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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
713 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 04:47:29
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WARNING: I HAVE ONLY READ AS FAR AS THE END OF ELFSHADOW IN THE SONG AND SWORDS SERIES, SO PLEASE TRY NOT TO SPOIL THE SERIES. THANK YOU.
Okay, so we all know that Danilo Thann has at least one level of Spellsinger. However, something doesn't add up about his supposed official write-up. Of course, where and when it was written for 3.5, I don't know, BUT...
1) At least according to his Forgotten Realms Wiki page, Danilo has levels in Wizard, not Bard or Sorcerer. With the requirements of the PrC as featured in Races of Faerun, Wizard doesn't seem to work. Were there any errata changes to the PrC that I may have missed?
2) How can Danilo's elven heritage really be explained? Sure, it's present in the novelization (at least of Elfshadow), but why do I feel that for character statistics, that this potentially may be overbearing leeway (ie: "cheating") on WotC's part?
Thanks in advance.
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
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Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 06:17:17
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| To me, it was quite obvious from the Songs & Swords/Harpers series that Danilo was a bard, not a wizard. Though to be sure you might want to ask Elaine in her scroll. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 08:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Okay, so we all know that Danilo Thann has at least one level of Spellsinger. However, something doesn't add up about his supposed official write-up. Of course, where and when it was written for 3.5, I don't know, BUT...
1) At least according to his Forgotten Realms Wiki page, Danilo has levels in Wizard, not Bard or Sorcerer. With the requirements of the PrC as featured in Races of Faerun, Wizard doesn't seem to work. Were there any errata changes to the PrC that I may have missed?
Not sure on 3E and 3.5, but back in the days of 2E, Danilo that was a "dual-classed" (well, triple, anyway) 3rd-level fighter, 9th-level wizard, and 13th level bard. I suspect that, when 3E did away with 1E and 2E dual-classing and introduced multiclassing for all races (although the way it is done, it looks more like 1E and 2E dual-classing, but that's another matter entirely) they could not get him the same kind of progression, as under 3E that would have made him a 22nd-level character, which would have been too powerful. So there was a need to make him a wizard (as in the novels), capable of memorizing and casting teleport (therefore 9th level), and a need to give him "spellsong". In 2E, the "spellsinger" was never a specific class, but would probably have been handled as a variant spellcasting system for the bard class. The Players' Options series did create a School of Song, which could have formed the basis for a spellsong-based spellcaster.
quote:
2) How can Danilo's elven heritage really be explained? Sure, it's present in the novelization (at least of Elfshadow), but why do I feel that for character statistics, that this potentially may be overbearing leeway (ie: "cheating") on WotC's part?
I don't have any 3E material, so I am not sure what the exact prerequisites are, but Danilo's elven heritage is elaborated on further down the road in the series. As far as statistics are concerned, there's always been tension between characters' depictions in fiction and their statistics. An early example of this was Drizzt, and his "instant giant kills," which make for good dramatic effect in novels, but were not "possible" under the rules of the time (1E, 2E). The authors tend not to worry too much about playable game mechanics, but concentrate on a "special effect" that their story requires: instant death capability for Drizzt, spellfire for Shandril, spellsong for Danilo. Summary: I would never use novels to deduct game statistics and game mechanics. It does not always work. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 09:37:32
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Danilo is mentioned in the Spellsinger PrC in Magic of Faerun, although not directly. And it's not hard to stuff a level of bard in there. Or swap wizard for bard entirely. The writeup mentioned is from "City of Splendors: Waterdeep", but that Wizard makes no sense.
Concerning elven blood - he does not have enough of it to make an impact on his race, thus his statistics. An elf mates with human, they have a half-elf. This kid mates with human, they have a half-elf. This half-elf mates with human, they have a human, albeit with elven blood only two generations back. See? That's what I mean. In Danilo's case there were even more generations, but elven blood is still in his veins.
Mmm... Real world analogy. Let's say a person of one race (probably white) marries a person of another. Any other. The kid is a mix. But in two or three generations there'd only be a few things to indicate that the ancestor was not white (or anything else you choose as an example). |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 13:40:39
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| And we know there was an "incident" in his early youth that displayed. A great amount of wizardly potential. This is what got Khelben watching over him to protect him from himself and probably sparked Khelben's future desire to mold Dan into a successor. I think there is much more wizardly stuff going on with Dan than can be "statted". |
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John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
713 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 15:43:12
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I had a hunch my suspicions weren't far off the mark. Anyways, here's my idea for a class spread for Danilo.
Dannilo Thann
CG Male Human Aristocrat 3/Bard 4/Wizard 5/Spellsinger 1
I would probably also give him a regional feat at first level to explain his capabilities to gain Spellsinger levels, which could also be useful for other characters.
Blood of the Elves [Regional]
Somewhere in your lineage, an elf is a direct ancestor of you, and their blood in prevalent in your life force.
Prerequisite: Human (any)
Effect: Your elven heritage is strong enough that you are considered an elf for the sake of permitting any prestige class that has the racial requirement of elf or half-elf.
Special: You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
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Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 19:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Not sure on 3E and 3.5, but back in the days of 2E, Danilo that was a "dual-classed" (well, triple, anyway) 3rd-level fighter, 9th-level wizard, and 13th level bard. I suspect that, when 3E did away with 1E and 2E dual-classing and introduced multiclassing for all races (although the way it is done, it looks more like 1E and 2E dual-classing, but that's another matter entirely) they could not get him the same kind of progression, as under 3E that would have made him a 22nd-level character, which would have been too powerful. So there was a need to make him a wizard (as in the novels), capable of memorizing and casting teleport (therefore 9th level), and a need to give him "spellsong". In 2E, the "spellsinger" was never a specific class, but would probably have been handled as a variant spellcasting system for the bard class. The Players' Options series did create a School of Song, which could have formed the basis for a spellsong-based spellcaster.
Well, using their conversion guide for 2e to 3e, that would have made him Fighter 1 / Wizard 3 / Bard 13 actually. It happened to two of the characters in my party at the time. Essentially, your highest level class stayed the same, all the rest were reduced by 1/3. |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 07:11:29
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| Keep in mind that bards in 2e learned wizard spells from spellbooks. There was no spontaneous casting or bard spell list back then. And since Danilo has always been portrayed as learning and casting spells from spellbooks, it follows that he be a wizard in 3.5 D&D (although I do agree he should have a few levels in bard or the virtuoso prc to represent his countersong abilities). I remember one of the novels stating that Danilo was far better with a spell than he was with a song or verse, or something to that effect. |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 13:06:46
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We know that Danilo memorises spells from spellbooks. We know that his magic is more powerful and versatile than that of Elaith Craulnober. We also know that he can employ spellsong and that he is considered a 'true' bard in the Realms. He has also displayed knowledge that in D&D terms would equate to 'bardic lore'.
I'm not sure I've seen him use anything like countersong or singing to inspire allies, as he has a magical sword that does that. I might be wrong, though, as he certainly shows all the other abilities of a bard.
He's not as good with a sword as either Elaith or Arilyn, but he's no slouch, either. He's a very good rider, classically educated and has a lot of other fields of knowledge that in D&D would fall under skills.
I know how to stat him in GURPS, but I think that the D&D system can't give a good representation. If you make sure to give him enough classes so that he can actually do everything he has to do, you probably make him so high level that he is better in a fight* than Arilyn or Elaith.
*The classic failure of the D&D system, best exemplified when Elminster becomes a better swordsman than Drizzt, simply because all his levels give him HP and Base Attack. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 16:46:03
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He DID use countersong once- he created a magical singing sword as Icelander mentioned, (using his own voice for the tune) and later used it against a harpy. I believe it was in the second book in that trilogy. I mainly remember it because the song it played was supposed to be a bit raunchy!!
Incidentally, El's levels may give him a better BAB than Drizzt, but his feats and such are all magic-based for the most part, and Drizzt trains EXCLUSIVELY with weapons and weapon-feats, so he is, in fact, a better swordsman. el would be passable, at best, even with the high attack. Drizzt would still outclass him because his feats allow him to do more with a weapon. Though if El got a fireball off, Drizzt would be in for a world of hurt.... |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 17:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
He DID use countersong once- he created a magical singing sword as Icelander mentioned, (using his own voice for the tune) and later used it against a harpy. I believe it was in the second book in that trilogy. I mainly remember it because the song it played was supposed to be a bit raunchy!!
He bought the sword. It's an example of the character having money, not an example of him actually using innate powers.
And the sword was usuable by others, as well. Elaith fought with it against harpies, for one thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Incidentally, El's levels may give him a better BAB than Drizzt, but his feats and such are all magic-based for the most part, and Drizzt trains EXCLUSIVELY with weapons and weapon-feats, so he is, in fact, a better swordsman. el would be passable, at best, even with the high attack. Drizzt would still outclass him because his feats allow him to do more with a weapon. Though if El got a fireball off, Drizzt would be in for a world of hurt....
Comparing the official D&D stats for both characters, Elminster would slaughter Drizzt in a sword duel without using any magic at all.
Elminstter attacks three times at +25/+20/+15. His damage is 1d8+6/19-20. He has AC 31 and 369 HP.
Drizzt attacks six times at +17/+12/+7/+2 and +16/+11 for a damage of 1d6+6/18-20 and 1d6+4/18-20. He has AC 23 and 123 HP.
Elminster has a 95% chance to hit with his first attack, a 90% with his second and a 60% with his third.
Drizzt has 35% chance to hit with his best attack, 30% with his second best, 10% for his third best and then hits only on a 20 with the rest.
In an average round, Drizzt does 5.775 points of damage while Elminster does 25.725. Not to mention that old El has three times the hit points, so he could actually afford to do much less. As it is, he'll kill Drizzt in four to five rounds while not being harmed all that much himself (probably less than 10% damage).
Sorry, by the game rules, Drizzt is a far inferior sworsman. And this is after accounting for his feats.
I'm not saying that this means that Drizzt should be an inferior swordsman. Just that D&D is a very poor system for modelling most Realms-characters or the intended feel of the world. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36892 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 00:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm not sure I've seen him use anything like countersong or singing to inspire allies, as he has a magical sword that does that. I might be wrong, though, as he certainly shows all the other abilities of a bard.
He inspired Arilyn in Elfshadow. It was when they were in the Marsh of Chelimber, and he sang the "Ballad of the Zhentish Raiders" while they were fighting lizard men and goblins. It's on page 102 of the book. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 02:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm not sure I've seen him use anything like countersong or singing to inspire allies, as he has a magical sword that does that. I might be wrong, though, as he certainly shows all the other abilities of a bard.
He inspired Arilyn in Elfshadow. It was when they were in the Marsh of Chelimber, and he sang the "Ballad of the Zhentish Raiders" while they were fighting lizard men and goblins. It's on page 102 of the book.
Oooh! Which does remind me. I've been trying to set that Ballad to music for some time. Need to get back to it. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 05:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
Keep in mind that bards in 2e learned wizard spells from spellbooks. There was no spontaneous casting or bard spell list back then. And since Danilo has always been portrayed as learning and casting spells from spellbooks, it follows that he be a wizard in 3.5 D&D (although I do agree he should have a few levels in bard or the virtuoso prc to represent his countersong abilities). I remember one of the novels stating that Danilo was far better with a spell than he was with a song or verse, or something to that effect.
Yep. Regarding Danilo, the fact that bards learned spells like wizards in 2e and then cast them innately like sorcerers in 3e, is a point that should be at the forefront regarding stat-ing him in 3e.
I think another thing that should be mentioned is that no D&D rules edition out there is at all perfect (ie-2e and its often silly race restrictions, and 3e w/their all classes gain levels on the same xp scale, as if a fighter is as smart as a wizard).
W/all that stated, I figure when stat-ing Danilo in 3e, at least at what level he was around in Elfshadow, would be that of having 3 Fighter lvls, for how good he was in battle; 1 Bard lvl as he's not a very good bard, but juss good enough to inspire Arilyn to another level in combat, akin to a 3e 'lvl-1 Bless spell' I guess; and then 4 or 5 levels in Wizard, as there's no evidence of him casting high-powered spells from his spellbook, rather using material components for those. |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 23:14:29
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Sorry to cast some thread necromancer, but I just found this thread as I was researching Danilo to help a friend's 3.5 character build. I too was trying to figure out how Danilo qualified for the Spellsinger PrC... it occurred to me that there is a pretty simple way to get a Bard that memorizes spells, it's what I do in my campaigns since I feel that Bard isn't a class that you should be able to start at level 1.
I use the Prestigous Classes, here though we want the Prestige Bardhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard
Based on 2e --> 3e conversions, Banilo should be 17th level (Bard 13 + Mage 9/3 + Fighter 3/3 = 13+3+1 = 17).
I would put him Aristocrat 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 10/Spellsinger 1
That would give Danilo the same spell casting abilities of his official 3.5 build, he's a bard who memorizes spells from a spellbook, and he has full Bard abilities, . We would still have to ignore the "cast arcane spells spontaneously" requirement from the Spellsinger PrC, but I think it works much better.
Alternately you could swap out some Prestige Bard levels for more Spellsinger levels if you thought that fit Danilo better.
As a sidebar - in my games I use all 3 prestige classes, as I don't think Bard, Ranger, or Paladin should be level 1 classes. You could argue about Ranger & Paladin, but Bard is something beyond just performing. |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2477 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2013 : 14:35:05
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| In "2.5e" (PO) terms this would be a specialist in Song Magic - a school of thaumaturgy, along with Alchemy, Artifice, Geometry and Wild Magic, as opposed to 8 schools of phylosophy and schools of effect like Elemental[...] and Force magic. PrC is a rather clumsy mechanism... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 00:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
He DID use countersong once- he created a magical singing sword as Icelander mentioned, (using his own voice for the tune) and later used it against a harpy. I believe it was in the second book in that trilogy. I mainly remember it because the song it played was supposed to be a bit raunchy!!
He bought the sword. It's an example of the character having money, not an example of him actually using innate powers.
And the sword was usuable by others, as well. Elaith fought with it against harpies, for one thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Incidentally, El's levels may give him a better BAB than Drizzt, but his feats and such are all magic-based for the most part, and Drizzt trains EXCLUSIVELY with weapons and weapon-feats, so he is, in fact, a better swordsman. el would be passable, at best, even with the high attack. Drizzt would still outclass him because his feats allow him to do more with a weapon. Though if El got a fireball off, Drizzt would be in for a world of hurt....
Comparing the official D&D stats for both characters, Elminster would slaughter Drizzt in a sword duel without using any magic at all.
Elminstter attacks three times at +25/+20/+15. His damage is 1d8+6/19-20. He has AC 31 and 369 HP.
Drizzt attacks six times at +17/+12/+7/+2 and +16/+11 for a damage of 1d6+6/18-20 and 1d6+4/18-20. He has AC 23 and 123 HP.
Elminster has a 95% chance to hit with his first attack, a 90% with his second and a 60% with his third.
Drizzt has 35% chance to hit with his best attack, 30% with his second best, 10% for his third best and then hits only on a 20 with the rest.
In an average round, Drizzt does 5.775 points of damage while Elminster does 25.725. Not to mention that old El has three times the hit points, so he could actually afford to do much less. As it is, he'll kill Drizzt in four to five rounds while not being harmed all that much himself (probably less than 10% damage).
Sorry, by the game rules, Drizzt is a far inferior sworsman. And this is after accounting for his feats.
I'm not saying that this means that Drizzt should be an inferior swordsman. Just that D&D is a very poor system for modelling most Realms-characters or the intended feel of the world.
Two things here: 1: Danilo BOUGHT the sword, but enchanted it himself. In fact he do so shortly before leaving on the adventure with Arilyn and Eliath that resulted in the incident with the harpy. (In fact, IIRC, he had just finished when he was asked to go.) And though it was the sword that was singing, it WAS his voice; the novel even described him joining along with it- as a "duet" with himself! (I remember the scene precisely because of that detail, which I found hilarious.)
2: Elminster might have "better" BAB (And gee, he's almost three times Drizzt's level! Duh, OF COURSE it's higher- but that doesn't excuse his lack of expertise with weapons.), but he also has NO dual-wielding capabilities (which gives an extra attack, AND better defense, AND more AOO's AND a lower penalty for attacking off-hand) Drizzt also specializes in blades- Elminster has no such weapon focus or specialization, and his single-hand attacks would only counter HALF of Drizzt's two-sword attacks. El's penalties fighting with a weapon rather than magic, and Drizzt's specialization with blades and two-weapon fighting, would even the odds, and given that even with his higher levels, MOST of El's levels are wizard-based (giving him only 4 HP per lvl to Drizzt's 10/lvl for all those fighter lvls), El's HP is not THAT much higher- and would average much lower, actually, if they were of similar lvl. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36892 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 01:07:56
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| Actually, the sword already sang when Danilo bought it. It had a nasal Turmish accent, as I recall, which Dan found distasteful. He had a spell he'd written to add music to a magical music box, and he used that to "teach" the sword to sing his songs. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:04:20
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| The spellsinging that Danilo does at the end of this book is beyond his ability. Rules allow for casting of spells beyond ones ability at great risk - such a hero, that Dan |
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Concerning Danilo Thann and the Spellsinger PrC
