmspace accessory.
-- Evermeet does have a number of Men-O-War [an elven spelljamming craft] of its own. I've not seen any particular reference to them actually leaving the atmosphere, it may be that they're kept close to home, in order to act as additional line of defense. It's possible that they may not even have proper spelljamming helms -- at least, not ones capable of interstellar travel.
-- And this, from Ed:-
quote:
"Earth IS accessible by spelljammers, but its crystal sphere must be (hint of truth: IS, for all of the following) either very hard to find in the Flow, or very perilous to enter and traverse, or both, because spelljammer visits are VERY rare. Time does elapse at different rates in different crystal spheres, so it’s hard to say what year spelljammers arrive, except from the point of view of Earth (the very few known visits were in the very ancient past, and in early Victorian times).
Regarding your third question, there are indeed preventions associated with Earth that prevent genuine time travel to Earth’s past or future. Just what they are remains mysterious, though they are obviously mighty enough to thwart the most powerful spells known to the Realms . . . so they may well be deities, or mindless natural forces of equal might.
By the way, consider that “remains mysterious” to mean until NDAs are lifted that I don’t believe will ever be removed, given the current ownership of the copyright holder and their usual stances to avoid real-world religious controversies. Any DM is free to arrange things the way they see fit for their own campaign, but it’s unlikely that official published Realmslore will ever Go There."
-- A few Halruaan skyships have spelljamming helms, but those are the minority. Halruaan skyships are powered by many, many levitation spells cast on the shells that line the hull. They are controlled by wind and a special rod linked to the shells.
-- The Halruaans likely had partial access to whatever limited research the Netherese themselves conducted on spelljamming during Netheril's own brief flirtation with spelljammers. Though, certainly not enough to grant the Halruaans complete access to the secrets of spelljamming and of the helms themselves. We know the Halruaan Skyships are said to have some part of their origin in designs crafted by the Netherese. These designs may have been in direct response to Netheril's inability to properly harness spelljamming technology. However, the Netherese were largely unsuccessful in both creating and understanding the helms themselves -- thus, whatever few pieces of Netherese spelljamming research the Halruaans did manage to glean from ancient records, likely wouldn't have given much of a boost to their own research efforts into spelljamming helms. Instead, we see the Halruaans devote much of their own efforts to redefining and expanding upon the initial Netherese Skyship designs. Halruaans likely only had minor access to limited spelljamming lore to begin with. And thus, 'tis likely they would've decided, at least early on, to elaborate on pre-existing Netherese designs involving Skyships, rather than trying to develop a spelljamming alternative. As it is, I don't see the Halruaan Skyships as the result of failures made by Halruaan researchers relying on Netherese spelljamming techniques. It's likely that there simply may not have been enough useful Netherese spelljamming lore to motivate such Halruaan research in the first place. Rather, I see the Halruaan Skyships as designs the Halruaans themselves built upon using what little Netherese lore, regarding Skyships from Netheril's time, filtered down through the centuries.
-- In 3e's Shining South sourcebook and previous lore it says the Loxo arrived in Faerûn by spelljammer.
-- The Netherese had explored spelljamming, and decided it wasn't for them. You'll find their reasons why on pg. 9 of Netheril: Empire of Magic -- under "Realmspace."
...
That's all I can remember at the moment.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 03:51:08
|
Wow! Thanks for the incredible amount of info Sage. I especially appreciate the insight into why the spelljamming was even in a 4ed novel.
As a side note to the information you have provided, is the "Spelljammer" series worth reading? I own books 1-5 and have looked for years for book six "The Ultimate Helm" but can only find it at very expensive prices on rare book sites. Would it be worth the price? |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 03:54:57
|
| Well Evermeet has/had 6 Starwings (depending on time you play), I will add it was per 2nd Edition. Source "Elves of Evermeet" Official Game Accessory. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:05:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
-- Evermeet does have a number of Men-O-War [an elven spelljamming craft] of its own. I've not seen any particular reference to them actually leaving the atmosphere, it may be that they're kept close to home, in order to act as additional line of defense. It's possible that they may not even have proper spelljamming helms -- at least, not ones capable of interstellar travel.
Teach me not to read fully. From same source I cited before.
Page 87
The Starwings, also called Ruarhimaer have major or minor helm.
As to their use quote:
Starwngs are fully capable of interplanetary travel, but generally kept close to home and their real mission - the defense of Evermeet
Perhaps 3rd renamed them or changed them.
Edit Note: Fixed two typing errors |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 27 Aug 2010 04:43:26 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:23:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
As a side note to the information you have provided, is the "Spelljammer" series worth reading? I own books 1-5 and have looked for years for book six "The Ultimate Helm" but can only find it at very expensive prices on rare book sites. Would it be worth the price?
I'd say that depends on just how much you're a fan of the setting. I certainly enjoyed the series, though some books were more interesting than others. I especially loved the first three books, mostly because of the background SPELLJAMMER lore and the references to the ancient Juna civilisation [as I mentioned in my post above]. I found that particularly fascinating. Elaine's contribution to the series stands out, and not only because it's from her pen. She captures the intense adventure and scope of the setting brilliantly... really bringing the concept of "Adventures in Space" to its ultimate form of expression. Into the Void is another favourite, though I suspect that mostly because I'm a fan of tinker gnomes, who form a significant part of the cast for the book.
The rest are worth reading at least once, if only because they're so rare now and have become so firmly entrenched in ancient D&D lore.
...
As for the last book, I suggest you try nobleknight.com. As the SJ novels usually pop up on that second-hand site for rather reasonable prices.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:29:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
-- Evermeet does have a number of Men-O-War [an elven spelljamming craft] of its own. I've not seen any particular reference to them actually leaving the atmosphere, it may be that they're kept close to home, in order to act as additional line of defense. It's possible that they may not even have proper spelljamming helms -- at least, not ones capable of interstellar travel.
Teach me not to read fully. From samr source I cited before.
Page 87
The Starwings, also called Ruarhimaer have major or minor helm.
As to their use [quote] Starwngs are fully capable of interplanetary travel, but generally kept close to home and their real mission - the defense of Evermeet{/quote]
Perhaps 3rd renamed them or changed them.
Or I'm mistaken. Though I'm sure there was a reference somewhere about the navy of Evermeet having several Man-O-War craft in defence of the Green Isle.
Though, I suppose it *might* have been speculation on my part. Of course, it's not completely outside the realm of possibility. The EIN spends time on Evermeet, so it's likely that a Man-O-War or three have occasionally stopped by for extended periods -- to protect elven interests in and around Realmspace.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Aginor37
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:43:52
|
| Didn't Gamalon Idogyr Also have a staff that, to at least a limited capacity, work along the lines of a spelljamming helm? As is using the power of a mage to be able to move a vessel/building (the tower in Blackstaff, for example) beyond the bounds of Toril, provide a bubble of air for said vessel, etc,? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36882 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:47:18
|
I got my replacement set on eBay for a reasonable amount. I've not read the books in years, though.
There's another reference to spelljamming that's spread across a couple of sourcebooks. In Cult of the Dragon, there's a write-up on Dretchroyaster and his lair in the crashed remnants of an elven spelljamming ship. Dretch is grafting bits of it onto himself, and is trying to find the helm so that he himself can spelljam. The Fall of Myth Drannor expands this out and describes the battles the Monarch Mordent, a monarch ship, fought in before it crashed and formed the glade that became Dretch's lair.
Also, there's an underwater "forest" in the Sea of Fallen Stars that's a crashed elven ship. The sourcebook by that name also mentions that Khelben spent thirty years eradicating evidence of wrecked spelljammers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 04:49:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aginor37
Didn't Gamalon Idogyr Also have a staff that, to at least a limited capacity, work along the lines of a spelljamming helm? As is using the power of a mage to be able to move a vessel/building (the tower in Blackstaff, for example) beyond the bounds of Toril, provide a bubble of air for said vessel, etc,?
DRAGON #159 presents an article in the form of a letter written by Gamalon, and addressed to Elminster. In it, Idogyr describes several Spelljammer-specific magical items. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 07:12:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
Wow! Thanks for the incredible amount of info Sage. I especially appreciate the insight into why the spelljamming was even in a 4ed novel.
Indeed. Thanks, Sage.
I wonder, could the phaerrimm have also reached the Realms via spelljamming?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 09:36:49
|
What about Stardock? Isn't that a Spelljammer Port?
Skyship Glade on page 54 in the Tethyr book from the Lands of Intrigue box... |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 10:23:30
|
| You're right Brim, that's another reference I forgot. Which is strange, because Stardock is one of my favourite Realms locations. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Aug 2010 10:24:29 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 11:14:17
|
No problem Sage.
I will be checking out my Stardock PDF again because of this... |
Edited by - Brimstone on 27 Aug 2010 13:40:09 |
|
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 13:14:28
|
| Did Gamalon Idogyr appear in any FR novels? |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 13:39:37
|
| Blackstaff IIRC. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 15:00:21
|
| Yes, 'twas Blackstaff. And jorn, if you perform a search for Gamalon lore here at Candlekeep, you'll likely come across an old scroll of mine which details most of his other appearances in the Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Aug 2010 15:02:10 |
|
|
|
skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 17:58:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, Rich Baker has previously said [about the then-coming 4e Realms], back in late '07, that:-
quote:
"I actually think we will keep a tiny little hint of spelljamming alive in the setting. Don't expect it to be a very prominent feature, but we're not planning to get rid of it. Pirates from the Tears of Selune? That's just cool."
...
OMG!!! How AWESOME is THAT!?!?! That's how I like the realms to be... |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36882 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 01:32:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, 'twas Blackstaff. And jorn, if you perform a search for Gamalon lore here at Candlekeep, you'll likely come across an old scroll of mine which details most of his other appearances in the Realmslore.
Which aren't a lot, as I recall. Lands of Intrigue is the only other place he appears, IIRC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 02:03:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, 'twas Blackstaff. And jorn, if you perform a search for Gamalon lore here at Candlekeep, you'll likely come across an old scroll of mine which details most of his other appearances in the Realmslore.
Which aren't a lot, as I recall. Lands of Intrigue is the only other place he appears, IIRC.
I listed the few/brief appearances in DRAGON as well, as I recall. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36882 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 02:44:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, 'twas Blackstaff. And jorn, if you perform a search for Gamalon lore here at Candlekeep, you'll likely come across an old scroll of mine which details most of his other appearances in the Realmslore.
Which aren't a lot, as I recall. Lands of Intrigue is the only other place he appears, IIRC.
I listed the few/brief appearances in DRAGON as well, as I recall.
True. I was just thinking of stuff with the actual FR imprint. I'm thinking there wasn't any before LoI. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Corsair: Spelljamming
