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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's another bit relavent to the op; in the deities and demigods article regarding 4e core Bahamut, it's mentioned that most of his human(oid) followers don't actually believe he's a dragon anymore than Moradin is a dwarf; its a symbol. People assign myth's about Gruumsh One-Eye because the image of a single eye always watching you invokes fear. They believe Tyr is a one handed god because the image of someone who has lost limbs in the pursuit of justice makes him seem more relatable.
So... for hundreds if not thousands of years, Bahamut's most trusted faithful were transformed into humanoid draconics (no matter their original race). Is this now no longer the case in 4E?
And why would Bahamut have done this to his followers, if not to match their god's draconic essence?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 04 Feb 2011 21:55:37 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:56:42
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| I'm assuming you're talking about the dragonborn? No, that doesn't happen anymore. In 4e they're just a standard race with draconic features. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 22:35:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming you're talking about the dragonborn? No, that doesn't happen anymore. In 4e they're just a standard race with draconic features.
I know of the new dragonborn, of Abeir. But it sounds like Bahamut no longer changes his faithful into dragonborn (the original Realms kind) as he had done for hundreds of years, perhaps longer.
Do they explain the change in Bahamut's faith, or why this isn't done any longer? It'd be really odd if there's no mention of it.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 22:36:25
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| Was the Bahamut article for the Realms Bahamut? I thought it was about the "core" deity. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:17:09
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| Well, yea, it was for core Bahamut. Still, the sentiment is one I think translates rather well. People don't really think the gods are [insert race here] but bigger, its just the image they attach to them to avoid thinking of their gods as floating masses of astral energy. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 05:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
Let's not dismiss, either, that the image of a "dismembered deity" could simply be an illusion -- and/or an attempt to lull opposing forces into underestimating just what the deity is actually capable of doing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 10:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
I agree, Wooly; there are certainly NO examples of RL religions where an all-powerful individual sacrifices himself for the betterment of his followers. That sort of thing would never gain any kind of popularity in any world, right?
Again, as I see it, the Powers in qestion leave the handicaps in place in order to engender in their followers a sense that even the god they worship has had setbacks and persevered, and that his chosen people should do the same. Of course they *could* heal the wounds/damage, but to do so would cost them a great story, and great stories= more petitioners.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 11:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
Let's not dismiss, either, that the image of a "dismembered deity" could simply be an illusion -- and/or an attempt to lull opposing forces into underestimating just what the deity is actually capable of doing.
I'd agree with that sentiment, Sage, but we're talking about gods here, not goblins- they might fall to subterfuge that plays into their preconceived notions, but I can't see any Power falling for something as blatant as that. Not when they can ALL do the same sort of thing. Shar (who takes no less than 4 different forms when appearing to *her own followers*) is unlikely to think that Illmater is somehow diminished by his torture-wracked form, or that Gruumsh is less perceptive b/c he's down an eye. The Powers (I would think) have a healthy amount of respect for other powers, regardless of the form they take. Shiallia might *look* like an easy mark, but even a Greater Power might fear to test her on her home turf... I could be wrong, but I have to assume that if a Power is notably handicapped, that it is by choice. And the only reason for them to do that is to gain worshipers or to incite greater devotion in existing worshipers.
All societies are governed by the Law of the Minimum; that is to say that a given society makes its rules based on the resource which is present in the least amount. In the case of Realmsian Powers that resource is faith, and I assume (unless another motive is given) that virtually everything that they do is to gain faith/veneration. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:16:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
I agree, Wooly; there are certainly NO examples of RL religions where an all-powerful individual sacrifices himself for the betterment of his followers. That sort of thing would never gain any kind of popularity in any world, right?
Again, as I see it, the Powers in qestion leave the handicaps in place in order to engender in their followers a sense that even the god they worship has had setbacks and persevered, and that his chosen people should do the same. Of course they *could* heal the wounds/damage, but to do so would cost them a great story, and great stories= more petitioners.
Who said anything about sacrificing themselves?
If a god is all about projecting strength, like Gruumsh is, then why should he willingly project the fact that he was defeated? How does it engender any kind of faith to say "be tough, like me, the guy who got beat up by an elf"? If he wanted to show an ability to persevere and endure, then he should heal the eye, to show that no elf could cause lasting damage. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:36:32
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Because there is always the possibility that he really was born with one eye?
Edit: Alternatively, it is part of orcish culture that they wear their battle scars both from victory and defeat with pride. Its possible Gruumsh wears the missing eye to remind Corellon "You have taken from me. One day, I will take from you." If gods slept, that would probably keep him up nights. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 05 Feb 2011 14:42:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:51:05
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An ascended orc-cyclops halfbreed? Ick.
I suppose you're essentially correct, CoA ... gods are "born" symbolically (from the minds of their believers) pretty much fully formed, unagingly perceived as being set at some (usually adult or elderly) age, already bearing scars and injuries and deformities. Explanations are usually given for their parentage or origins, but not always, and usually not in any way that would physically make sense.
D&D does offer a bit of a twist on the Chicken-and-egg question. What came first: orcs to worship Gruumsh into existence, or Gruumsh to fashion orcs into the worlds? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Because there is always the possibility that he really was born with one eye?
Edit: Alternatively, it is part of orcish culture that they wear their battle scars both from victory and defeat with pride. Its possible Gruumsh wears the missing eye to remind Corellon "You have taken from me. One day, I will take from you." If gods slept, that would probably keep him up nights.
It's part of the mythology that Gruumsh lost his eye to Corellon.
And Corellon already took the eye -- I doubt he'd be all that worried about Gruumsh coming back for more. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 19:18:26
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| Eh. I'm horribly bais as pro orc and anti elf. In my homebrew setting, Gruumsh did lose his eye to Corellon. He then ripped Corellon's arm of and beat him with it before the other elven gods managed to drive him away. Its the elves who deny that myth up and down. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 14:14:24
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The day I was introduced to the AD&D (and RPGs) I spent hours reading the (1E pre-Realms) rulebooks and making my very first character: a gritty LG half-elven ranger decked out with an Aragon-of-Aragorn-sounding name, longbow, longsword, a "secret" dagger in each boot, and a big chiseled chinload of lofty heroic virtues. (Ick, talk about stereotyped teenaged unsophistication.)
DM: So who's your god?
Me: Huh? I have to have a god?
DM: Yeah. Pick one. <hands over a book I haven't yet seen, Deities & Demigods>
Me: Wow. Um, that's a lot of gods. Do I have to read the whole thing? Which god is the best?
DM: You're a ranger. Pick a god of rangers.
Me: Will my god make me a better ranger?
DM: No.
Me: Will my god reward me for being a good ranger?
DM: Not really.
Me: Will my god give me anything at all?
DM: You're not a cleric, so your god doesn't really do anything. Except punish you with divine wrath for any transgressions of the faith.
Me: My god won't do anything except zorch me when I'm bad?
DM: Yeah, pretty much. But only when you're really bad. Or when you fail to fight against all your god's enemies.
<pause>
Me: So who's the god of stuff like gentleness, forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Feb 2011 16:59:56 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:18:21
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Well, as I said earlier there is an official version of the myth - not an orcish version, just a real possibility - that Corellon only managed to beat Gruumsh because one of the other elven gods caused a distraction, which was discribed as a cataclysmic storm.
I've always scoffed at the notion of Gruumsh as simply a god of brute strength. I think of him as a very skilled warrior; undisciplined, yes. But wild, savaged, and unpredictable, as well as cunning. Not unintelligent, but more prone to action over thought.
This probably just comes from my love of the underdog, which after so many years means I root for the villains because it is a foregone conclusion all too often that the heroes will win. I also think that strength has gotten shafted so often in the strength vs speed and strength vs skill(when it is mutually exclusive to neither) that a big, strong guy is in every real sense, the underdog in a fight against a small, fast guy in this day in age.
Plus, I just plain do not like elves. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:43:08
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| I've seen that, and loved it. Thought it was hilarious that a live action movie from thirty years ago was a better loony toon movie than the last couple of live action loony toon movies. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Some problems i have with the gods in lore
