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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 05:28:37
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Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Elminster Must Die (part of "The Sage of Shadowdale" saga), by Ed Greenwood. Please discuss chapters 32 - 36 and the epilogue herein.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Aug 2010 16:24:28
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 15:51:47
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So, the first of Ed's books to really end on a "cliffhanger" ending. Though the ending of SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR made it pretty clear that there HAD to be more, about the major characters.
I don't want to ruin the book for those who haven't made it this far yet, and besides, we are left with a debate none of us can "win" or solve: is she, or isn't she?
I'll just leave it at that for now.
I'm sure others will weigh in, spoilers or not.  |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 13:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
So, the first of Ed's books to really end on a "cliffhanger" ending. Though the ending of SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR made it pretty clear that there HAD to be more, about the major characters.
I don't want to ruin the book for those who haven't made it this far yet, and besides, we are left with a debate none of us can "win" or solve: is she, or isn't she?
I'll just leave it at that for now.
I'm sure others will weigh in, spoilers or not.
I wouldn’t say it is a ‘cliffhanger ending’, more of a ‘teaser ending’. Did anyone get the sense that some material was cut out from the novel? Especially towards the end when a certain Lord returns? |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Denyer
Acolyte
United Kingdom
1 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 20:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
Did anyone get the sense that some material was cut out from the novel? Especially towards the end when a certain Lord returns?
From that point (chapter 33 onwards) it's a staccato series of passages. It's a generalisation, but endings of the WotC-marked Realms books I've read don't seem to have been as well-edited as those whilst TSR was still a brand.
Leaving in the bringing back of two well-known characters in this short space didn't really help the ending of this one, in my opinion, although rendering the titular one non-corporeal does makes sense for the revelation afterwards.
Indeed, marketable names will probably all transpire to have become trapped in a magical gewgaw for a century (very Scotty in Next Gen) or have entered benign undeath, so that they can undergo shorter or longer periods of culture shock at losing almost everyone they knew, before throwing themselves into business as usual. Which either feels forced or depressing, depending on the writing angle and how quickly it's done.
Waiting for more isn't as uncomfortable as post-Chronicles/Legends DragonLance in the process of watching the Companions die off (though worse than Death of the Dragon and Blackstaff, insofar as those were triumphal endings) -- but still... it's more like a pause in a funeral service than eager anticipation for the next part of an adventure, even if the title is probably of a "...in order that X may live" type clue.
Someone else's review of The Ghost King put it better than I could;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R35BSYF3VHFOBQ/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm |
Edited by - Denyer on 07 Aug 2010 20:39:52 |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 07:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
So, the first of Ed's books to really end on a "cliffhanger" ending. Though the ending of SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR made it pretty clear that there HAD to be more, about the major characters.
I don't want to ruin the book for those who haven't made it this far yet, and besides, we are left with a debate none of us can "win" or solve: is she, or isn't she?
I'll just leave it at that for now.
I'm sure others will weigh in, spoilers or not.
Is she or isn't she and if she is then will she actually be returning to the Realms at large or are we going to be seeing a more permanent end given to her later?
I'm almost hopeful that she is, Storm should be relatively difficult to deceive on this issue but then again her abilities have deteriorated a decent amount. |
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IanVeers
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 14:39:03
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I'm not so sure about that one Masked, Storm is quite sharp indeed but even though she noticed something was different, she was rather quick to change her morals over the use of the ashes, not hesitating to use them without permission. Despite how fiercely she was opposed to it in the first place.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 03:38:42
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| She is....and I can't wait to see what she is going to do with El. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 12:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
She is....and I can't wait to see what she is going to do with El.
Don't forget the special abilities and the sneakiness of the main villain.
And for the record, I hope I'm wrong about the 'Voice'
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 19:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
She is....and I can't wait to see what she is going to do with El.
Don't forget the special abilities and the sneakiness of the main villain.
And for the record, I hope I'm wrong about the 'Voice'
Oh, Im not forgeting that, but if it turns out to be Manshoon fooling both Storm and El by impersonzating Mystra......I will put the novel down and walk away from the whole realms. It just would not fit all that's happened before between El, Storm and Manshoon.....they have a vast and deep history and know each other as well as any advisaries ever have in the realms. And since Manshoon could not help himself and had to announce to El, who was destroying him by proclaiming"it is I Manshoon!".....I think El and Strom now have their "antennae" up so to speak, now that they are aware of his presence and were not until then. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:15:49
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Oh, so the cockroach is REALLY in this book...hmmm...Somehow my excitement to read it drops to a certain degree, but gladly not to the point where I would all together abandon the idea of reading it.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:39:31
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It's him alright. Just the vampiric clone version. So if he dies, he dies.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:52:27
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| I spoke with Ed at Gen Con about the next book (Bury Elminster Deep), his plans for the Voice revealed in the epilogue, 'the cockroach,' and other things. I can't say much of substance--Ed usually only tells me just enough to nudge me where my incessant queries were headed, anyway--except that readers of the next book, when it comes out next year, will not be disappointed, but will be surprised, when at last all is revealed. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 07:58:00
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| The Voice is Cyric.....lol |
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IanVeers
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:35:55
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Drizztsmanchild Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 07:58:00
The Voice is Cyric.....lol
Believe me the thought has crossed my mind. It would be the most efficient way to manipulate El and Storm into doing the most heinous of acts. |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 19:46:27
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Hey, now, don't be giving Ed THOSE sort of ideas. Though I'm sure he's thought all of this through. One doesn't dance with deities lightly, if one is wise...and Ed is wise.
Wise and brilliant.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 19:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
Hey, now, don't be giving Ed THOSE sort of ideas. Though I'm sure he's thought all of this through.
Oh, Ed most certainly knows where he's going with this. I could almost see it, too, above the snickering as he told me what he was willing to reveal without spoiling the future for me. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 13:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I spoke with Ed at Gen Con about the next book (Bury Elminster Deep), his plans for the Voice revealed in the epilogue, 'the cockroach,' and other things. I can't say much of substance--Ed usually only tells me just enough to nudge me where my incessant queries were headed, anyway--except that readers of the next book, when it comes out next year, will not be disappointed, but will be surprised, when at last all is revealed.
I posted my theory in another scroll as well :
I dedided to hide this for those who do not want to speculate and be wide open for whatever Ed gives us.
My theory all along has been that when Killing Mystra, who was actually Midnight holding Mystra's essence, Midnight was actually killed. This released Mystra's essence instantly and uncontrolably, which then rolled over Faerun as the "blue fire" or spellpplague. It will (or may has, as of current time) many years to coalesce into enough of a state the the "old mystra" can re-emerge and begin to harness herself back into what she was before the time of troubles.(which will take many more years to complete with the help of her following chosen and followers to help her "remember herself".
This explains why magic still exists, because Mystra /the weave still exist and also explain why it is so unstable. While Mystra/Weave is still in existence, it is in shape to control and nourish the magic, so it is running wild.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 14 Aug 2010 18:36:42 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 13:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
The Voice is Cyric.....lol
If it is, I will be crushed. i'd love to see Bane murder him
Hid the rest for same reason as above
And my thoughts are in my previous post, but I think it's The "old Mystra".....
I understand Midnight was Mystra....but to my mind when I read it, she was always more of a vessel for Mystras essence, and not a "true deity'.....
And i cant see Storm refering to Mystra/Midnight as "Mother Mystra".....while El and Storm obviously respected her as their godess, they never had the same special bond with Midnight/Mystra as they did with Mystra. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 14 Aug 2010 18:37:58 |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 16:08:53
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Although I found myself indulging in the same sorts of speculations, Red, I then reached "the other" conclusion: that I don't WANT to know, beforehand, or even suspect.
I just want to read along for the ride, and see what Ed hands us. Probably several books down the road.
However, let's just say this much: that I won't be surprised if Storm and El sense something "wrong/off/different" about Mystra, in BURY ELMINSTER DEEP...
Yet no, I DON'T think it's M - - or C- - impersonating Our Lady of Mysteries, somehow...
I'm re-reading the book leisurely right now. WHAT a thoroughly enjoyable book. Both thumbs up! |
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geok1ng
Acolyte
Brazil
9 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 06:40:23
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I am less than impressed by this book. It does not have any of the 4th edition flavor of the pther novels. Were it not by the constatnt reminder of how powerful the characters were in the past, one could not find any difference from pre spellplague books.
And the formula of keeping old chars in play is repetitive: a princess of cormyr, a royal mage and a chosen all follow manshoons recipe for surviving the spellplague. Compare that with R.A Salvatore decision on Catt Brie and Regis.
And when "reviving" all those chars wasnt enough, the author brings back to game Mystra!?
Now that is in quite a contrast with the Blackstaff death, which was full of meaning, and without any route of escape of revival.
i loved the scene when stormserpent hires a playpretty to abuse and beaat up "no desfiguring , no flogging" "think about the 20 lions". It adds some spice to the character and helps the reader to hate him even more.
But Arclath Delcastle lost most of my respect on the dialogue on chapter 36, pages 338 to 339. First i was mildly amused to discover that the author wasnt brave enough to created a truly queer anti-hero. A gay noble swordsman without any morals would be a welcome addition to the line of sexual oriented chars of the novel. Oh, how i would love to see a Forgotten Realms Marquis de Sade, but Delcastle is already on the way to romantic love with Amarune. How i miss Pharaun Mizzrym, spoiled and sarcastic. |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 02:02:36
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And by contrast, I was more than impressed by this book.
I know the constraints Ed has to write under when doing Realms novels (that they must center on Elminster, included) and thought he did a great job, working within them, of bringing the setting to life, letting the reader get to know and spend time with a good dozen interesting new characters, and delivering a "good read" yarn. Yes, it ends on a cliffhanger, but I suspect he had little choice about that, given that this is the first of a six-book contract for "new Elminster novels."
geok1ng, as the guy who "wrote the bible" for the 4th Edition Wdeep books, Ed HAS to be well aware of the Spellplague and its effects. I think he did exactly as he was asked to do in this book: show longtime readers that Court politics in Cormyr hasn't actually changed all that much, and use particular characters (El and M).
I'm afraid you're simply wrong to say that a princess, a royal mage, and a Chosen all use M's recipe for surviving the spellplague. In fact, none of them did; all four of those characters have "survived" the near-century by quite different means. So have Catti-Brie and Regis: they have "survived," too (that is, for the author to be able to retrieve in future, if he wants to), in yet another way.
And I'm not so sure Mystra really is back - - but if she is, there's NO WAY Ed did that without the permission, and probably discussion and agreement with, Wizards of the Coast.
And as for sniping at Ed about not being "brave enough" to create a "truly queer anti-hero," you're also quite wrong there; I happen to know some of what was edited out of the Realms turnovers back in 1986, to conform to TSR's Code of Conduct, which expressly forbid openly homosexual characters (and actions). Although I agree that "A gay noble swordsman without any morals would be a welcome addition to the line of sexual oriented chars of the novel" I don't think that any author has committed a crime if they don't happen to read your mind and write the book, or character, you would like to see.
First of all, there is NO WAY any noble heir of Cormyr is going to have "no morals," because of the society they're raised in. Some of them may be thoroughly evil, yes, but what makes them noble isn't just birth, it's the code and etiquette (albeit changing) they are reared with, so morals they WILL have, unavoidably. I agree with you that Amarune and Arclath are well on the way to a romance - - but I suspect they're going to have many fiery exchanges, for years, not quickly sink into each other's arms with happy sighs.
Knocking a writer for not writing what you wanted them to write is legitimate only when the author has made prior agreement with you/all readers as to what will appear in a book. Ed hasn't done that.
Being as he is the creator of the Realms and its foremost expert, I think he is THE expert on what Realms flavor is like, 4th edition as before. I prefer to read his Realms novels as reports from a real place that just happens to exist in his head, not compare and contrast them with the works of others or to "my" standard.
Even if you feel differently, being as the sequel, BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, is already written, and Ed will probably be started on the third book before the end of this year, and that we're looking at a probable six-book series, I'd cut him a little slack before I judged his characters and his 4th Edition flavor.
It's always important to keep in mind that if a Realms novel author uses a major character (Elminster and Manshoon) or kills off a major character (Steven Schend, in BLACKSTAFF, which you cited), they need WotC's permission to do so. They aren't to "blame" as if they did this by stealth, behind our (or their editor's) backs. Trust me on this; I've made my living in publishing, mainly fantasy and sf, for years now.
It comes down to different tastes. The novel didn't work for you, but it very much worked for me.
Rushed as heck at the end, and Ed probably did overwrite and have to edit down like crazy, but on the other hand, we got a book that sure didn't drag at the end, unlike some of the Jordans and Goodkinds and others I could mention.
I'll be eagerly awaiting the next one.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:20:54
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snip....
"A gay noble swordsman without any morals would be a welcome addition to the line of sexual oriented chars of the novel".....
I think an interesting character is a welcome addition to the cast of any novel, and without a doubt he is an interesting character. What does his sexuality have to do with the novel? I think it easy to get sidetracked away from a great read looking for certain things and not just taking what the story gives. Until reading that it never occured to me to try and acertain any of the characters orentation! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Sith_Lord_Drizzt
Seeker
Canada
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 21:23:19
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| I loved this novel. many of Ed's novels have been a hit or miss with me but this one was fantastic! An awesome cliffhanger! I can't wait for the next novel!!!! |
"Jarlaxle's grin disappeared as he turned his attention to Drizzt. He watched the fury of the drow unleashed. Jarlaxle had seen Drizzt in action many times before, but never like that".
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 13:05:14
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An amazing novel by Ed. It was a mixed feeling reading about El, Storm and The Simbul, great to see them again, but just awful reading about how far they have fallen the past century. It really felt for them, and was teary-eyed in several parts of the novel. I felt Ed conveyed their lack of confidence in their abilities in a well written and heartfelt manner. I was very excited about seeing more of Mirt, Vangey and Mystra also of course. Seeing more of the interior of the Palace and Suzail itself was also a real treat :)
-Stig- |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 08:38:51
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| Ed has his own very distinct writing style. I personally love it but at times I find it hard to follow so I can see why some would not take to it. After recently reading through all of Tolkien's books (yes even the Silmarillion) I have noticed heavy influences from Tolkien in Ed's writing style. Where as Tolkien is very heavy on the description of landscapes and the setting in general, Ed fleshes out the characters in more detail in his writing. |
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Shadowaxe
Acolyte
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 09:08:36
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Finished ‘Elminster must die.’
An absolutely superb book.
Thank you Mr Ed Greenwood, please do not stop writing like this – what an inspiration to wanna-be-writers!
What an outstanding ending/teaser and set-up for the next (and the sly Old Mage got up close and personal to Storm too. Nice.)
Right, time to re-read…
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Mead, mead, from the honey bee,
How I long to drink thee. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 16:32:37
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I'll convey your post to Ed directly. I know he's finished and turned in the final draft of BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, the sequel (to be released next August), and has started on the third book of the six.
He's REALLY enjoying writing these - - and thus far, like you, I've REALLY enjoyed reading them.
love,
THO |
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Shadowaxe
Acolyte
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 17:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I'll convey your post to Ed directly. I know he's finished and turned in the final draft of BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, the sequel (to be released next August), and has started on the third book of the six.
He's REALLY enjoying writing these - - and thus far, like you, I've REALLY enjoyed reading them.
love,
THO
Tho, that is great to hear and means the [realm] to me!
You can tell that Ed is enjoying writing these; the fun shines through like a twinkling golden lion, flipped on high by Mirt - complete with cheeky grin and drinking breeches firmly on - and sparkling in the Faerunian sun's rays.
All I can say is bring on August, Bury Elminster Deep will be mine. O yes, it will be mine *Wayne's World smile on a Manshoon face* ...and I can't wait.
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Mead, mead, from the honey bee,
How I long to drink thee. |
Edited by - Shadowaxe on 14 Oct 2010 18:14:57 |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 01:22:46
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I just finished this book last night (I was on vacation when it arrived) and must say that I'm having VERY mixed reactions to the book.
It hurts to read about all the dead and gone characters that I loved so much in the FR before they were destroyed for marketing purposes. It hurts to see how powerless and down trodden El, Storm, & the Simbul are too. And I'm elated with the ending because it makes me hope that possibly a lot of our refusals to buy 4E Shattered Realms stuff has made the WotC bean counters see the light, and perhaps they are trying to lure us back in by regenerating the Realms (sort of).
At the same time, I thought those scenes with a certain Lord were a bit contrived, and the main villain of this book is pretty much a caricature of an "evil villain". Did anyone else see that? I mean he always has been, but here it's "oooh I'm so powerful, everyone else is a play thing... wait for it, wait for it... BOOM! Hahaha it is 'I'" and then blast, he's gone for the rest of this book.
Don't know, I loved it and disliked parts of it for sure. I would love if some of the theories posted earlier are correct... |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 03:53:20
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Thente, I agree with you about the caricature of an evil villain, and talked about that with Ed at the last Phantasm - - and he said the character in question acts like that because he's flat-out mad, and that there's a reason for that madness the character is unaware of, and that readers won't see until the third book. (And no, he told me, it's not "too many clones active, making all of them mad.")
Which made me revise my opinion of those scenes a lot. Ed is playing a deeper game here than I, and a lot of others, gave him credit for!
Malcolm |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 21:37:22
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| Ed is always playing a 'Deep Game'... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Elminster Must Die -- Chapters 32 - 36 & Epilogue
