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Miraculixx
Acolyte
Germany
19 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 15:12:46
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Hello, fellow scribes,
i have a question i so far was unable to learn the answer to.
Like this, i quote this from:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Corellon_Larethian
"Gruumsh One-Eye became Corellon's greatest enemy after Corellon plucked out the orc-god's eye in ancient times"
and another from:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mask
"During the Time of Troubles Mask took shape of a powerful blade called Godsbane. He would eventually come to be wielded by the then-mortal Cyric; he acquired the sword by murdering a halfling named Sneakabout, who in turn killed the former wielder of the sword. In the years following the Time of Troubles, Mask released the powerful hound Kezef to try and kill Cyric, but the hound turned instead on the Lord of Shadows, not stopping the chase until it had bitten off one of the god's limbs."
and another one:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kezef
"When Kezef discovered he was truly fettered, he bit off Tyr's hand[1] and feasted on its divine essence for centuries as he strove to free himself."
Now my question, to the above posted.
So far as i understand, the gods (in forgotten realms) are (inhuman with Mask, in the case with Corellian inelf, and with Gruumsh inorc) beeings.
They are gods, they command Magic even Elminster could dream of, shouldn't it be then, that they are able to heal themselves? A simple restoration spell should grow the missing limb back. Or is it as i fear, that with the missing body part/parts, a part of their divine essence is gone (perhaps cast into the astral plane, just guessing)?
Or is it a paradox like:
Is almighty God able to lift a rock, which is so heavy, that God cant lift it?
I hope you see my dilemma with this question, and i hope i habe spelled it in correct english.
Greetings Miraculixx
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 16:27:42
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| I would say Corellon is Gruumsh's greatest enemy, but Corellon has much bigger enemies. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:12:04
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While gods can heal themselves, certainly, they are restricted by the very nature of their divinity.
Because people believe the myth that Tyr's hand was bit off by Kezef, Tyr cannot therefore restore his hand.
Because everyone "knows" that Gruumsh only has one eye, he cannot change that aspect of himself in his guise as Gruumsh.
With gods, collective belief shapes the god's form, temperament, and possibly even his chronological continuity.
Now a god could disguise himself in such a way as to eliminate the infirmity. For instance Tyr could visit his flock in disguise as a sighted elderly woman with two hands. But his base form would remain blind and one-handed. Likewise, Gruumsh could appear to his human followers as two-eyed Talos. But his base Gruumsh appearance would remain unaltered, because that is what people believe him to look like.
Note that Gruumsh's myth is intimately linked to Corellon's which indicates that he may have started out in the Feywild. I think there may be an unrevealed myth to be told about his connection to the Feywild and the Fomorians, or possibly the Cyclopes. I wonder if Gruumsh started out as a Fomorian arch-fey. Or perhaps a cyclops that ascended to divinity. I wonder also if orcs in fact have some connection to the Feywild. It is said that Gruumsh created them, but did he do it before or after he abandoned the Feywild? Did he create them from whole cloth? Or did he corrupt some Feywild creature to make his orcs? Or did he leave the Feywild and find the orcs on some other material plane world altogether, from where they immigrated to Toril through portals in ancient times? Gruumsh is a very intriguing character to me, and I think there are a lot of interesting things yet to explore about him! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:13:13
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First, as far as the actual 'missing part', I'm with Wooly on this one. If a deity's true self is harmed (not an Avatar), the parts lost (including just blood) 'lessens' the deity - consider it a reduction in DvR, which is hard as hell to heal, similar to when a mortal loses ability points. As a rule of thumb, I would say that if no other actions are taken to heal or hinder healing - including loss of worshipers, etc - that a deity requires a full century to heal a single DvR point. So you can see how that can really piss-off a god. The size/amount lost would determine how much DvR is actually lost - limbs would count much more then an eye or gobs of blood.
Realize, that this is just a way for mortals to visualize what is really happening - we could not possibly comprehend these energies that are being thrown about and lost - deities are really little more then incredibly powerful balls of energy. Ergo, Corellon probably somehow damaged Gruumsh's senses during that fight, which left him susceptible to attacks on some other level. The eye is merely a mythological representation of that.
Second, Deities can appear any way they want, and Gruumsh can appear to have both eyes. Orcish society views wounds and scars as something to be proud of, and therefor he chooses to appear with the missing eye, which also helps to enrage his followers against the Elves. Note that he has appeared canonically as both a wounded orc (minus one eye), and a cyclops - a single eye set in the middle, which means he certainly can change his appearance.
HOWEVER, in their true, non-Avatar incarnations, when dealing with other gods, all such wounds are plainly evident, even if healed, and any mortals present will still see some sort of physical representation of this (and no two mortals see exactly the same thing, nor do the gods - that's canon, from Prince of lies). What we 'see' is really our minds interpretation of things we were never meant to be privy to.
Avatars can appear any way a god wants, even as another god (also from PoL), and even in front of other deities or their Avatars, but under normal circumstances, outside of the prime material, gods will normally meet 'face to face'. The true essence of a god is so much more powerful then an Avatar that an Avatar can be easily overcome, both physically and mentally, so most deities would not risk one of their Avatars thusly.
So when we 'see' a god in source or novel, it is usually under the circumstances where the characters are viewing the gods true essence, or as an Avatar when they want to impress someone (followers or enemies), so they will take the form mortal folks expect them to have. Although Gruumsh could appear as a handsome human male in an Armani suit, his followers would not be overly impressed by that, nor would his enemies fear it. The same is true with Tyr - his 'hand' (DvR) probably healed long ago, but since folks expect him to appear that way, he does. Normally such wounds teach valuable lessons in the religion's parables, which is another reason they may want to be viewed that way. It is also possible that another branch of religion pictures a god differently, so that two individuals with differing beliefs could see two completely different images. A god doesn't necessarily appear as it wants to, but as mortals expect it to (unless it makes an effort to appear differently). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 17:28:01 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:19:18
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Correction to the above. I forgot that Talos also always only had one-eye. While I think it possible that Gruumsh could appear to his followers in disguise as an orc with two eyes, or a dragon, or a tree if he liked, he was not able to restore his eye in his base form, or even in his aspect as the human god of storms and destruction.
Note that orcs claim vehemently that the elven myth about Corellon blinding Gruumsh is a lie. Orc myth maintains that Gruumsh always only ever had one eye. An intriguing possibility, which could lend credence to the idea that Gruumsh began as an ascended cyclops or a fomorian arch-fey. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:51:09
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I agree, which is why I added-in that part that a God's true form will always represent any wounds it has taken, even if the energies lost to those wounds have healed. Mortals present can be fooled by super-high level illusions, but the presence of any other god (even if merely inside the head of the mortal present) will see-through the illusion and the damage will still be apparent.
Obviously, since Gruumsh still has all the senses of any deity, the loss of the eye is negligible - he 'sees' just as well as any other god. The damage is a visible 'marker' and nothing more (like a scar on a human). I'm sure Tyr could make it appear he has two hands, and even use that faux-hand, but anyone with any 'true sight' would see that the sword or whatever is actually floating a few inches from his severed wrist.
This all relates back to the Great Tree/Great Wheel debate - mortals see or envision what they expect to see, nothing more, unless some powerful being is actively causing them to see something else. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to picture things, and how a mortal perceives things effects the way he can interact with them (which is why a Torillian human is unable to access certain planer paths available to mortals of other worlds).
I like to think of it along the lines of Neo in The Matrix movie - reality is nothing more then a 'program' written on top of a blank universe (by GOD, or whatever...), and if we could look beyond the 'illusion', we would see nothing more then complex energy patterns, similar to '1's and '0's Neo saw at the end of the movie. like that little kid told him, "You can't bend the spoon, that would impossible; you must first realize there is no spoon". That's how I picture magic working as well - people with 'the sight' can see the 'pattern' (The Weave, Vancian Glyphs, etc) and twist the energies to work their will, Someone like Elminster doesn't even need to concentrate to do this - he sees the 'real' universe all the time, which is why he doesn't even really need spells - he just 'does magic' at will. Once someone reaches that level - where they can see the energies around them - they have become demi-gods, or Exarchs in 4e terminology.
The world is an illusion, and we are but spectators.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 20:41:51 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 20:07:24
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| For the Corellon/Gruumsh thing I imagined it as a myth or legend of a very distorted original story in which both gods don't want to reveal the truth. It symbolized a power struggle in Faerie involving Corellon, Labelas and Gruumsh. Labelas is also called ''One Eyed'' and there are giant ruins (fomorians, Chronos?) in Arvandor. Gruumsh would be the shunned, kicked out part, and Labelas an echo from a time before the original fey inhabitants went insane or evil (possibly related to the Black Diamond myth?). That's why the gold elves are like Labelas in decline, people of the setting sun, once all noble. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4257 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 20:24:31
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Odin has only one eye as well...
I had, before, tied Odin to Labelas...and the Sun Elves were heading toward their own showdown just as the Asgardians were...
I barely remember any more details than that though... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 21:00:08
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I believe I've heard theories involving the Norse pantheon and the Sylvan one, and the fact that some of the Norse deities are Elves (Vanir), rather then Aesir (Asgardians), lends some credence to this.
So maybe Gruumsh = Lebalas = Odin, cast-out of Faerie long ago by the Vanir for some indiscretion, along with his followers (the unseelie fey). I had some of that covered in my Tablets of Destiny piece for the Elven Netbook, which I never finished. VERY controversial stuff - brother vs brother - and both the Orcs and Elves would consider it blasphemy and would stop at nothing to destroy it (including working together!)
The Lebalas thing doesn't really work for me, but the Gruumsh/Odin/Talos thing makes some sense. Humans would still venerate a human-looking aspect, while orcs would worship the ugly one.
It might be possible to work all the mythology together - Gruumsh and the other Goblin gods fought the Pharonic pantheon (Orcgate wars), and if the Egyptian gods have connections to the Vedic ones (which I surmised elsewhere), then we can even fall back on the theory that the Aesir are indeed the Asura of Vedic mythos.
Lots of fun ways to spin the cosmology.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 03:09:09
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| These are afterall just mythology and creation stories......just like any fantasy or other world "Grand Explanation" for all things..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 04:56:06
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In the End it comes down to what imperfect mortals understand about the deities, Ed has stated this a few times.
It is possible that Gruumsh always had one eye, it is possible he has two or more. The Elven lore and Orc lore does appear to indicate one eye was lost, however that could be non fact. As best as I recall no source book reported the battle (which I consider the best) and things with FR logo often change the past it clearly is possible that One eye was a result of the Elven deity. Standby for the next release *sighs* |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 06:11:57
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Gray Richardson wrote: "Note that Gruumsh's myth is intimately linked to Corellon's which indicates that he may have started out in the Feywild. I think there may be an unrevealed myth to be told about his connection to the Feywild and the Fomorians, or possibly the Cyclopes. I wonder if Gruumsh started out as a Fomorian arch-fey. Or perhaps a cyclops that ascended to divinity. I wonder also if orcs in fact have some connection to the Feywild. It is said that Gruumsh created them, but did he do it before or after he abandoned the Feywild? Did he create them from whole cloth? Or did he corrupt some Feywild creature to make his orcs?"
You know, there was a line in LotR (Fellowship of the Ring) that the orcs were created from elves who followed Saruman (or Gruumsh) and were corrupted. Might that be why they hate each other so much? It might tie into why Gruumsh was kicked out of the Feywild, too! If you add in the part about Araushnee seducing or making a deal with him, it makes SOO much sense!
And on the subject of Norse gods, maybe Gruumsh is Loki ;) ? I don't see him as Odin, but Loki would certainly fit. Corellon would likely be Thor, of course. Two warring sides of the same coin, as it were. Perhaps Odin split in two, and Gruumsh/Loki is the ousted darker "One-Eye" part, with Corellon/Thor being the wise and noble side. Just a thought...
The 2nd ed FR book Demihuman Deities DID mention the battle, as did the book Evermeet, and I believe the 2nd ed books Faiths and Pantheons and Monster Mythology did too. In fact, Demihuman Deities had a nice portrait of the battle on the cover!! There was a 2nd ed Planescape book that might have mentioned it, too, with all the pantheons in it, but I forget the title...
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 07:06:06
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Well, it is said that elves (or eladrin) sprang from the drops of blood spilled by Corellon from his wounds incurred in that battle with Gruumsh. I imagine that once Corellon had his own race of people to worship him, Gruumsh would have been sorely envious and covet a race of his own.
I would not put it past Gruumsh to have captured some of Corellon's elves and corrupted them. Although that seems a bit Tolkienesque to me. Instead, Gruumsh may have simply tried his hand at an independent creation. Either he was a poor artist (possibly because of his poor eyesight), and the orcs reflect a botched, hideous imitation of elves; or Gruumsh was a talented artist, and orcs are a perfect realization of Gruumsh's aesthetic, paragons of the humanoid ideal--according to Gruumsh.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 16:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Well, it is said that elves (or eladrin) sprang from the drops of blood spilled by Corellon from his wounds incurred in that battle with Gruumsh. I imagine that once Corellon had his own race of people to worship him, Gruumsh would have been sorely envious and covet a race of his own.
I would not put it past Gruumsh to have captured some of Corellon's elves and corrupted them. Although that seems a bit Tolkienesque to me. Instead, Gruumsh may have simply tried his hand at an independent creation. Either he was a poor artist (possibly because of his poor eyesight), and the orcs reflect a botched, hideous imitation of elves; or Gruumsh was a talented artist, and orcs are a perfect realization of Gruumsh's aesthetic, paragons of the humanoid ideal--according to Gruumsh.
I like the latter idea, myself. And isn't part of the orcish antipathy for elves based on the fact that elves got all the good real estate first, leaving the orcs the crappy neighborhoods? That would also indicate -- if it's true; it could just be self-justification -- that orcs came into existence after elves. |
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Miraculixx
Acolyte
Germany
19 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 17:08:21
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Hello again,
many thanks, for the answers you all posted. However i like the explanation from "Markustay" the best.(the comparison with the movie "The Matrix" is really good, thanks for that one :) )
One other question remains then, what do you mean with DvR? Divine rank, which was stated in an official rule book, which described the gods and their power in a divine ranking system?
many thanks again
Miraculixx |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 02:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And isn't part of the orcish antipathy for elves based on the fact that elves got all the good real estate first, leaving the orcs the crappy neighborhoods? That would also indicate -- if it's true; it could just be self-justification -- that orcs came into existence after elves.
A good point. I think orcs, if they were created by Gruumsh were very probably created sometime after the elves came into existence. At least with respect to the Forgotten Realms. We know that orcs are interlopers to the Realms, and we know they arrived sometime after the elves arrived in Faerûn. Where did they come from? An orc world somewhere? Another crystal sphere? Maybe. Or maybe they were created by Gruumsh in Nishrek, and then sent down to Toril from there. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 22:54:06
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I REALLY need to finish The Tablets of Fate piece.
In that, I have it where the two (half) brothers - Cor'Ellon & Gru-Mass - rebelled against their mother Titiana and lead their own people - the Aelves - to a far-off corner of the Feywild called Faerie where they built a city of their own on an island off the coast (Tintageer).
The reason for the 'sundering' with their Fey (Le'Shay) forbears was the nature of the Unseelie-Fey, whom Gru-Mass (literally, 'Wild Spirit') was kin to (through his father). Fey tended to take shapes - and all true fey can change shape at will - that reflect their nature. The Unseelie preferred to take the visages of monstrous creatures, both hideous and malformed, while the Seelie tended to take forms that were both majestic and aesthetically pleasing.
Titiana had felt the Unseelie Fey were too 'feral' with their bestial shapes, and were prone to trickery and malicious behavior. Not wishing to be forced into acting against their nature, the Unseelie chose to leave Titania's domain, and Gru-Mass lead them away. Cor'Ellon, whom loved his brother very much (back then), took his brother's side against his mother and went with his brother, leading his own people from Titania's Court as well.
Many centuries past, and the two brothers became worshiped by their people (causing their ascendancy), but the rift between the Unseelie, who's behavior grew even worse without Titania's guiding hand, and the peaceful, beautiful followers of Corellon grew ever greater. The final act that forced the friction into open conflict was the betrayal of Araushnee - cousin to both brothers (daughter of the Raven Queen) and paramour to Corellon. He caught her in the arms of his brother, and the two fought, and Corellon managed to destroy Gruumsh's eye in the battle, forcing him to flee.
Afterward, Corellon realized Araushnee had manipulated them both, but it was too late, and Gruumsh fled Tintageer and went into the mountains to dwell with his kinfolk, the Unseelie fey. Forevermore would the Humanoids (Unseelie) feel nothing but hatred for the Eladrin (Seelie), whom denied them their right to dwell in Tintageer and know the trappings of civilization, while their leader - their god - was maimed by 'the betrayer' (their own way of seeing things, mind you).
Time past, and the stories became twisted remnants of the truth, and the two groups split again, and yet again, for such was the decree of Titania from the beginning - "Let all those who seek division among The people forever know the heartbreak of divisiveness".
And so it was, and so it yet will be, until the Elves return home to Titania's Court.
Anyway, thats the highly-abbreviated version of the tale. I covered the Lolth stuff and the Elves/High Elves (Eladrin) separation as well (which needs to be slightly modified now to take into account the entries in the GHotR).
quote:
Originally posted by Miraculixx
One other question remains then, what do you mean with DvR? Divine rank, which was stated in an official rule book, which described the gods and their power in a divine ranking system?
YES, I try to make whatever I write work within the framework of the rules. I don't really like using such meta-gaming wordage as 'DvR' when discussing the divine, but I need to quantify what I am saying within game terms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Aug 2010 23:07:19 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:16:18
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Agreed with the above. The injuries suffered by gods are symbolic and transcend mere flesh wounds. They are elements which add definition to the divine identity, yet also impose limitations on abilities or power.
Most Faerûnian powers can form avatars which appear as they choose, with or without missing limbs and organs. But their true injury is likely always somehow symbolically represented. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:23:15
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| I see the stories about the gods and how they became enemies, etc... as lessons mortals teach their youth (similar to real worl mythology, greek gods etc...). Although in FR, some of it has some truth to it, its the reasoning behind the stories that are important. Corellon may or may not have taken out Gruumsh's eye, for example, but the story about it serves the orcs as a reminder that elves are a sworn enemy, and to the elves, it reminds them about the orcs, their cruelty, and that a blade to the eye is a great way to take them out |
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Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:32:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You know, there was a line in LotR (Fellowship of the Ring) that the orcs were created from elves who followed Saruman (or Gruumsh) and were corrupted.
To be presice the myth is that the orcs where once elves tortured and corrupted by Melkor. Saruman just mentions it. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:37:22
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Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage.
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 16:10:58
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| Tolkien's extensive writings included several different versions of orc genesis, of which only one is mentioned in the LotR books. I would personally consider The Silmarillion a better source for this particular information. Of course, Tolkien's books are riddled with inconsistent, contradictory, erroneous, mismatched, and unfinished passages, although many of these have been amended over the years. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 16:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I REALLY need to finish The Tablets of Fate piece.
In that, I have it where the two (half) brothers - Cor'Ellon & Gru-Mass - rebelled against their mother Titiana and lead their own people - the Aelves - to a far-off corner of the Feywild called Faerie where they built a city of their own on an island off the coast (Tintageer).
The reason for the 'sundering' with their Fey (Le'Shay) forbears was the nature of the Unseelie-Fey, whom Gru-Mass (literally, 'Wild Spirit') was kin to (through his father). Fey tended to take shapes - and all true fey can change shape at will - that reflect their nature. The Unseelie preferred to take the visages of monstrous creatures, both hideous and malformed, while the Seelie tended to take forms that were both majestic and aesthetically pleasing.
Titiana had felt the Unseelie Fey were too 'feral' with their bestial shapes, and were prone to trickery and malicious behavior. Not wishing to be forced into acting against their nature, the Unseelie chose to leave Titania's domain, and Gru-Mass lead them away. Cor'Ellon, whom loved his brother very much (back then), took his brother's side against his mother and went with his brother, leading his own people from Titania's Court as well.
Many centuries past, and the two brothers became worshiped by their people (causing their ascendancy), but the rift between the Unseelie, who's behavior grew even worse without Titania's guiding hand, and the peaceful, beautiful followers of Corellon grew ever greater. The final act that forced the friction into open conflict was the betrayal of Araushnee - cousin to both brothers (daughter of the Raven Queen) and paramour to Corellon. He caught her in the arms of his brother, and the two fought, and Corellon managed to destroy Gruumsh's eye in the battle, forcing him to flee.
Afterward, Corellon realized Araushnee had manipulated them both, but it was too late, and Gruumsh fled Tintageer and went into the mountains to dwell with his kinfolk, the Unseelie fey. Forevermore would the Humanoids (Unseelie) feel nothing but hatred for the Eladrin (Seelie), whom denied them their right to dwell in Tintageer and know the trappings of civilization, while their leader - their god - was maimed by 'the betrayer' (their own way of seeing things, mind you).
Time past, and the stories became twisted remnants of the truth, and the two groups split again, and yet again, for such was the decree of Titania from the beginning - "Let all those who seek division among The people forever know the heartbreak of divisiveness".
And so it was, and so it yet will be, until the Elves return home to Titania's Court.
Anyway, thats the highly-abbreviated version of the tale. I covered the Lolth stuff and the Elves/High Elves (Eladrin) separation as well (which needs to be slightly modified now to take into account the entries in the GHotR).
Wow, is there any chance we'll ever see The Tablets of Fate in their entirety? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 17:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage.
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves.
It ties into the creation myth in which both orcs and elves were born from the blood spilt of their respective deities during that first titanic clash between them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 18:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves.
I rather like the myth that Corellon and Gruumsh were fellow members of Faerie, whose conflict began as jealousy over chaos-loving Araushnee (Lolth), who purposefully used her charms to set them against one another. Gruumsh lost the battle and was cast out of Faerie to become what he is today. Corellon "won" the conflict, only to face her eventual betrayal--in that case, he had the wisdom to recognize, finally, that she meant him ill, so he cast her out.
I find this myth particularly interesting in that it leads you to think about what might have come to pass had it gone the other way, and Gruumsh had won. Would he and Lolth be allies now, or would she have devoured him like a black widow and increased her power substantially?
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Tolkien's extensive writings included several different versions of orc genesis, of which only one is mentioned in the LotR books. I would personally consider The Silmarillion a better source for this particular information. Of course, Tolkien's books are riddled with inconsistent, contradictory, erroneous, mismatched, and unfinished passages, although many of these have been amended over the years.
Fun thing to consider: as I understand it, the cross-over with elves and orcs in Tolkien's work seems to come from their mention in Beowulf, in which no clear distinction is made. No one really knows what an "elf" or an "orc" is--they're both listed as monsters, and in such a way they might be more or less the same thing. This, I think, is why Tolkien did what he did, making orcs and elves closely related.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 04 Feb 2011 18:47:32 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 19:34:34
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Oddly enough the current (again, core) backstory seems to imply that Araushnee's betrayal was caused by her having an infatuation with Gruumsh(girls like bad boys), whom she is said to have "dallied with" before he and Corellon finally threw down. Then again, the article also states that Gruumsh has never seriously hurt Corellon, implying that corrupting Lolth was the major wound he inflicted, to match his loss of an eye, where as a later article in Dragon mentioned that Corellon only managed to beat Gruumsh by the third fey deity who's name I can't remember creating a distraction at the critical moment, contradicting certain aspects of the previous article.
Of course, 4e is very, very big on making contradictory backstories for the deities. Its all murky myth and the truth is never certain. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 19:49:56
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Not to *totally* derail the thread, but if you read Tolkien's personal letters on the subject, you can see that his conception of the Elves and Goblins/Orks was really kind of allegorical in nature (this, despite the fact that he detested allegory). He saw Elves as the embodiment of what he called the 'sub-creative impulse'; the desire of those who know themselves to be created beings to mimic the act of their creation. Since Elves were very close to the original act of Creation, they had a perfect understanding of the sub-creative, and this is why items of elvish make were 'magical', when in truth the Elves used no magic at all (you'll recall Galadriel admonishing Sam of this when he said he wanted to see 'Elvish Magic'). Orcs, on the other hand, were really the inverse of the Elves; being ripped from their connection with Creation and the Creator and having a twisted false creator take his place, they turned their energies to destruction and mauling anything fair and good. And again, while Tolkien(in his own words) despised allegory, he loved allegorical language and realized that you can't write a mythos without it; both the Elves and the Orcs were present to act as foils to humanity.
As this pertains to FR, I'm using a version of MT's Fey Cosmogeny, influenced by Tolkien's Elven mythos: In any case, some El'Ves left Tintageer fairly early on, deciding that they didn't want to be under Titania's curse, and that if they forsook Cor and Gru they could escape it; these became the forebears of the Green elves in Faerun today. The Elves who stayed either interbred with or were 'enlightened by' their El'Adrin overlords and became known as El'Dar; these are the ancestors of today's Gold and Silver Elves. If you go with all of that, it makes sense to think of High Magic as that 'Sub-Creative Perfection' of the early High Elves (or Eldar or Eladrin, or whatever you want them to be in your game). |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 04 Feb 2011 19:51:23 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 20:35:36
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| Oh, and to bring it back to the OP, it's always been my thought that various 'maimed' Powers allow their 'handicaps' to remain because it brings them closer to their mortal followers; it shows that they, too can suffer setbacks and persevere. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:50:59
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| There's another bit relavent to the op; in the deities and demigods article regarding 4e core Bahamut, it's mentioned that most of his human(oid) followers don't actually believe he's a dragon anymore than Moradin is a dwarf; its a symbol. People assign myth's about Gruumsh One-Eye because the image of a single eye always watching you invokes fear. They believe Tyr is a one handed god because the image of someone who has lost limbs in the pursuit of justice makes him seem more relatable. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Some problems i have with the gods in lore
