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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 17:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, the Shalarin are not that important to me. The Sahuagin I would change with Kua-toa (sp?), the aquatic elves and tritons work both places. And no sharks of course. The fishing is not that much of a problem, it just changes the sort of fish available as far as I know. It will change the look of the coastal areas of course and make it easier to inhabit some of the islands. The animal life would become more like the Great Lakes. I dont know why I want this, it just seems right somehow.
One word - WHY? 
This is a make-believe fantasy world; in fact, it is tens of thousands of pretend worlds - everyone has their own version of Toril (including Ed).
Why would you have to make ANY changes at all, when this planet is not Earth? The Shalarin were never a favorite of mine (we already have an over-abundance of 'sea peoples'), but seriously, you can make ALL of the sea folk capable of existing in either fresh or salt water. AFAIK there is nothing like that here on Earth (except for certain creatures that can tolerate briney environments), but this is fantasy, after all. The same applies to animals - why not fresh-water sharks and other marine life? If you have a problem with that then just chalk it up to 'the will of the gods'.
Some races you may want to keep 'salt-only', just for fun - imagine Sahuagin chasing the adventurers, only to have to turn back when they get to the fresh water region (which is possible now if the try to chase them up the River Lis), or a Kraken that has to wear a magical jewel in its forehead in order to be able to survive in the fresh water sea.
Speaking of Mystara and sea-races, you have the wonderful neutral-good Kna; most Faeruninans would think they were huge Sahuagin and attack on-sight, and the whole misunderstanding could be the basis for a series of adventures. On Toril you also have the Ningyo (Oriental Mermaid) and the Lawful-neutral Hai Nu (which is similar in appearance to the kna, but closer to human-size).
I like the idea of a Yoda-like creature that lives in briney (coastal) swamps - could be some sort of Batarchi, or even a Batrachi/Sarrukh hybrid (or Batrachi the Sarrukh manage to manipulate using their abilities). Then again, having it something else entirely could be just as fun.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2010 17:24:04 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 20:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, the Shalarin are not that important to me. The Sahuagin I would change with Kua-toa (sp?), the aquatic elves and tritons work both places. And no sharks of course. The fishing is not that much of a problem, it just changes the sort of fish available as far as I know. It will change the look of the coastal areas of course and make it easier to inhabit some of the islands. The animal life would become more like the Great Lakes. I dont know why I want this, it just seems right somehow.
One word - WHY?
This is a make-believe fantasy world; in fact, it is tens of thousands of pretend worlds - everyone has their own version of Toril (including Ed).
Why would you have to make ANY changes at all, when this planet is not Earth? The Shalarin were never a favorite of mine (we already have an over-abundance of 'sea peoples'), but seriously, you can make ALL of the sea folk capable of existing in either fresh or salt water. AFAIK there is nothing like that here on Earth (except for certain creatures that can tolerate briney environments), but this is fantasy, after all. The same applies to animals - why not fresh-water sharks and other marine life? If you have a problem with that then just chalk it up to 'the will of the gods'.
Some races you may want to keep 'salt-only', just for fun - imagine Sahuagin chasing the adventurers, only to have to turn back when they get to the fresh water region (which is possible now if the try to chase them up the River Lis), or a Kraken that has to wear a magical jewel in its forehead in order to be able to survive in the fresh water sea.
Speaking of Mystara and sea-races, you have the wonderful neutral-good Kna; most Faeruninans would think they were huge Sahuagin and attack on-sight, and the whole misunderstanding could be the basis for a series of adventures. On Toril you also have the Ningyo (Oriental Mermaid) and the Lawful-neutral Hai Nu (which is similar in appearance to the kna, but closer to human-size).
I like the idea of a Yoda-like creature that lives in briney (coastal) swamps - could be some sort of Batarchi, or even a Batrachi/Sarrukh hybrid (or Batrachi the Sarrukh manage to manipulate using their abilities). Then again, having it something else entirely could be just as fun.
Why can be answered easily by the old “because I want to” but I cant make a really good explanation as to why I want it. It just sounds right to me and the image I get of the vegetation and life along the coast fits me better. But I am not that smart, and there might be some important fact that I have missed. Except the changes in the salt trade of course.
The sahuagin are enough of a problem for the Sword Coast (and quite frankly I find them a bit boring), removing them and the shark will make it easier to shove other species into the limelight. I could adapt them to freshwater as you say, but I see no good reason to keep them . And as you say there are several great underwater races in the Known World/Mystara that can be used.
The idea of an intelligent beluga has been in the back of my head for a few years and in this version of the Realms I can see them being a whole species of ancient intelligent fish whose knowledge of the Sea of Fallen Stars and many of the larger rivers are unequalled. Plus I like the image of the characters sitting in awe of a moustachioed fish that knows the solution to all their problems. I don’t want to tie them to any of the humanoid races or even to shape changed wizards. Animals in this version of the Realms will often have magical powers and intelligent, but I want the sturgeon to be something more, maybe a creatures tied weakly to the spirits or a sort of splintered spirit of the Sea of Fallen Stars itself, each fish containing a small part of the waters original Being.
I see them as the rather annoying characters in faerie tales that sends the hero looking after the bird that contains the egg that contains the fish that ate the key to open the gate that leads to the … You get the idea. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 11:40:03
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Eddie Cochran is always a good thing, especially when writing. I am a bit unsure about how I should do this. I am afraid that I might just be repeating things from source books. Maybe I should just mention the changes/incorporated ideas in each area? What do you think?
Archendale.
Today Archendale is, with the exception of the mountainous High Dale, the southernmost of the Dales. Its inhabitants are mostly of Chondathan decent and honours the day and night in the aspects of Lahander and Selune as the benefactors of trade and planning. The western war god Tempus has a minor temple here, fitting for the aggressive dalesmen. In addition the dalesmen honours the river and mountain spirits located in the glorious Archen Falls. This area in the northern part of Archendale is strong in ancient magic and it is said that its power flows both from springs located in Cormanthor and from the dark lands under the mountains. Sacrifices are made in the numerous falls and ponds, not just to the local spirits, but also to beings said by sages to be the eastern Kippya, the Mosslady (Chaunthea) and the River-queen, elsewhere known as Eldath. The worshipers of the Mosslady have a somewhat strained relationship with the ambitious priests of Chaunthea in her more southern form.
The Falls are a gathering place for seekers, faithful and mystics, not just from Archendale, but also from the other Dales and even lands further away. Many of these sneak in from the East Way as the Swords have increasingly taken to harass these pilgrims. They are attracted by stories both of great knowledge and magic to be had by contacting the spirits here. Animals, water lilies and various birds are all said to know secrets learned from both elves and their own ancient forms. The ferns are said to be whispering the names these spirits should be called by. Even the local waterweirds are treated with a great respect and minor fey are treated as if they were messengers from gods.
The conflict between those that adhere to the old ways and the more numerous inhabitants of Archenbridge and the southern dale has intensified as the dales loggers, in collaboration with the Swords and Sembian traders from Ordolin, has threatened the Archen Woods. This wood has been cut of from Cormanthor for centuries and although it still retains a large part of its power, it is now also darker and has a veil of magic and mist that makes it dreaded among most inhabitants of the area. The borders have always been used for gathering firewood and, being rich in deer, wood marmot and boar, for hunting. The interior has been avoided though, as gates and worshipping cites to ancient deities are said to be hidden among ancient tree roots, and the beasts are said to be able to blend into the night itself. Strange creatures, like vicious baboons, trolls and wind cats are often seen, and goblins are said to live in the Underdark, commanded by cursed Nagpa. There are of course stories of dragons and the forgotten one-eyed giants from the mountains. And as if that was not enough, recent news claim that vicious druids from the south have been seen in the area, along with tattooed witches, something that has not improved the forests reputation. These are said to be allied to more militant worshippers gathering along the falls and are even rumoured to be forming the local baboons into an army.
Archendale is ruled by four masked representatives known as Swords. The first Swords were three mercenaries from Murghom which swore that all they had earlier been would be given up when they took over the leadership of the dale. With them came also the symbol of irons power. The tradition followed by the lords of giving up both face and name has continued since. Recently the Black Sword was killed and although most people blame the Aghrateega orcs north of the East Way (the patrol was investigating the rumours of a new castle being built), there are those who blame the druids. The Swords body was not found.
Archendale is a merchant state and a strong guild of tradesmen and craftsmen form most of the dales policies. Most of these gather around the village of Archenbridge. The dale is especially known for its fine furniture, pottery and its engravers. Red clay from the Archen river is burned and decorated with images of Shemira birds and winter roses and the engravers have written whole family histories on dagger blades by the use of simple pictures and tiny signs. Most of the raw material has to be bought from outside the dale, much to the annoyance of many of Archendales citizens. These, led by the leaders of the Darkwater Brand, feel that the dale should increase the use of its own raw material, mine the mountains and log the forests. The more cautious inhabitants point out that there are numerous problems with this, and not just the reactions from the druids and the spring-worshippers, but also from the other dales. There are also the Mad Dwarves, a small group of dwarves that fanatically stick to the old days, using magic that causes landslides, rage in beat and uncontrollable weather whenever they feel threatened. The dwarves are said to still use stone tools and some even claim that they are accompanied by trained aurumvorax' that feed on iron and steel.
The Darkwater Brand hired a man by the name of Shelcar Waterborn to find adventurers and mercenaries willing to go into the mountains from Cormyr and it is said that there has been several raids already. Unfortunately there are also rumours of them finding much more trouble than they were prepared for. In a hidden valley they found both what they believed to be a roc nest and signs of ancient giant dwellings. Only two survived, telling of angry giants coming down from the skies, killing and eating their companions whilst screaming something about the birds being poisoned and them starving. According to Rhauntides of Deepingdale the giants, living in an ancient cloud castle most of the time, came to the Thunder Peaks from an unknown home centuries ago, riding giant eagles that were able to fly through the dimensions via a huge portal located in the valley. The giants has used the worlds on the other side as a hunting reserve and has therefore not had much affect on the mountains. Unfortunately it seems like an overeager Harper named Jialliir Chaoundar closed the gate recently,, believing it to be a newly formed menace. The birds are now dying through lack of both food and magic, and the giants are looking for someone to blame. Unfortunately the intruding adventurers killed carried seals known by the giants to belong in Archendale.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 21:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also have it where anyone who can practice magic has a bit of non-human blood somewhere in their past, but that is just a personal preference.
I have that too, I added an age in the past when Toril was a battlefield of extraplanar powers, being the most important Prime world. Then gods kicked the outsiders out, but unique traces remained in the blood of various human subgroups.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Cormyr is the thing I really want to do and something of a carrot to keep my working on the geographical part. I want to see how much of Karameikos I can sneak into it without destroying it completely.
Recently I tried to sneak Karameikos (beside the Five Shires, already for Lurien). It seemed too ''easterly'', it ended up northwest of Estagund, which is my historical analogue of the Eastern Roman Empire/Thyathis. Now that area is far from canon.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 23:18:14
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Hmmmmm... Faerun with the known World (Mystara) glued to the bottom...
Sounds... interesting....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 09:23:31
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I use the Five Shires for the hin of the Sunset Vale region. Its the breadbasket of the region and is pretty well-inhabited, but without a strong government or rulers except for an abbey. That doesn't sit that well with me, I don't have much belief in humanities ability to not enforce (or need)some sort of restrictive system, so halflings are a better fit. And with their more peaceful natures it doesn't cause to many waves where canon is concerned. Geographically it isn't that hard to fit them together and Darkhold serves as a perfect substitute for the Black Eagles barony. And it is quite obvious that that is of high priority for me isn't it ? I did this years ago and I remember debating with myself whether I should include the piratical activity, but as that didn't fit to well with the river people I already included in the Chionthar region I put that part in Luiren instead.
In addition they make great allies for my old favourites the gnomes of Trielta.
Karameikos and Cormyr has been mixed in my campaign for years. Remember that there was no internet and limited information on the country before the Volo guide. And as we owned the Karameikos book and liked it it became logical to steal from it.
The Cormyrean nobility becomes descendants of Chondathans, the traladarans the old populace that later became of the tethen culture, Treshold became Arabel, Marsember became Specularum. The B-series fits nicely in the Goblin marshes and mountains and the talfir are the forefathers of the Hutaaka. Aleena works as a substitute for the militant parts of Alusair. In general the Karameikos book is to good a resource (as are several of the other gazetteers) for me to not steal from them.
By now the two are so entwined that I generally try not to get involved in Cormyr discussions here, I just end up looking confused.
But as long as I resist the temptation to include heavily armed poultry the Realms at least looks somewhat recognisable. The question is how long can I refuse that urge?
Well, of to work again. I will just mention though, that because of the US Open it will be a bit slower progress for the next couple of weeks. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 12:40:20
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But there is always some Otis Redding and Edgar Winter to vary with enormous amounts of tennis.
Battledale.
Battledale is , despite its name, a quiet and pastoral region located within the woods and combines agriculture and wildlands in ways that satisfies almost all. This open Dale stretches out over the fields and meadows north of Deepingdale. It is said to be the richest of the Dales, much because of the rich crops harvested by the predominantly farming population. Flax is grown is grown by almost every farmer along the beautiful Ashaba and the making of linen is an important source of income for the dalesmen. The wool produced by the sheep herders is of course also collected, but is usually handled by the spinners of Deepingdale. In addition, apples, cherry’s, melons, lettuce cabbage and grain is traded to the Sembians via Tasseldale. This is mixed with large tracts of rhododendron trees, willows and miliiran that make the habitat for the Ashabafisher and Bastet Hummingbirds. The Ashaba lake is rich in both fish and dangers and is known for the herds of wild Bhaera ponies that roam the marshy shores and islets of the shallows. These are said to be guarded by horse spirits that will haunt anyone that threatens the herds as a whole. A limited hunting and even capturing is allowed though.
Many claim that the blood spilled in the earth trough the centuries has made the soil of Battledale powerful and that in places the memories of the dead strengthen the plant life. There has been claims from grumbling farmers in Cormyr and Sembia that the crops are also cursed or diseased by the dead, but this has never been proven.
Outside of farming the most common craft in the Dale is pottery done with the blue clay from the Ashaba. Because of the great threat from the Bunyips of the river and lake the gathering of clay is usually done in the early spring when the giant predators travel down to the Sea of Fallen stars to breed and hunt the Kua-toa of the Selgaunt Bay. The time for starting is usually decided by prayers and sacrifices done at the Stone of Whaetta, a holy spot dedicated to Ashaba herself and located near the legendary gate of Chezechra. The gate, found among the thick growth of rhododendrons gathering along most of the riverbanks is said to be in the form of a single Azure flower in one of the trees and draws those who know the right command into the centre of the plant itself where a kingdom is found that harvests the nectar of giant bees in a world of pure gold. From here it is said that one can travel through flowers in several locations, both in this world and others, but that the name of the flower one wants to leave through needs to be known.
The people of the dale are open and at the same time cautious of all visitors at the same time. An ogre or satyr showing signs of peace will be welcomed just as much as a traveller from the Moonsea or Cormyr. Battledale has no real centre and even the village of Essembra is more of a way stop built around the small mote castle built by Holcar the Amphisbaene, one of the Mantled Kings lieutenants and known servant of the Battlelord. He tried to rebuilt his lords realm, but ended up being cursed along with his entire family. Most of the other dalesmen live in fortified farms formed around a minor shrine to local spirits that are revered to various degrees. Others build small manors or holdings where they see themselves as minor nobles. Many of these are sages or minor wizards seeking signs of lost magic's or seeking contact with some of Cormanthors residents. Known among these are Thepell of the Red Mantle a sage from Derlusk that is said to be among the most knowledgeable people in Faerun where intelligent rodents are concerned and Pahiira Mawella of the Seven Mates, a poet and flute player that knows at least three of the songs of Myth Drannor and one said to be from Netheril.
It should be noted though, that because of the recent fighting with the mercenaries of Lashan the people are weary of most armed Vilhoners met. The situation has not been improved by the fact that the War Chancellor recently hired a group of twenty turmishan and Chondathans to strengthen his depleted forces. Many whisper that several have been seen with Lashan earlier. Among them are the turmish bowmen Ambousa and Eleza, both of them able to hit the smallest target with a horse bow and reputed to know spells that can turn arrows into messenger birds and make tracks tell the stories of passing. Others are the heavily armed Aolaedsar, said to be a Sasani horseman that once rode with Gondegal, and the chondathan siblings Shaebar and Dorethar Ambouil, known to have alone routed a group of bugbears raiding out of the Dun hills last spring. Duthacar Imbraiel and Estabar, travelling with his tame owlbear Gatha, are known to be more brigands than heroes. The War Chancellor might not trust these mercenaries, but they are needed, not just because of the constant troubles from the ghost holds and the burial fields of the elven dead in the Rauvedon hills, which are no longer controlled, but also because of the brewing troubles with Archendale.
The latest council of the Dales managed to stop the Arhenfolk for a time, but it seems like some of the troubles from Archen woods are coming northwards with druids and rangers gathering with plans of reforming the Circle of Stars. This Druidic group once managed a tree-gate that let travellers move between the Chondalwoods and Cormanthor, but with the forests diminishing and the gate not really being of much danger, the druids left it for more pressing matters. The decision to now reform the circle might be a part of the plans made by the southern druids to chastise the Archenfolk in ways seldom seen in the Dales. Forming trolls and awakening beasts held in stasis might be among their choices. Some claim that there have been murders done among the various wandering priests and seers of The Forest Lord in his many forms and within the cults of Chaunthea. The centaurs have summoned their mists and the mongrelmen of the Dun Hills have drawn underground. Worried by this, Amassi Greencloth, a servant of the Mossmother, has with the help of a couple of nervous Harpers, started looking for Chezechra's gate in an attempt to locate the wandering spirit of Hexagii, that they have been told is the only one able to quiet things down. It wont be easy as this sap spirit has been known to whimsically wander the planes for years.
All of these rumours and emerging threats has lead many of the minor knights and self proclaimed nobles living outside the Belt to start hiring mercenaries. With the exception of Lashans invasion the Dale has been peaceful for a long time now, and they intend to keep it that way.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 19:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmmm... Faerun with the known World (Mystara) glued to the bottom...
Sounds... interesting....
Really, is the rest of the Known World worthy to be glued on?
I've only considered the Five Shires, a bit about the Radiance from Glantri for Halruaa, Ylaruam to my Sand Throne subcontinent that includes Calimshan, Land of Fate, Katapesh etc.), bits of Karameikos (not including that awful-looking medieval stuff), and some of the monsters, cool ones, e.g. the diaboli.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Even today the Talfir, an early tethen urban culture, is known as the people who wrote and thereby stole a part of the worlds power. It is told that these acts almost stopped the turning of time and the world by trapping it in parchment ...
That is a fantastic mystery/myth. Years ago when I first got Eberron, I placed their house Phiarlan (of the Mark of Shadow) among the wandering Talfiric tribes, sort of opposite to Selune's Gurs. Then inspired by Madvillain's song Shadows of Tomorrow (underground hip hop) I made them perform shadowy bardic rituals where important events from their history are recreated by illusions, sometimes even becoming ''alive''.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I use the Five Shires for the hin of the Sunset Vale region. Its the breadbasket of the region and is pretty well-inhabited, but without a strong government or rulers except for an abbey. That doesn't sit that well with me, I don't have much belief in humanities ability to not enforce (or need)some sort of restrictive system, so halflings are a better fit. And with their more peaceful natures it doesn't cause to many waves where canon is concerned. Geographically it isn't that hard to fit them together and Darkhold serves as a perfect substitute for the Black Eagles barony. And it is quite obvious that that is of high priority for me isn't it? I did this years ago and I remember debating with myself whether I should include the piratical activity, but as that didn't fit to well with the river people I already included in the Chionthar region I put that part in Luiren instead.
That works well too, even better, tough more or less I accepted Lurien being that far south. I already did a lot of things with Chionthar too, but alternatively it could be like the Vales of Anduin, from where hobbits migrated. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 21:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmmm... Faerun with the known World (Mystara) glued to the bottom...
Sounds... interesting....
Really, is the rest of the Known World worthy to be glued on?
I've only considered the Five Shires, a bit about the Radiance from Glantri for Halruaa, Ylaruam to my Sand Throne subcontinent that includes Calimshan, Land of Fate, Katapesh etc.), bits of Karameikos (not including that awful-looking medieval stuff), and some of the monsters, cool ones, e.g. the diaboli.
The rest of the world? Lets see.
The Athruagin clans would have to be reworked, but can easily be plundered for ideas.
Dwarves of Rockhome is fantastic; any dwarf realm could work. I am debating using the Great Rift, but there are to few giants to my liking in that area.
Elves of Alfheim. This one is probably a problem if you are very into elven canon, I am not. But it is more inspiration than something that can be incorporated in place of Evermeet or Cormathor.
Emirates of Ylarum. I like this one. If you take out the religious parts it can be used in any desert area; I was contemplating using much of it in Anauroch, after doing some “unearthing” of course.
Five Shires; we have already looked at that one. Dawn of the Emperor, a bit hit and miss, and not easily fitted in, but can be used as a faraway country or as something to plunder ideas from when detailing or reworking the lands south of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Golden Khan of Ethengar; can be used to expand on or change the Hordelands or one of the other nomad areas.
Ierendi; this one is a bit silly, but ideas can be taken for festivals, mad rulers and minor territories with eccentric rulers.
Northern Reaches; can be used both in the North and and maybein the Vaasa/Damara region; there are some good political ideas in it, but nothing that original.
Orcs of Thar one of the two I don’t own. Known to be silly.
Principaleties of Glantri. Halruaa or Netheril as it once was. I like it, but its not really a geographical work.
Republic of Darokin. The Western Heartlands and the Dragon coast. Lots of rules for trade. Shadow Elves. That’s the other one I don’t own.
Minrothad Guilds; Sembia would be a good idea.
I cant see any of the gazetteers (except for Five Shires for logical reasons) being tagged directly on, but all of them can be plundered and adapted.
Oh there are a huge amount of great monsters I have included. Any one noticed the Nagpa until now? I thought about the sacrilege of having them replace the Mindflayers. I like flayers, but I prefer them to be visitors from other dimensions not permanent dwellers. The horse spirits I mentioned could be Chevalls.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Even today the Talfir, an early tethen urban culture, is known as the people who wrote and thereby stole a part of the worlds power. It is told that these acts almost stopped the turning of time and the world by trapping it in parchment ...
Originally posted by Quale
That is a fantastic mystery/myth. Years ago when I first got Eberron, I placed their house Phiarlan (of the Mark of Shadow) among the wandering Talfiric tribes, sort of opposite to Selune's Gurs. Then inspired by Madvillain's song Shadows of Tomorrow (underground hip hop) I made them perform shadowy bardic rituals where important events from their history are recreated by illusions, sometimes even becoming ''alive''.
That sounds a lot like the ideas I have used for the Gur and the River people. There are also the dancers of Turmish I have mentioned. These are from Eds Polyhedron articles and recreate history in the way you mention.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I use the Five Shires for the hin of the Sunset Vale region. Its the breadbasket of the region and is pretty well-inhabited, but without a strong government or rulers except for an abbey. That doesn't sit that well with me, I don't have much belief in humanities ability to not enforce (or need)some sort of restrictive system, so halflings are a better fit. And with their more peaceful natures it doesn't cause to many waves where canon is concerned. Geographically it isn't that hard to fit them together and Darkhold serves as a perfect substitute for the Black Eagles barony. And it is quite obvious that that is of high priority for me isn't it? I did this years ago and I remember debating with myself whether I should include the piratical activity, but as that didn't fit to well with the river people I already included in the Chionthar region I put that part in Luiren instead.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That works well too, even better, tough more or less I accepted Lurien being that far south. I already did a lot of things with Chionthar too, but alternatively it could be like the Vales of Anduin, from where hobbits migrated.[/quote]
Luiren is in many ways the logical choice, but the problem is that I have had one campaign move to the South in all these years and I want to use the Five Shires, so its more practical for me to keep them further north. But when using the Shires with Luiren, what do you do with the border threat as there are no logical substitute for the Black Eagle in the area; do you drop the ideas or do you invent another threats?
PS I hate editing within posts and I have absolutely no idea why text all of a sudden becomes blue and why it changes size for no reason, so excuse me if it happens.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 01:15:58
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Black Eagle? I'm drawing a blank here. 
What I was actually thinking was to replace the Shining South with the Known World region, but mirror-image it, so the two massive empires wound-up to the south and west of Faerun.
If I keep Chult at all it would be an island north of katashaka/Nyambe. Calimshan would move into the 'Shining lands' region (I did a mock-up of that in another thread). I'd probably lose most of the stuff on the Chultan penninsula, although I might keep the Shaar for one of Mystara's barbarian groups (Emirates of Ylarum?)
Rockholme would then blend with the Great Rift, Luiren with the Five Shires, Glantri with Halruaa, ect...
If you were going to use the Orcs of Thar at all, keep them in Thar, naturally. 
The albino Drow of Mystara work well as a replacement for FR's - they could even be a seperate, southern 'ethnicity'. Considering Ed's Drow were white, it works for me. Maybe move Dambrath down to Akota in Zakhara (since that region is supposedly run by Drow anyway).
Not sure if I'd bother with Alfheim, and Northern Reaches I'd just pick-over for Rauthym.
Oh, and using all the 'Red Steel' crap from the campaign region of the same name as a substitute for 4eFR's Plaguescars might be an interesting way to go, if you were so inclined. Don't use the rest if the material, though - WAY too silly (Although I had thought about importing 'Ninja Tortles' into K-T, until my common-sense kicked back in).
Hutakans! - I have them as a survivor-state of that early Gnoll empire (Urg-something - sorry, not near my sources). They were the first people to settle in the fertile Raurin basin and began worship of Aoskar. AS their culture fell into decline they ran afoul of the migrating Mujhari peoples coming up from Zakhara through the Utter East, and were chased and scattered, thus sealing their fate (becoming a barbaric, fractured people living throughout the Realms). The Mujhari settled in the region, founding their 1st city around an ancient Hutakan temple to Aoskar they had unearthed. They called themselves 'Ima-Skari', after their leader Ima - It means 'Children of Ima' in Rashoum (sp?) For the story of what happened to that ill-fated first settlement (and why Imaskari don't trust the Gods) you would have to refer to Rip Van Wormer's most excellent Imaskari/Sigil thoery.
Like the Imaskari, the Hutakans before them became the masters of Portal-magic (naturally), which is why their is evidence of their culture (and enclaves) on several other worlds (like Mystara).
Nagpa are also very cool, but I hadn't figured out where to place them yet. Obviously another race related to the Aeriee, but they need to be from someplace far away, like Osse, I'm thinking. Not sure though, because I have a whole dream-magic theme going on there, and placed the Diaboli there as well. The southern Jungles (Malatra) of K-T might work: Depends though - I have some major serpent-races stuff going on there, as well as Cat-folk. Perhaps in K-T proper - many of those Mystaran creatures have a somewhat oriental flavor to them and work well there. They'd just be another type of Hengyokai.
I also considered a land of intelligent animals, a'la 'Narnia', on that rather large island at the end of the (western) Zakharan Island chain. A place with talking bears, amongst other things - the nagpa could work their, but it might be a bit silly for FR. (I had named that Island Nobanion's Isle, BTW, on some of my early maps, just for that reason).
@Jorkens: Sorry for the side-chatter - still enjoying everything you are posting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2010 01:23:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 02:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Black Eagle? I'm drawing a blank here.
He refers to, I'm thinking, the Black Eagle Barony that proves so annoying to Luiren and the Barony's own parent nation, Karameikos. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 03:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Black Eagle? I'm drawing a blank here.
He refers to, I'm thinking, the Black Eagle Barony that proves so annoying to Luiren and the Barony's own parent nation, Karameikos.
Ah, the Black Eagle Barony. The only place in the entire D&D multiverse where "Laws change from day to day, with his [the Duke's] whims; it may be legal to commit murder one day, illegal to eat the next."
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 Sep 2010 03:08:36 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 10:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Black Eagle? I'm drawing a blank here.
He refers to, I'm thinking, the Black Eagle Barony that proves so annoying to Luiren and the Barony's own parent nation, Karameikos.
Ah, the Black Eagle Barony. The only place in the entire D&D multiverse where "Laws change from day to day, with his [the Duke's] whims; it may be legal to commit murder one day, illegal to eat the next."
Yep. The Black Eagle and the always popular Baron Ludwig von Hendriks
And of course the employer of the most sinister of all wizards Bargle. He killed Aleena, what could be worse? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 11:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Black Eagle? I'm drawing a blank here.
What I was actually thinking was to replace the Shining South with the Known World region, but mirror-image it, so the two massive empires wound-up to the south and west of Faerun.
If I keep Chult at all it would be an island north of katashaka/Nyambe. Calimshan would move into the 'Shining lands' region (I did a mock-up of that in another thread). I'd probably lose most of the stuff on the Chultan penninsula, although I might keep the Shaar for one of Mystara's barbarian groups (Emirates of Ylarum?)
Rockholme would then blend with the Great Rift, Luiren with the Five Shires, Glantri with Halruaa, ect...
If you were going to use the Orcs of Thar at all, keep them in Thar, naturally.
The albino Drow of Mystara work well as a replacement for FR's - they could even be a seperate, southern 'ethnicity'. Considering Ed's Drow were white, it works for me. Maybe move Dambrath down to Akota in Zakhara (since that region is supposedly run by Drow anyway).
Not sure if I'd bother with Alfheim, and Northern Reaches I'd just pick-over for Rauthym.
This works nicely and it would be a great version, but there is so much with the Shining South I like already, so with the exception of Halruaa I would rather just develop them from the information in the Shining South. The 2nd ed. book, that is; the 3ed. book was in my opinion one of the best books published for that edition and one of the few I actually still look at, but it doesn't fit the area as I see it, so it has little effect on "my" Realms.
I was thinking about using the original idea of the albino drow but I cant make up my mind about it. Maybe just the ones under Shadowdale.
quote:
Oh, and using all the 'Red Steel' crap from the campaign region of the same name as a substitute for 4eFR's Plaguescars might be an interesting way to go, if you were so inclined. Don't use the rest if the material, though - WAY too silly (Although I had thought about importing 'Ninja Tortles' into K-T, until my common-sense kicked back in).
There are a few good ideas in the Red Steel box and I actually like the races. The tortles ends up more like the wizard in Dean Fosters Spellsinger though.
quote:
Hutakans! - I have them as a survivor-state of that early Gnoll empire (Urg-something - sorry, not near my sources). They were the first people to settle in the fertile Raurin basin and began worship of Aoskar. AS their culture fell into decline they ran afoul of the migrating Mujhari peoples coming up from Zakhara through the Utter East, and were chased and scattered, thus sealing their fate (becoming a barbaric, fractured people living throughout the Realms). The Mujhari settled in the region, founding their 1st city around an ancient Hutakan temple to Aoskar they had unearthed. They called themselves 'Ima-Skari', after their leader Ima - It means 'Children of Ima' in Rashoum (sp?) For the story of what happened to that ill-fated first settlement (and why Imaskari don't trust the Gods) you would have to refer to Rip Van Wormer's most excellent Imaskari/Sigil thoery.
Like the Imaskari, the Hutakans before them became the masters of Portal-magic (naturally), which is why their is evidence of their culture (and enclaves) on several other worlds (like Mystara).
Nagpa are also very cool, but I hadn't figured out where to place them yet. Obviously another race related to the Aeriee, but they need to be from someplace far away, like Osse, I'm thinking. Not sure though, because I have a whole dream-magic theme going on there, and placed the Diaboli there as well. The southern Jungles (Malatra) of K-T might work: Depends though - I have some major serpent-races stuff going on there, as well as Cat-folk. Perhaps in K-T proper - many of those Mystaran creatures have a somewhat oriental flavor to them and work well there. They'd just be another type of Hengyokai.
I also considered a land of intelligent animals, a'la 'Narnia', on that rather large island at the end of the (western) Zakharan Island chain. A place with talking bears, amongst other things - the nagpa could work their, but it might be a bit silly for FR. (I had named that Island Nobanion's Isle, BTW, on some of my early maps, just for that reason).
@Jorkens: Sorry for the side-chatter - still enjoying everything you are posting.
As I said there is no side chatter here, just talking loosely about ideas and adaptations. Which is the point of this thread in the first place. Carry on commenting (oh, no no, dont think about those movies).
The reason I thought about using the Hutakaans as Talfirs is simply because I want to run B10 in the north of Cormyr and with Talfirs being tethens in my Realms and the Traladarans being a tethen group it is the most logical choice. Making them masters of portal magic doesn't work that well with B10 as the point is them dying in isolation, but maybe they were earlier masters that lost the secrets when the rebel Albarii (who the Talfir broke of from) in alliance with the Espharii, Priapii and Scarnaii under Tarinae Ambhelarra and Tarinae Bhegaiir destroyed the libraries and schools.
As for intelligent animals. It is a logical homeland for the intelligent wombats(one of my favourite "silly" pieces of Realmslore). I see intelligent animals more as something that can be met anywhere in the Realms as the magic can change or posses any sort of creature. Some are spirits and some are true animals. Others might come through portals. About 90% of a species is of normal intelligence, but the rest is at least of human intelligence. Sometimes it is inheritable, sometimes it is a fluke and sometimes it is a result of surroundings that disappear when the animal leaves the area.
I will keep the original idea of the Nagpas being a sort of cursed wizard. I haven't decided which wizardly realm they are tied to , but they are definitely an underground species. As I planned to reduce the role of the Phaerim (who are more of a threat coming through portals) and the beholders (more solitary) Anauroch would be a logical choice for me. They could fit nicely as a part of a redone Kara-Tur, but as with many other Known World creatures I want to use them in adventures, so Faerun is therefore a better choise. I thought about Skeksis lore, but most likely I will leave that idea. The Dark Crystal is along with The Flight of Dragons and Bakshis Lord of the Rings my favourite fantasy movie, but I cant really see it fit the Realms that well.
I am up to my ears in Daggerdale notes at the moment and I doubt that I can sort it out during the day, but we will see. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 19:12:15
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I don't like putting 'everything but the kitchen sink' into Faerun-proper, simply because it seems a bit unrealistic to me.
If you keep Ed's original Realms concept, and have portals everywhere to everywhere, then getting around becomes so much easier (which is why, I think, Ed did that - BOY does that save on those somewhat-boring cross-country trek sessions).
For instance, there is a canon portal (which I detailed in my CK article) that goes from K-T to the SoFS, so if you want to use the Nagpas, you could say they are a cursed group of Wujen who have fled Shou Lung. Just because a certain creature comes from 'far off' doesn't mean a group of them couldn't cause problems close-by - just look at the Tlincallis (Scorpionmen). It also allows you to bring eastern magic into the Realms (they could be teaching humans), or conversely, it gives the Nagpas some unique individuality.
Not saying that is the correct way to run things - just pointing-out that distance means little on a fantasy world filled with magic. Anything you want your parties to encounter they WILL encounter, if you want them to. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2010 20:29:58 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 19:24:57
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I agree with the kitchen sink comment, but as long as you drop some of the standard creatures at the same time it works. There are plenty of creatures I have little use for and which doesn't exactly make my imagination spark, so I might as well change them with something I like. For me the nagpas are a substitute for "native" Mindflayers. And as you say, anything goes in a world of gates, so anything that is written out can just as easily be put back. Another solution is to just call it a magical experiment or a spirit form. And when you are working with alternate and parallel dimensions and worlds you can say the same about everything. Nothing is better than limitless possibilities. The challenge is finding the balance between the infinite and the practical of course.
On the other hand I love those long cross country journeys. Some of my best adventures has been along trade routs and in the wilderness. Sea voyages on the other hand, I never really got a handle on.
But that made me wonder; are there any of the "standard" creatures (or elements for that matter) of the Realms that you have removed from your game?
And now back to writing Daggerdale. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 21:08:25
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I agree, especially where most aberrations are concerned - I prefer them as an other-worldy threat, brought-in by misguided Mages practicing psuedo-natural arcana. (It just works better, to me, if the creatures from the Far Realms need some sort of help from the Prime Material side, else they can't get through).
I've put quite a lot of thought into this, lately, only because I am building my own setting and want every option open for people who use it. I don't really care for aberrations myself, but I need to work them into the setting, in a logical and concise manner, regardless of my own preferences. I have actually looked to Eberron for inspiration in this regard.
The way I see it going is one race of aberrations, with many, MANY 'Paths' (a'la 4e), or even something similar to PrCs. The creatures will evolve from a tadpole-like form (similar to the Illithid's), but then develop differently depending upon its strengths and preferences. The basic shape will be a single-eyed, squid-like creature, and can learn to levitate (like a Beholder), or to 'ride' someone by eating their head and bonding with the torso (a very gross Mindflayer). They could even choose to remain within the 'briney pool' and become an Aboleth-like monstrosity (replacing the Elder Brain in lore), with smallish tendrils around the mouth (the tendrils/tentacles is a running theme through all my aberrations - my Beholder-variant will look like an elongated Eye tyrant with the 'stalks' on the bottom).
In that way, I have a unified group, despite the huge physical differences, and can still allow players to use any iteration of the D&D rules with my setting (or non-D&D, as the case may be). They simply apply the rules of the similar core creature to my adapted version. Even stuff like Grell and Tentamorts will all be covered.
By working-in this lore from the very beginning, I can use parts of it for other aspects of the setting that need explaining. For instance, different races can NOT inter-breed with each other. However, if they contain even the slightest amount of aberration-blood (haven't named the group yet) they CAN breed with another race; that blood adapts and allows things like grafts and cross-breeds. The fact that those creatures were prevalent in prehistoric times means that just about anyone can possibly have a bit of this 'strange blood'. Large amounts of it infused into a living creature can even cause them to become Shifters, or Dopplegangers.
I am trying to approach the setting from a scientific point of view, and would rather have some sort of weird, 'alien' blood responsible for the oddities, rather then magic. I never liked that most races can inter-breed on a D&D world, and now they can't unless they have some of this special, morphic blood in them (which I, or a DM, can place anywhere we need it).
Another neat thing will be vampirism as a type of disease, rather then a curse. Not sure entirely how I am going to go with it, but there will be at least two kinds of vamps with lots of skills and Feats that will make each opponent completely different (you can have everything from a feral, blood-drinker to a suave seducer of victims, draining them of energy).
Lycanthropy IS considered a curse, Buuut.. it comes from the Elves! Elves can naturally take the shape of one animal (in my world) like the Lythari of FR, and this will somehow be 'passed on' to humans as a curse/infection (not sure about the details of this yet either - it could require a bit of that aberration blood I was talking about for the mutation to take hold). I'm picturing different 'warrior brotherhoods' (and sisterhoods) based around different animals for the Sylvan Elves, to round-out this piece of lore. None of the three groups of 'Elves' are Tolkienesque, and they do not like humans, or each other, or most anyone else for that matter.
Hope this is at least somewhat in-topic - not specifically FR, but world-building in general. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2010 14:49:42 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 21:57:56
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It is actually very interesting, as we are going about this in the exact opposite ways. I want to remove myself as much as possible from a scientific or "outside looking in" view. Whereas you want it to be scientifically feasible after the rules you set up, my basis is in the idea that reality can not be explained or known by those affected or living in it when magic is involved. And at the same time we end up with many of the same ideas and conclusions. Just keep up the comments.
The two species you mention are great examples of this. As I am working on Daggerdale there is the story of Merrydale and that made me think about vampires. Which I hate. The last thing I want is a romantic view on them here; they are in the world to kill and be killed as the sadistic predators they are. I don't want them to be undead, there are enough of these already, so I will make them into blood-draining spirits. That is spirits that are not tied to this world or the elements of reality and because of this they need to be sustained by another source. They draw nothing from the land itself or from the powers of magic, they have to draw it from the mixture of reality and magic that blood and life is a combination of. With this they can for a time take a physical form, which can be killed. But as the alternative is a form of non-existence the risk is one taken by all vampires.
The Lycanthropes I cant really decide about. I prefer them as shape changers, some are cursed and some are magical cross-breeds or the descendants of spirit-creatures that changed shape to hunt. I cant see all of the creatures called lychanthropes in the D&D systems as belonging to the same family or group of beings. They are just various sorts of chapechangers.I don't like the diseased bite part. But maybe some of them have learned magical curses from Malar that gives them the ability to turn others into his servants. I will have to think a bit more about these. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 00:34:09
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On the topic of using The Five Shires for Luiren, I once asked Ed about that. His reply:
quote:
Sure. Superimpose the Luiren cities and government structure, shift places "just a little" to make room for them, and, yes, it works admirably for that. Almost as if someone designed it that way. ;}
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Sep 2010 00:34:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 09:26:45
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I also prefer the (pseudo)scientific take, mind flayers are are all right, I see them as purposefully created by the Far Realm to infiltrate the Prime, that's why they are so into experiments with other races, they still have trouble adapting.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But that made me wonder; are there any of the "standard" creatures (or elements for that matter) of the Realms that you have removed from your game?
loxos (simply dislike them, not every animal should have a humanoid version, what's next giraffes)
dragons (they are too numerous, a few per continent seems better, increases the ''awe effect'', the rest are drakes)
demihuman subraces (just different cultures)
sarrukh (kept the more mysterious term ''sauroid creator race'', they existed millions of years ago, not thirty thousand, only a few awakened after the end of the last ice age)
orcs (some of them, they are everywhere, in the northeast replaced them with sranc from Earwa)
ondonti
dinosaurs (in Chult it's ok, in Stonelands or Almorel feels wrong)
monkey spiders
xavers
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The rest of the world? Lets see.
I cant see any of the gazetteers (except for Five Shires for logical reasons) being tagged directly on, but all of them can be plundered and adapted.
The Athruagin clans would have to be reworked, but can easily be plundered for ideas.
yea, it's better to leave out most of the content, just adapt ideas that are exceptional, parts of Athruagin could work for Anchorome
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Dwarves of Rockhome is fantastic; any dwarf realm could work. I am debating using the Great Rift, but there are to few giants to my liking in that area.
I don't have that one, the Great Rift is already detailed enough, and I've already included some of Mror Holds from Eberron, Too few giants? You have Black Ash Giants and Fuirgar near Raurin.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Elves of Alfheim. This one is probably a problem if you are very into elven canon, I am not. But it is more inspiration than something that can be incorporated in place of Evermeet or Cormathor.
You're right, nothing special about Alfheim.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Emirates of Ylarum. I like this one. If you take out the religious parts it can be used in any desert area; I was contemplating using much of it in Anauroch, after doing some “unearthing” of course.
This one is better, doesn't stand out among other similar fantasy cultures though, only seemed interesting cause of the Nithians, adapted to Zakhara as another group of Azlanti survivors.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Dawn of the Emperor, a bit hit and miss, and not easily fitted in, but can be used as a faraway country or as something to plunder ideas from when detailing or reworking the lands south of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Imo only the Byzantian elements from Thyathis are worth taking.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Northern Reaches; can be used both in the North and and maybein the Vaasa/Damara region; there are some good political ideas in it, but nothing that original.
Ok, and of all the Northmen analogies so far I found parts of Rjurik from Birthright and Golarion's Linnorm Kings only useful.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Principaleties of Glantri. Halruaa or Netheril as it once was. I like it, but its not really a geographical work.
The problem imo are the demihumans, and the system of government. But the Radiance concept is matches to the Netherese views on gods.
Republic of Darokin seems too idealistic, I need to read more about it. The Shadow elves imo would ruin the good idea about albino drow. Ethengar is decent, but comparing to the Horde ...
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Oh there are a huge amount of great monsters I have included. Any one noticed the Nagpa until now?
Yes, the nagpa, thought of them being a fallen Aeree race related to the kenkus of Veldorn, something involving Pazuzu
Other monsters include hutakaans, lupins, phanatons and rakastas (also Beastlands, sort of cats vs. birds vs. serpents theme going on there), gyerians, bhuts (sauroid creator race experimentation), blackballs (Shar), dusanu, familiars, huptzeens, manikins and magens, fey imps, shargugh and pegataurs, knas and koprus (batrachi), sollux (created by Estagund for wars against Zakhara, based on Northmen mercenaries)
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That sounds a lot like the ideas I have used for the Gur and the River people. There are also the dancers of Turmish I have mentioned. These are from Eds Polyhedron articles and recreate history in the way you mention.
I wish there were more articles like the Turmish ones, about other cultures of the Realms. Tough in my alternate Earth Realms I moved them to the south, they're black.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But when using the Shires with Luiren, what do you do with the border threat as there are no logical substitute for the Black Eagle in the area; do you drop the ideas or do you invent another threats?
I invented another threat, my map of the southeastern Faerun would be somewhat different. Karameikos is north of Estagund/Thyathis, sort of where is Mulhorand officially, it's a historical analogue of medieval Sclavinias under Byzantine influence, later the Greco-Serbian ''empire'' under Stefan and Dusan. Between Lurien and Estagund there is a buffer zone, an otherworldly realm called the Outer Shire, or the Rogue Shire, like the Buckland. The story is that the Imaskari changed the nature of reality in their land to resemble the Outlands plane, there was a tower called Point of Infinity that like the Spire capable of negating godly powers. After the collapse of Imaskar, their creation began to deteriorate, the Ethereal seeping in. Now in that big circle in the southeast there are demiplane manifest areas (not plane-manifest like in Eberron), e.g. the Demiplane of Dread is influential in the north where is the Black Eagle barony and in Thay (actually Ustalav from Golarion, mix Traladarans, Vistani, Gurs, and Red Wizards are moved further east). In the Outer Shire spiritfolk halflings are often born, and the threats include ethergaunt slavers, xills, nathri raiders, joystealer fey, hags etc. I pictured Lurien and Estagund to be like Tolkien's Shire and Arnor, but Gondor better fits for that area. To avoid confusion, the Shaar is moved towards east, they're like Scythians, Veldorn towards Mulhorand (Ra and rakshasas), Durpar towards Malatra. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 11:20:35
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Sorry for just writing a summary like this, but answering each point above would become an editing nightmare.
This thread is just getting better and better. To bad there is not a map along with this. How is the contact with the northern parts of the Realms and what have you done with the religion of the area? The Immortal system of the Known World would have to be changed I imagine?
And yea the loxos and xavers has never been a part of my Realms either. I have some plans for actually going through the mass of monsters and try to prune and place creatures. Giving each some lore and background. And as you can imagine that is far into the future. I actually like the Mind Flayers, but I think they should keep the role of sinister visitors from other dimensions coming into the Realms and sucking peoples brains out. I don't like them being a political factor and having established cities in the Underdark though. That's where the Nagpa come in
There are giants in the area, but they are to few and to weird for me to enjoy them in the same way as the numerous species in the Altan Tepes. Dwarves without frost and fire giants around them? Doesn't seem right.
I actually prefer the Alfheim version of the elves to much of the Realms lore (although I think the Elves of Evermeet is a great book), but the gazetteer needs some work no matter what world you use it in. There are many great things about it (and not just the Fabian illustrations), but something must be done to actually make it an interesting area to adventure in. And the idiotic Elfquest bits should be taken out.
With the Emirates it is not so much the area today I like, as the back story and the feel of ancient evils lying .under the desert. Its probably the most pulpish version of the middle eastern settings from TSR. Forgotten city's of lizard men, flame cults, mistrustful members of ancient peoples and hidden magic's. Great.
But then there are a lot of Byzantine elements in that box that can used with the countries along the Sea of Fallen Stars also. Chondath is my first choice, but Semphar and Murghom needs to be reworked also.
Darokin as a collected nation doesn't work that well in any form, but seen as various intriguing city states of traders it can be a pretty good inspiration for areas of the Realms. Some cultural work will have to be done to a couple of the areas of course.
With the huge changes done in the South, have you done much work on Zakhara and Kara-Tur or have these been left outside the campaign until now?
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 11:26:37
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Hot Tuna is really a great band. Kaukonen is the only guitarist I can think of who can sound slow and extremely laid back whilst playing fast.
Here is the first part of Daggerdale. I have some problems keeping the text short in this area it seems.
Daggerdale.
History.
Daggerdale is a true dale, located between hills and mountains along the river Tesh. It is the northernmost of the modern Dales and is, after the destruction of Teshendale, the last remnants of the so called Survivor States. These, usually named Asram, Hlondath and Anauria were according to their own myths descendants of long lost Netheril. With time each of the states was lost, some say to their own arrogance others say they were swallowed by the desert.
The last story is the one commonly believed, but according to Cathagis Embertree of Harrowdale this is most likely only the case with Hlondeth. This was the last of the states and died when the wizards lost control their magic long enough to let twelve creatures said to be the embodiment of every greed and lust harboured by the lands inhabitants enter the Realms. Others claim that these so called Phaerimm where the sons and daughters of the Dark Lord Bane himself. What ever their heritage may be the creatures raged over the land and in the end used their collective magic to first sink port Miir into the Underdark (where some claim dwarven ships still sail)and then turn the River Tesh, leading the river to the other side of the Teshan Mountains now called the Desertsmouth Mountains. The great cities and baronies quickly fell to the drought. Many refugees tried to make it through the Teshan and the Border Forest, few survived the meetings with vengeful goblinoids, flinds and giants in addition to hungry dragons and the Phaerimm themselves, but those that did settled in the new river valley forming and along the western shores of the Moonsea. The last remnants of Hlondaths feared spear men managed to carve out minor kingdoms and settlements here in the east.
Now Daggerdale is the last and the Mourns the last nobles of Netheril in their own eyes. This myth has led to an age long arrogance among the Dales rulers that can be said to have reached its height after the fall of Teshendale. The Mourns and Daggerdalesmen have always been very sceptical to the use of iron, claiming that it was the use of this metal and with it the wish to redo creation that lead to the fall of their descendants, but that didn’t stop them from trading with the dwarves of Tethyamar or even use iron tools in some cases. But with the fall of Teshendale to the axemen and lancers of Zenthil Keep it seems panic struck the ruler Caeldar Mourn. He claimed that all irons should be banned from the dale, that the dwarves of the Brightblade clan were demons and that the only salvation lay in the worship of the ancient sun-god Amaunathor. There are many claims that an elf lord named Hilliicaes was whispering into Caeldars ears during this period. The resulting conflicts, not just with the Brightblades and their allies from Tethyamar, but also with the worshipers of Tesh, the Mother of the river and lifegiver of the Dale. In the end the dwarves were chased into the earth and the altars to Tesh were broken. Caeldar had won, but now ruled a realm that had grown to hate him.
The lord became more and more tyrannical, ruling with the help of a house guard composed of elves and half elves from Hillsfar and its surroundings. This continued under his son Randall, who slaughtered The Children of the Briers and the last Bhaergala living in the valley, and his nephew Baran, who unsuccessfully tried to oppose the increasing influence of Zenthil Keep. After the sacrifice of Aglaya Brightblade to Amaunathor the priests of the sun god were exterminated by the dwarves, a new clergy of southern Lathanderites were brought in by Barans brother, but it was to late.
When Baran was killed along with several Harpers trying to close a gate near Eagles Eyre the Dale for a short time became without leadership. Barans son Randall had been sent to the fabled city of Silverymoon years earlier to train under the famed bard Minthiper and was not able to stop the popular rebellion that broke out. It was lead by one Malyk, a landowner from the northern dale and said to be a worshipper of the nar gods. Within days most of the remaining Mourns and the lords house guard was burned in their barracks. Knowing the Mourns reputations the members of the other dales were reluctant to get involved.
Not until it was to late did they find out that Malyk had gained his power with the help of Zenthil Keep. Four days after taking the Constables tower the mage Eregul and ten assassins, all knowing the ancient candlegate spells of Ambathoir, killed all of Daggerdales leading citizens and their families. The priests of Lathander, seen by most to no different from the old sun priests, had already been slaughtered by Malyks men. At the same time four hundred scale mail clad warriors and fifty armoured riders of Zenthil Keep rode into the Dale. The weak resistance of the Dale warriors armed with bronze spears and shortswords, but knowing little magic was quickly put down. Daggerdale was under the control of Zenthil Keep and the Black Brotherhood.
The reasons for the Zenths interference were manifold. One was the long term plans of the Zentharim in controlling the trade routs to the west and in this they were supported by Orgauth and his nobles, who also saw the Dales potential as a source for slaves. Others in the army just wanted the glory of conquering and still others saw the riches to be found in the Dagger hills.
The rule of Malyk lasted for close to twenty years, with the power moving more and more in to the hands of the Zentharim. The family leaders were threatened into submission and the religious rites were done by the flame priests brought by Malyk and by the voice from the Temple in the Sky. The situation looked bad, but actually got worse when the Zenthilars, needed other places, left and a large part of the patrolling and guarding of the Dale was left to the hobgoblins of the Hetrauaaca, who unfortunately brought with them marauding orcs of the Gherragha, Truebloods and the Shield bands. And even though the hobgoblins under Ghegarra of the Flame led his troops more or less in the manner of the Zenths the orcs were mostly unchecked highwaymen. The final straw for the Dalesmen were the total slaughter and devouring of the settlements of Windcreek and Hensfort by bugbears coming up from the Dagger hills. In sheer desperation two dalesmen, Avener and Buille of Ravenscrag travelled to Shadowdale and begged the Harpers for help.
It is unclear what happened next, but the next winter a small group of men crossed the desert of Anauroch. Among them were mercenaries like Durnan and Mirt of Waterdeep, the elf Starrune, and the mage known as Alliicair the Kitecaster. Two red wolves from the Spine of the World travelled with them.
The group arrived in Daggerdale in the late fall, and met with several Harpers and members of the Knights of Myth Drannor in the foothills near the Tesh valley. The Zentish comander of the time ignored the warnings of Eregul and other wizards about the group and told the orcs to take care of the small group of intruders. At the time it was a mystery what happened next. Three day later a patrol found the bodies of over four hundred dead orcs along the banks of the Tesh and the tracks of dozens of men and horses around the battle, but leading nowhere. This scenario repeated itself several times in the next two months and by midwinter the Constable Tower with Malyk and his last guards were under siege.
Days later Malyk was killed and Randall was the lord of the Dale again. Since that day he has fought a running battle against zenthilars, brigands and mercenaries of various races. The ease of the early battles has disappeared after the dreaded Eregul the Freestaff tortured the secret out of Amberalla of the Veil. The group crossing the desert carried with them the fabled samara of Mielikki, a wondrous item that is said to have originated in the World Ash. It contains a golden castle within its core and in this fifty warriors of various sorts along with other adventurers had travelled with Randall across the desert and the castle had hidden them all during the liberation of the Dale. With that knowledge now in the hands of Manshoon the life of Randall and his riders has become far more dangerous, making the future of the dale uncertain.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 14:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
How is the contact with the northern parts of the Realms and what have you done with the religion of the area? The Immortal system of the Known World would have to be changed I imagine?
The contact with the northern parts is increased with the Shaar and Raurin being moved, and the Sea of Fallen Stars (a bit smaller) is no barrier, inspired by the Mediterranean. Also Chessenta, Akanul and the Arkaiun lands have more islands, peninsulas, canals, and bays (swamplands too) that are better connected with Chondath, Sespech, Arnatolls and Cheliax (Golarion). There is also a sort of a Hanseatic League going between Impiltur and Thesk.
The religion is like in the Realms plus much more (aliases, cults, heresies, nonreligious philosophies). Only borrowed the term ''immortal'' for nonaging people who are not worshipped but have one or two abilities similar to the salient divine abilities of gods. Like the ascendants from the Malazan world if you're familiar with it. It's a tradition that started in Azlant, kept by the surviving magi or rarely discovered by alchemists and others. E.g. Estagund has a monotheistic religion, the godhead has twelve aspects (most FR, some Golarion's gods under a different name). And there is a classical conflict between the emperor and the empurios/empyreal.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I have some plans for actually going through the mass of monsters and try to prune and place creatures. Giving each some lore and background.
That was my plan too, changing the Realms into an alternate history Earth made things much easier, just need to search to which mythology the monster belongs.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
And as you can imagine that is far into the future. I actually like the Mind Flayers, but I think they should keep the role of sinister visitors from other dimensions coming into the Realms and sucking peoples brains out. I don't like them being a political factor and having established cities in the Underdark though.
Yea, I see. I've already done so much with them, their main purpose was to collect information for Ilsensine, so they needed outposts (a city is an alien concept to them) to guard the temporary repositories, before being transferred to the Astral thought-clusters.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
There are giants in the area, but they are to few and to weird for me to enjoy them in the same way as the numerous species in the Altan Tepes. Dwarves without frost and fire giants around them? Doesn't seem right.
Well, dwarves always seemed to me an odd fit to the Eastern Realms. Pictured them sort of like crippled children of Hephaestus, working a lot with arsenic bronze. And giants of the eastern kind are called Toblakai, the ones I mentioned using the blood-oil made of sky-iron. They are more close to the divs, daityas, titans and nephilim than jhotuns. Dwarves with the frost and fire giants belong in the North imo.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I actually prefer the Alfheim version of the elves to much of the Realms lore
The part about their magic being subtle and growing is interesting. But I think FR elves already have that.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But then there are a lot of Byzantine elements in that box that can used with the countries along the Sea of Fallen Stars also. Chondath is my first choice, but Semphar and Murghom needs to be reworked also.
It could. I see Chondath as something that develops from the Western part of the Roman Empire into Italian mercantile city-states. Semphar and Murghom, I kicked out the Arabic elements, Semphar moved a bit east and inspired by Achaemenid Persia, Murghom by Howard's Turanians.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
With the huge changes done in the South, have you done much work on Zakhara and Kara-Tur or have these been left outside the campaign until now?
Yes, I was planning a Crusade style campaign to go along with Paizo's Legacy of Fire story. It is all arranged perfectly except I don't know for some of the tribes of the Horde, on what culture they are based on, the Dalat and few others. Kara-Tur is smaller, makes room for Riedra (Eberron). The Land of Fate is just one of the realms of the Sand Throne subcontinent, not so important, south and below them there is an undead land. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 17:00:43
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In addition to deciding what creatures to use in the Realms there are of course also the decision on how to present them. And using the earthly origin gives a few problems as many of the creatures in the D&D systems does little except borrow the names of creatures, or maybe some elements of their exterior. I still cant see the point of taking a great creature like the vodyanoy and turning it into something as bland as an aquatic umber hulk.
Where the elves are concerned I was thinking of the looser society and more tribal nature than most Realms sources has them being. But its been a year or two since I looked at the gazetteer, so I might remember it better than it really is.
I see the area around the Golden Water as the more Persian influenced region in my Realms. But then more inspired by the later eras of the Sassanids and the Parthian empire. The sasani rider of the south are therefore Cataphract. But now that you mention it the Murghom and Semphar region might be a good alternative.
You mention using Skythian-like cultures in the Shaar; isn't the area a bit warm for them and their culture? I have used them and other Iranian nomad groups loosely for the various nomad and semi-nomadic cultures in the North East, along the glazier and areas of the Endless Waste. With fantasy twists enough to make the likenesses very loose of course. But if I use the Golden Water as a Persian influenced region they would of course make logical northern neighbours.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 22:24:43
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Maybe is a bit warmer, it's smaller than FR Shaar, moved northeast, approximately where is Raurin on official maps, also it's on a higher ground (Landrise), extreme temperatures are turned moderate due to concordant effects of the Imaskari Outlands. Tough they migrated from the northern lands, they are related to Pazru Ki (Pazyryk culture of Earth).
Edit
I find the Achamenid era more interesting than the Sassanid, that's the criteria for historical analogues, only they did not expand so far in this alternate history, sort of limited to Susa and Persepolis area, defeated by Unther and Chessenta early on. |
Edited by - Quale on 05 Sep 2010 10:08:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 20:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
This thread is just getting better and better. To bad there is not a map along with this. How is the contact with the northern parts of the Realms and what have you done with the religion of the area? The Immortal system of the Known World would have to be changed I imagine?
Agreed - when I get home, hopefully by Monday, I've been inspired to work some more on my 'fantasy Realms' map. A lot of ideas presented here may become part of it.
As for the immortals, what would need to change? I never differentiated between immortals and powers, and my own system incorporates both. Immortals just become demo-powers - a quasi-divine in-between stage for mortals ascending through a slow, natural process.
Here is my system in a Nutshell (I mat have posted this before):
Level...........Equivalent
...0..........Newborn to preteen (age dependent upon race), ½ HD
...1..........Age 13-15 (or equivalent), 1HD
...2..........Ages 16 & 17, 2 HD
...3..........Age 18 (normal starting age for most races), 3 HD
...4..........Above average
.5-8.........Superior specimen
.9-13........Person of renown
.14-18.......Hero (or infamous villain), well-known
.19-23.......Super-hero - legendary status and hero-worship
...24.........DvR 0 - Immortal
.25-29.......Demi-powers, DvR 1-5
.30-34.......Lesser Power, DvR 6-10
.35-39.......Intermediate power, DvR 11-15
.40-43.......Greater Power, DvR 16-19
...44.........Quasi-High Power, DvR20
.45-49.......DvR 21-25, High Powers
.50-54.......Quasi-Over Powers, DvR 26-30
.55-59.......Lesser Over-Powers, DvR 31-35
.60-64.......Intermediate Over-Powers, DvR 36-40
.65-69.......Greater Over-Powers, DvR 41-45
.70-74.......Exalted Over Powers, DvR 46-50
.75-79.......Semi-Cosmic power, 51-55
.80-84.......Lesser Cosmic Power, DvR 56-60
.85-89.......Intermediate Cosmic Power, DvR 61-65
.90-94.......Greater Cosmic Power, DvR 65-70
.95-99.......Elder Cosmic Power, DvR 71-75
..100.................???
This divides into four over-groups of 25 levels each -
_0-24 = Mortals
25-49 = Deities
50-74 = Over Powers, sometimes called 'Primordials'
75-99 = Cosmic Powers, sometimes called 'Elder Gods'
Level 100 is the 'Unimaginable' (this is where "the one, true God" would reside for those so inclined). This system allows for 20 normal ranks in each 'phase of existence', with 5 in-between ranks that act as a 'farm-team' for the category above (so even deities have something to aspire to). 'High Gods' are the typical pantheonic Leaders - where I would place guys like the Celestial Emperor and Ra. The 'Primordial' category has gotten kinda blurred thanks to 4e terminology, but it still works for me. Ergo, each higher category 'begat' the beings of the lower category (which ties into many RW mythologies concerning an older group of 'Titanic' divine beings creating, and then being usurped by, a 'new generation'.)
Certain caveats, relating to my own over-cosmology: Only one being each holds the Levels 95-99. Cthon is the level 99, but he was expunged from the normal universe at the moment of it's creation. Also, DvR becomes irrelevant with this system - just subtract 24 from a being's level and you get the equivalent DvR (which really doesn't matter at all in-game, this is just a framework for me to build a working model of my cosmology in my mind). Also, all beings above level 24 (DvR 0) are considered 'gods' to mortals - they are beings that are beyond mortal ken.
What this means is that anyone can achieve 'godhood' through hard work, or even just circumstance. Many RW 'gods' ascended just through the worship of RW heroes (including Saints). It also means that super-high level camapaigns are not really feasible under these constraints - once you get to level 25 you become an NPC, regardless. Players do NOT get to 'play gods'. It also incorporates the great ideas from 2e's Dragon Kings - a supplement for Dark Sun that got me thinking along these lines so many years ago. In that work, the City-rulers set themselves up their own religions, much as the RW Ceasars and Pharoahs did, and through worship managed to ascend.
BTW, another caveat I make is that in some ancient Celestial tongue (the music of the Spheres?), the word for any beings of divine rank was 'Drakons', which down through the ages turned into the mortal word 'Dragons', which still represents a creature of immeasurable power and majesty. This is why so many ancient myths about the progenitors of the world revolve around dragons and serpent-like creatures. This ties into my theories that all things become (visually) what folks expect them to be - if you expect Jörmungandr to look like a great serpent, that is exactly what you will see. Creatures of that magnitude and power are really little more then pure energy, and only take physical form to interact with physical beings.
Beings of Level 50 (DvR 26+) can completely ignore Spheric barriers. All lower-level beings must adhere to the rules of the world or plane set forth by its Spheric Gaurdian (an Overgod or better).
So D&D deities become little more then Uber-mortals in my cosmology, similar to how Apollo was portrayed in the Star Trek episode Who Mourns for Adonis?. Once you surpass a certain level of power, whats the difference anyway? Using Star Trek as an example once again, wouldn't 'Q' be considered 'a god' by RW standards? He's actually quite a bit more powerful then most D&D deities, and yet in a scientific universe he simply considered an 'immensely powerful being'.
So go ahead and 'kill gods' in D&D... it doesn't really matter. They are really just the children of the 'true gods'....... and aren't we all? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 16:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
This thread is just getting better and better. To bad there is not a map along with this. How is the contact with the northern parts of the Realms and what have you done with the religion of the area? The Immortal system of the Known World would have to be changed I imagine?
Agreed - when I get home, hopefully by Monday, I've been inspired to work some more on my 'fantasy Realms' map. A lot of ideas presented here may become part of it.
As for the immortals, what would need to change? I never differentiated between immortals and powers, and my own system incorporates both. Immortals just become demo-powers - a quasi-divine in-between stage for mortals ascending through a slow, natural process.
Here is my system in a Nutshell (I mat have posted this before):
Level...........Equivalent
...0..........Newborn to preteen (age dependent upon race), ½ HD
...1..........Age 13-15 (or equivalent), 1HD
...2..........Ages 16 & 17, 2 HD
...3..........Age 18 (normal starting age for most races), 3 HD
...4..........Above average
.5-8.........Superior specimen
.9-13........Person of renown
.14-18.......Hero (or infamous villain), well-known
.19-23.......Super-hero - legendary status and hero-worship
...24.........DvR 0 - Immortal
.25-29.......Demi-powers, DvR 1-5
.30-34.......Lesser Power, DvR 6-10
.35-39.......Intermediate power, DvR 11-15
.40-43.......Greater Power, DvR 16-19
...44.........Quasi-High Power, DvR20
.45-49.......DvR 21-25, High Powers
.50-54.......Quasi-Over Powers, DvR 26-30
.55-59.......Lesser Over-Powers, DvR 31-35
.60-64.......Intermediate Over-Powers, DvR 36-40
.65-69.......Greater Over-Powers, DvR 41-45
.70-74.......Exalted Over Powers, DvR 46-50
.75-79.......Semi-Cosmic power, 51-55
.80-84.......Lesser Cosmic Power, DvR 56-60
.85-89.......Intermediate Cosmic Power, DvR 61-65
.90-94.......Greater Cosmic Power, DvR 65-70
.95-99.......Elder Cosmic Power, DvR 71-75
..100.................???
This divides into four over-groups of 25 levels each -
_0-24 = Mortals
25-49 = Deities
50-74 = Over Powers, sometimes called 'Primordials'
75-99 = Cosmic Powers, sometimes called 'Elder Gods'
Level 100 is the 'Unimaginable' (this is where "the one, true God" would reside for those so inclined). This system allows for 20 normal ranks in each 'phase of existence', with 5 in-between ranks that act as a 'farm-team' for the category above (so even deities have something to aspire to). 'High Gods' are the typical pantheonic Leaders - where I would place guys like the Celestial Emperor and Ra. The 'Primordial' category has gotten kinda blurred thanks to 4e terminology, but it still works for me. Ergo, each higher category 'begat' the beings of the lower category (which ties into many RW mythologies concerning an older group of 'Titanic' divine beings creating, and then being usurped by, a 'new generation'.)
Certain caveats, relating to my own over-cosmology: Only one being each holds the Levels 95-99. Cthon is the level 99, but he was expunged from the normal universe at the moment of it's creation. Also, DvR becomes irrelevant with this system - just subtract 24 from a being's level and you get the equivalent DvR (which really doesn't matter at all in-game, this is just a framework for me to build a working model of my cosmology in my mind). Also, all beings above level 24 (DvR 0) are considered 'gods' to mortals - they are beings that are beyond mortal ken.
What this means is that anyone can achieve 'godhood' through hard work, or even just circumstance. Many RW 'gods' ascended just through the worship of RW heroes (including Saints). It also means that super-high level camapaigns are not really feasible under these constraints - once you get to level 25 you become an NPC, regardless. Players do NOT get to 'play gods'. It also incorporates the great ideas from 2e's Dragon Kings - a supplement for Dark Sun that got me thinking along these lines so many years ago. In that work, the City-rulers set themselves up their own religions, much as the RW Ceasars and Pharoahs did, and through worship managed to ascend.
BTW, another caveat I make is that in some ancient Celestial tongue (the music of the Spheres?), the word for any beings of divine rank was 'Drakons', which down through the ages turned into the mortal word 'Dragons', which still represents a creature of immeasurable power and majesty. This is why so many ancient myths about the progenitors of the world revolve around dragons and serpent-like creatures. This ties into my theories that all things become (visually) what folks expect them to be - if you expect Jörmungandr to look like a great serpent, that is exactly what you will see. Creatures of that magnitude and power are really little more then pure energy, and only take physical form to interact with physical beings.
Beings of Level 50 (DvR 26+) can completely ignore Spheric barriers. All lower-level beings must adhere to the rules of the world or plane set forth by its Spheric Gaurdian (an Overgod or better).
So D&D deities become little more then Uber-mortals in my cosmology, similar to how Apollo was portrayed in the Star Trek episode Who Mourns for Adonis?. Once you surpass a certain level of power, whats the difference anyway? Using Star Trek as an example once again, wouldn't 'Q' be considered 'a god' by RW standards? He's actually quite a bit more powerful then most D&D deities, and yet in a scientific universe he simply considered an 'immensely powerful being'.
So go ahead and 'kill gods' in D&D... it doesn't really matter. They are really just the children of the 'true gods'....... and aren't we all?
Thats exactly the reason I asked. In the Realms there are stories about mortals becoming gods, but with the Immortals it is more or less a rule and an accessible goal. And one I hate. I strongly dislike the idea that mortals can become gods except as a one-in-a-universe happening; its almost better if the gods tried to become mortals. Some power might be gained by being worshipped, but that you can plan out a rout to divinity is not something I care much for. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 16:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I find the Achamenid era more interesting than the Sassanid, that's the criteria for historical analogues, only they did not expand so far in this alternate history, sort of limited to Susa and Persepolis area, defeated by Unther and Chessenta early on.
I can agree with that, but I wanted a more traditional heavy feel. The Achamenids are to "fresh" and in many ways between two periods with both nomad traditions and urban traditions. But then again, when I say inspired by, it is mostly just minor things and images, so much of the details from various periods flows together. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 16:27:34
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This is becoming a bit long-winded. I will have to cut down if I do more after this Dale. There will most likely be one more post about Daggerdale though.
Daggerdale part II
After all the conflicts that have plagued the Dale in the recent years there is little left of the old structure of the Dales society. The Dale was known for its strong, almost clannish, families that dated their history back for centuries. Now most of the members of the leading families have been killed, many of the minor settlements and farms have been destroyed and the population even more hardened and suspicious. But most families still keep the legendary Aedree-carpets, a tradition said to date back to Netheril, which show the family history through its embroidery. Although these are still found many places in the Moonsea and a couple of places in the west, in no area do they go so far back or show so great amount of details as in Daggerdale and earlier Teshendale. Although it seems like the Zhenthilar searched specifically for the carpets, most likely by the orders of one of the lords of the Zhentharim, most were hidden through the occupation. According to sources in Hillsfar, this was in most cases actually done with the help of Malyks and his men, who being dalesmen and coast dwellers themselves, revered the carpets to much to aid in their destruction.
Daggerdale was earlier an important link in the trade between the dwarves, the desert people, the dalesmen and the various groups of the Moonsea, but now the economy of the area is in ruins and traders will usually avoid the dale. In contrast to the general tradition of the Dales the people here will not barter in any way, neither for services or goods and only coins are accepted as payment and preferably the Zhentish silver, which will lead to fewer questions and can be easily hidden. Anathars Dell an exception to this and as the area is rich in commodities it is quite likely that trade will increase again as soon as possible.
The chaos and anarchy in the Dales recent history was also felt by Randal Morn, which although welcomed as a liberator from Zhenthil Keep, found that very few of the remaining elders or community leaders were all that interesting in having a strong Morn rule again. This showed especially in his attempt to collect taxes for feeding his men and fighting the Zhents. The first harvest of his rule found three of his tax collectors included Azackar of the Stonebeards, missing. Their remains were found in Dagger Hills when the snow disappeared and a Hillsfarian arrowhead was found near by. Although lodgings and food (if there is any) will be given to the lord and his men, this is seen more as upholding the tradition of hospitality than a paying of dues. Randal might be irritated by this attitude, but has little to gain by antagonizing the elders. Even after all these years most have hidden mountain-spears and self made crossbows. Short swords and fighting axes might not be that common any more, nor are spelldrawn weapons, but the new lord cant afford to take chances with his subjects. Knowing their lords relative weakness they would feel not hesitate in raising their arms against him.
Although Daggerdale was a relatively settled Dale before the days of Malyk, especially with the refugees coming down from the North after the fall of Teshendale, this has changed now. The settlements left today are usually fortified or near a hill fort that serves as both granary and safe-place. Many of the oldest settlements have rebuilt their crumbling walls and bow-towers that were popular in earlier times and several hill forts dating back to the Nar wars have been cleared of resident stirges and bloodhawks to again be put into use. Most of the secrets of the red ochre signs the ruins have been painted with are forgotten now, but the defences are better than nothing.
The area around the homes are filled with traps used both for protection and hunting, these are marked with runes and signs known by most northern Dalesmen, but other travellers should be careful. Conveniently the warnings are placed in areas hidden for those who don’t know what to look for. Hunting and goat herding (although very dangerous and mainly done outside of the hills)is now more important than farming in most of Daggerdale. Some of the abandoned or destroyed farms have been rebuilt in the last couple of years, but the work is going slowly, even after Randal promised free land to any Hillsfarian that settled the Dale. This was not taken well by the elders, especially as the people of that city are remembered for their support of the old Morn rulers. So even now the under brush and wilderness is spreading through the labyrinths of minor valleys and crags.
All of this has made Randal Morns situation almost impossible. It is rumoured that he has even seen the need to plunder some of the ancient burial places of the family and Dale nobles found in the cliffs of the Tesh mountains. These can not easily be found without the medallion of Ethbarr, so the Zhents have left them alone. If these stories are ever proven to be more than Zhentish slander, Randal will find himself chased back into the mountains. Even the wild men of the border forest would look harshly at the desecration of the spirit holds and cliff graves that in some cases belong to their ancestors as well as those of the Dale. It is known though, that the tales told of Randal plundering the schools of Ademeea and killing the wandering minstrel Bebecar are untrue, this was done by mercenary orcs and nars, so it is quite likely that these are just rumours also. In fact it seems likely that Randall would be more interested in clearing the paths to the graves again and reopen the schools and cloisters, as the tolls gathered from travellers and the support of seekers and wizards is desperately needed.
Another problem facing the Dalesmen is the constant raids coming out of the Dagger Hills. Randal and his men have been able to hold back most of the raiding parties coming across the Tesh or out of the Desertsmouths valleys, but the man-eating bugbears of the Underdark and the vicious leucrotta are a bigger problem. As are the reemerging giants and beholders determined to reform the cult of the Temple in the Sky. In addition the years of misrule have made every minor wood or uncleared area a breeding spot for stirges and owlbears.
With the exception of Dagger Falls the last major centre of the Dale is Anathars Dell, named after the Hlondathan mage that lifted the Mistshade the faceless priests put on the Dagger River when the Shadow loons migrated to the river a thousand years ago. The mists are still common in the area and it was whispered among the zhents that the southern area of the Dale was bewitched. There is some truth in this, but much of the fear comes from the faith tied to the bird in the Moonsea. This fear of fog and morning mists has also been a hindrance with various Moonsea rulers attempts at leading armies into Cormanthor
Although the village is a wondrous cite, all of stone and built with sun granite from the Desertmouths, the secret of the Dells survival is in its citizens. Here the Brightblades still call out orders from the balconies, as told in ancient ballads, and reminds the Dalesmen of how the rulers of Tethyamar once lived. The lords might have driven the Brightblades from most of the Dales surface, but here in the southernmost part of Daggerdale the Morns rule was never that strong in the first place and the local humans and elvenbloods had as little interest as the dwarves in seeing this change. The village therefore combined the best of each race. The dwarves supplies the local farmers with mail and swords in addition to iron arrowheads, but also forged bronze weapons that were used in combination with dwarven songs and elven magic. The elves of the Emerald Eye in the Dagger Hills protested, but were silenced by the elven king of Everlor, who was convinced by Sylune of Shadowdale to support the settlement. Now the local poultry breeders and pig herders live, protected by the giant tigers brought from Aberiicaaz-Taeng, live safer than any other Daggerdalesmen in known memory.
Further north the dales capital of Dagger Falls is still struggling. The village has strong walls protected by magic and three-story houses that have glass windows and carvings depicting suntales. There is a well supplied weaponsmith and several bound gargoyles to guards its sky at night, All in all it is a comfortable place to live and life should be good. It is to close to the warriors of Zhentil Keep though, to ever be really safe no matter how strong its walls. And although this is the strongest area of support for Randal Morn the populace is still confused by the fall of the Beholder Cult of the Flame Sphere and not even Mourn and his men dare to chase Hemerezza and his believers from the town, even after it was proved that the firebearded-one was born in far-of Thay. But slowly it seems that Morn is gaining a foothold and recent developments with Tilverton caravans coming through, emeralds being mined again and the forest people trading again, has increased his popularity.
A test of Randals abilities has shown itself recently as there is a strong sense of dread over the town. It might be one of the decisive situation in the new rulers life. The beholder-cult was first blamed for a series of recent kidnappings and the killing of a bride on a Seeing, but the search of the ranger Bheildar Ravensbow revealed an even more sinister truth. He found track like none he had ever seen near the walls and several signs cut into trees around the places people were disappearing, most likely of a religious nature. The journey done by Awamethra of Tilverton, a soulflyer of renown, revealed that the people were dead, but not in this world. Randall now fears that a gate has been opened near by and some creatures are praying on the locals. The appearance of a great wolf of strange powers outside of Fulgath's Caravan Supplies might be connected to this, although others, such as Dynter of the Broken Dagger, claims that it is a sign of the displeasure of the Mist Queen and that sacrifices should be made to the birds when Tesh is next time covered and placating Selune. Others among Morns men have pointed out the stories told of giant wasps, ticks and other terrible insects showing themselves up-river last spring. This might be a sign that several gates or rifts have opened or that some wizard has lost control over his magic. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 09:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I can agree with that, but I wanted a more traditional heavy feel. The Achamenids are to "fresh" and in many ways between two periods with both nomad traditions and urban traditions. But then again, when I say inspired by, it is mostly just minor things and images, so much of the details from various periods flows together.
Agree, I worked that out by dividing them into various satrapies, Parsanic is the original homeland (inspired by Pasargadae, Persepolis area). Zelshabbar (Pathfinder name) is based on the Medes and Ecbatana, Xshayatiya ''Royal-holyfire'' cities of the magi and Z-priests. They are more autonomous cause magic works in this world. Satrapy of Qadira (from Pathfinder) is also semi-independent, as an Anatolian mercantile province. Then there's Semphar, based on the Sassanid era with Parthian elements. Ur-halta (homebrew name) is Elamite-inspired. Independent Tepe Dalat (from ''Qalat'', persian word for ''fortress'') culture is north of the satrapies, bordering the Shaar/Scythia/Sarmatia region, more horse-dependant, Chorasmian-like. |
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Some ridiculously un-canon Realmswork
