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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 09:27:32
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Well he could help Telamont and provide the location of Tams phylactery  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 09:29:22
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Good counter point. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 09:29:24
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| Well, its a gamble anyway considering there's always a chance Tam could suceed in his goal. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 09:32:53
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| I'm sure he's sending his servants to directly or indirectly keep Tam from accomplishing his goal, and providing help to Tam's not so few enemies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 10:17:01
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| Maybe he wants Tam to succeed in his preparations for the ritual and than step in in the last step to accomplish it instad of Tam. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 10:29:04
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Not far from possible.
Anyway, I'm wondering, given Telamont's near-boundless capabilities, why does he not create SW-based mythallars? That would save him time and resources instead of searching for the fallen enclaves with working or fixable mythallars. I understand Mystra's Ban prohibited the creation of such high-magic-using tools, but he's not dependent on the Weave. He uses the Shadow Weave, and that has no ban at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 10:31:34 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 13:36:20
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cause the shadow weave depends on the weave, if the weave is limited then the shadow weave is even more
Telamont and Tam would never fight cause Thay is too far away, both have hundreds of other obstacles (wizards) between, FR is not a place where two superpowers clash and all others cower. Hadrhune was a megalomaniac. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 13:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
cause the shadow weave depends on the weave, if the weave is limited then the shadow weave is even more
The Ban should have kept all mythallars from operating after the Fall. But why are the mythallars of Shade and Sakkors working?---Because Telamont infused them with shadow magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Telamont and Tam would never fight cause Thay is too far away, both have hundreds of other obstacles (wizards) between, FR is not a place where two superpowers clash and all others cower. Hadrhune was a megalomaniac.
When there’s a reason grave enough that a direct confrontation is needed, distance hardly matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Hadrhune was a megalomaniac.
And Telamont is not? So what then do you call someone who does everything to establish a continent-spanning empire, killing without compunction anyone who stands in the way, crushing foes and servants alike? A compassionate person? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 14:09:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 14:05:17
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| The Shadow Weave, as a shadow of the Weave, is indeed less powerful than the Weave. It can't exceed the Weave, and in some ways, fails to match it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 14:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave, as a shadow of the Weave, is indeed less powerful than the Weave. It can't exceed the Weave, and in some ways, fails to match it.
The point?
I don't recall mentioning otherwise. What I said was the W has a Ban, while the SW has none, hence Telamont is able to utilize high-level spells that might otherwise have been impossible had he used the W. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 14:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not far from possible.
Anyway, I'm wondering, given Telamont's near-boundless capabilities, why does he not create SW-based mythallars? That would save him time and resources instead of searching for the fallen enclaves with working or fixable mythallars. I understand Mystra's Ban prohibited the creation of such high-magic-using tools, but he's not dependent on the Weave. He uses the Shadow Weave, and that has no ban at all.
I seem to recall that in order to use spells of a higher level than the ban, the Shadovar required the Karse stone.
The weave, by virtue of having a ban, makes the shadow weave have one as well. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 15:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not far from possible.
Anyway, I'm wondering, given Telamont's near-boundless capabilities, why does he not create SW-based mythallars? That would save him time and resources instead of searching for the fallen enclaves with working or fixable mythallars. I understand Mystra's Ban prohibited the creation of such high-magic-using tools, but he's not dependent on the Weave. He uses the Shadow Weave, and that has no ban at all.
I seem to recall that in order to use spells of a higher level than the ban, the Shadovar required the Karse stone.
The weave, by virtue of having a ban, makes the shadow weave have one as well.
Towards the end of The Sorcerer, Shar had snatched the Karse Stone before Malik could steal it. I assume she kept it hidden. I don't remember anything that says she put it back in Shade. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 15:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Ban should have kept all mythallars from operating after the Fall. But why are the mythallars of Shade and Sakkors working?---Because Telamont infused them with shadow magic.
The same reason why all other pre-Karsus-Folly artifacts are working.
Tough I think in theory psionics could manifest 10+ level powers. Mystra's dealing with Auppenser is suspicious.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And Telamont is not? So what then do you call someone who does everything to establish a continent-spanning empire, killing without compunction anyone who stands in the way, crushing foes and servants alike? A compassionate person?
He's no fool and knows his limitations, they spied Faerun for centuries and then settled above Anauroch.
Tough I find the idea of Shade being capable of conquering Sembia ridiculous. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 15:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Tough I find the idea of Shade being capable of conquering Sembia ridiculous.
They would have found it a bit of a challenge had the rulers of Sembia been less gullible. They hardly used their might in conquering Sembia. It was done primarily through intrigue/political machinations. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 15:49:58 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 15:54:21
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| Against a united Sembia they wouldn't have had the numbers to conquer it. But as Dennis said they did it through intrigue and so they didn't conquered but saved it. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 21 Jan 2011 15:54:43 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:07:48
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| Indeed. The sheer number of the Sembians, who also have a considerable number of wizards and clerics, might be a challenge to Shade had all of them united. Telamont must have clearly seen that, so he opted instead to have Rivalen stir up some intrigue to foster political instability. Why use magic and might when brains would prove more than enough? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave, as a shadow of the Weave, is indeed less powerful than the Weave. It can't exceed the Weave, and in some ways, fails to match it.
The point?
I don't recall mentioning otherwise. What I said was the W has a Ban, while the SW has none, hence Telamont is able to utilize high-level spells that might otherwise have been impossible had he used the W.
The point is that if the Weave can't do it, the Shadow Weave can't, either. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:25:38
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This t'would indicate that Mystra has placed a ban on the Shadow Weave as well... has'est she?
Fore, if the Weave we're mighty, say crank'eth'ed upon 11...
and the Shadow Weave were less might,y sayeth maximally cranked upon reaching 10...
and then Mystra turneth'ed down the Weave, say upon 9...
wouldest'nae the volume of the Weave of Shadow then exceed the Goddesses' Weave?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave, as a shadow of the Weave, is indeed less powerful than the Weave. It can't exceed the Weave, and in some ways, fails to match it.
The point?
I don't recall mentioning otherwise. What I said was the W has a Ban, while the SW has none, hence Telamont is able to utilize high-level spells that might otherwise have been impossible had he used the W.
The point is that if the Weave can't do it, the Shadow Weave can't, either.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 18:59:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:59:34
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| The Shadow Weave is a shadow of the Weave. It is inherently less than the Weave -- the Shadow Weave cannot exceed the capabilities of that which it exists within. The Shadow Weave has the same limitations as the Weave, plus its own limitations. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:00:48
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A fascinating interpretation, Scribe Rupert!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave is a shadow of the Weave. It is inherently less than the Weave -- the Shadow Weave cannot exceed the capabilities of that which it exists within. The Shadow Weave has the same limitations as the Weave, plus its own limitations.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave, as a shadow of the Weave, is indeed less powerful than the Weave. It can't exceed the Weave, and in some ways, fails to match it.
The point?
I don't recall mentioning otherwise. What I said was the W has a Ban, while the SW has none, hence Telamont is able to utilize high-level spells that might otherwise have been impossible had he used the W.
The point is that if the Weave can't do it, the Shadow Weave can't, either.
If that’s the case, then why did Paul (or whoever from WotC told him to write it) entertain the idea that Telamont MIGHT be able to do something with the Ban to utilize high-level spells necessary in erecting another enclave? Below is the reference taken from Shadowbred. Highlight is mine. Note that instead of IMPOSSIBLE or other related terms, he opted to use DIFFICULT, which is far from being similar to impossible. Ergo, despite the Ban, the Most High can make another enclave, but since it’s difficult---perhaps requiring too much of his own strength that would consequently render him vulnerable---he chose to search for the fallen enclaves instead. And Ironically, I answered my own question: Given Telamont's near-boundless capabilities, why does he not create SW-based mythallars?
quote:
The Shadovar of Shade Enclave could repair a damaged mythallar, could use magic to rebuild a city in a month, but Mystra's Denial—an edict issued by the goddess of magic in response to Karsus's Folly, an edict that prohibited the casting of certain powerful spells once common in ancient Netheril—made it difficult for even the Most High to cast the spell necessary to remove the top of a mountain and use it as a base for a floating city.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 19:20:07 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:41:50
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Ye have answered thine own question, good Scribe dennis! It is difficult to raise mythallar; but nae impossible, in the Year of Lightning Storms. The Most High could certainly raise another, but 'tis easier to recover those lost. Tis also a way for Netheril to be re-born, nae re-built!
(tis called Epic Spellcasting, an eldritch system which circumvents th'Ladies Ban) |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 19:43:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:50:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Ye have answered thine own question, good Scribe dennis! It is difficult to raise mythallar; but nae impossible, in the Year of Lightning Storms. The Most High could certainly raise another, but 'tis easier to recover those lost. Tis also a way for Netheril to be re-born, nae re-built!
(tis called Epic Spellcasting, an eldritch system which circumvents th'Ladies Ban)
Well, at least I was able to unearth the possibility that the Ban's restrictions are not absolute. Mytra's Ban was SUPPOSED to keep anyone from using that spell (can't remember the name atm) intended for cleaving a mountaintop, creating a mythallar, and utilizing the said tool to raise the enclave. But it seems like Telamont is an exception to this rule, or rather has found ways to be exempted from it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:11:44
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Aye, Epic Spellcasting tis a method Mystra allows to overcome the Ban.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Ye have answered thine own question, good Scribe dennis! It is difficult to raise mythallar; but nae impossible, in the Year of Lightning Storms. The Most High could certainly raise another, but 'tis easier to recover those lost. Tis also a way for Netheril to be re-born, nae re-built!
(tis called Epic Spellcasting, an eldritch system which circumvents th'Ladies Ban)
Well, at least I was able to unearth the possibility that the Ban's restrictions are not absolute. Mytra's Ban was SUPPOSED to keep anyone from using that spell (can't remember the name atm) intended for cleaving a mountaintop, creating a mythallar, and utilizing the said tool to raise the enclave. But it seems like Telamont is an exception to this rule, or rather has found ways to be exempted from it.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 20:12:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:31:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Aye, Epic Spellcasting tis a method Mystra allows to overcome the Ban.)
Indeed. The epic version of Move Mountain is not the same as the 10th level spell Proctiv's Move Mountain. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:39:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Aye, Epic Spellcasting tis a method Mystra allows to overcome the Ban.)
Indeed. The epic version of Move Mountain is not the same as the 10th level spell Proctiv's Move Mountain.
I see. I thought the Ban prohibits all powerful spells. With a little research, I found out that epic magic was not affected by Mystra's Ban. Hence, it's not a wonder Telamont can---should he want or need to---create another floating enclave. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 22:20:20
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| Correct. The Ban keeps the old spells from being cast the way they once were, and forces casters to have to develop and cast those spells in a new and more difficult fashion. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:11:54
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Just a point of clarification:
One of the Ban's effects is that all spellcasters have to spend time memorizing spells and are limited to holding a certain number of magical spells in their head at a given time. I seem to recall liches retain all their spell-knowledge gathered when they were alive and could easily use them without having to relearn them over and over again. But should they attempt to learn and cast new spells, they are still restricted by this rule, right? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:18:06
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Lichnee retain their eldritch acumen; they must 'meditate' for 1/3 turn of Toril before they can infuse their minds with the power of Spells.
In most ways, lichnee cast spells as do mortal mages.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just a point of clarification:
One of the Ban's effects is that all spellcasters have to spend time memorizing spells and are limited to holding a certain number of magical spells in their head at a given time. I seem to recall liches retain all their spell-knowledge gathered when they were alive and could easily use them without having to relearn them over and over again. But should they attempt to learn and cast new spells, they are still restricted by this rule, right?
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A Likely Face-off
