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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 23:00:52
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| id love to see more of a backstory to the shadow dragons. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 02:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Idamar of Thay
I would love to see the rise to power of many popular villains. The early life of Szass Tam and his eventual mastery and transformation into an undead. Jarlaxle's clever manipulation in forming Bregan D'Aerthe.
And if authors are reluctant to dig too much in villain's past, lest is break their mystique (I'd like to call it, Pulling a Darth Vader), another interesting ideas would be a story based on popular sentient monsters. I would love to peer deeper into Beholder societies, the work of Illithids, etc... The Blood War itself deserves a good novel of two.
The Planescape series has a Blood Wars Trilogy published in the late 90's written by J. Robert King. I haven't read them so i'm not sure if they are GOOD or not 
They're an alright series of books, but aren't entirely indicative of the PLANESCAPE setting.
That being said, they offer some fascinating insights into the function and scope of the Blood War itself.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 23:02:59
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I haven't yet read the trilogy. It sounds interesting, specially the second book, Abyssal Warriors. The reviews are mostly good, too. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 01:10:27
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| Definitely have to go with Halaster & Szass Tam. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 07:33:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Definitely have to go with Halaster & Szass Tam.
I wonder, if they meet and strike a certain bargain, what could it be? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 09:04:02
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I don't see either of them willing to work together with the other, to be honest. Kinda like the old Magneto and Doctor Doom team-ups in the Marvel Universe.
They'd spend just as much time plotting against each other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 10:00:27
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Szass Tam once worked for Larloch. So I don't see why Halaster and Tam cannot work together, even for a very short time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 10:18:31
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Halaster would have made Tam his *****.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 23 Oct 2011 10:24:53 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 10:23:56
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On second thought, Halaster would make Tam an attraction on one of the "hard levels" of Undermountain.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 12:53:15
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Nah. Clearly you have low regard to the lich who single-handedly defeated 7 zulkirs and drastically transformed Thay. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 15:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah. Clearly you have low regard to the lich who single-handedly defeated 7 zulkirs and drastically transformed Thay.
Halaster is too crazy for his own good, Tam all the way |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 15:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah. Clearly you have low regard to the lich who single-handedly defeated 7 zulkirs and drastically transformed Thay.
 Fanboy!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 15:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah. Clearly you have low regard to the lich who single-handedly defeated 7 zulkirs and drastically transformed Thay.
Halaster is too crazy for his own good, Tam all the way
Ao only knows the extent of destruction Halaster would have caused had he been as mad as Cyric. Maybe he's Cyric's Secret Chosen.
A question to all:
Auppenser's portfolios include serenity, which by extension also includes sanity. [One can't be mad and serene at the same time, right?!] If he were "awake," would he be able to cure Halaster's madness? Or had his insanity reached the point where no amount of divine or arcane magic could ever fix it? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 Oct 2011 14:32:41 |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 12:32:56
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| Was not Halaster touched by Shar? I thought that's what drove him mad. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 12:46:42
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His various magical experiments were the cause of his insanity, which worsened when he burrowed in Undermountain. Perhaps Shar's touch intensified it that it became [nearly] impossible to heal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 14:30:31
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People who are mad might have moments of clarity, which probably fall under the definition of "serenity."
Halaster is an interesting case. I wonder if we'll learn more about him . . . ahem.
I'm glad to see one of my threads alive after all these years. I really do think a "Villains" series would be awesome.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 14:35:41
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Why not propose it to WotC, Erik? You may even write the first book. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 15:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why not propose it to WotC, Erik? You may even write the first book.
Makes me wonder how WoTC decides on their novel line productions. Do their regular authors come to them with ideas? Do execs sit around in a meeting and brainstorm? Curious |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:14:10
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A villains series would be nifty - especially if they did something akin to how Marvel had a "lets switch enemies" thingy as an on-going storyline.
Then, as in that story-arc, everyone finds out there is one 'big bad' behind it all, who is doing this for his own reasons (the culmination of the series - in the case of Marvel, the 'shadowy figure' turned out to be Loki).
I wonder why WotC has never tried this - tie together one of their one-off series (like The Fighters) with a connecting storyline? I think that would be rather cool. Almost like working in-reverse of what happens when some writers/series become super-popular - you get a few one-off prequels about individual characters (The Belgariad did this, and even WoT had one).
As for Halaster and Larloch - Halaster is NOT a villain; he was a madman. Now he is vaporized and his soul is shattered into myriad pieces.*
Halaster and Larloch are of equivalent power levels, and as we saw by the encounter between Larloch and Szass Tam, Tam knows he was woefully out-classed. Ergo, he would also be out classed by Halaster. I don't think even Tan Chin (Ambuchar Devyam, amongst other names), a contemporary of Hilather (Imaskari Halaster), has that kind of fire-power to compete with those two. Szass Tam would probably be able to challenge him, though, despite his age and unique form of Lichdom.
One must remember that the balance Ed achieved (and one that was further exemplified on a cosmic scale in the Planescape setting) is that there is always a 'bigger fish'. When you reach new heights of power, what you find is that you have now attracted the attention of beings far more powerful then you ever new before. And so it goes.
The only FR villain that would pose a threat to Larloch and Halaster was the Sojournor, IMHO, and technically he was 'of the planes', making him more of a cosmic-class threat, then a setting-specific one (although, apparently he was born of Toril, which raises some rather interesting questions).
*EDIT: For some reason, when I typed that, This Scene from Little Nicky came to mind - if you don't want to watch the whole clip, just jump to 1:39.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 16:37:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:30:21
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Halaster and Larloch are of same power levels?
Szass Tam has grown more powerful [and more ambitious] ever since his rise to Thay's sole sovereign. He has no chance of defeating Larloch, but he wouldn't be completely pathetic either.
Pitting Vhostym with Larloch would only result to Spellplague 2.0. I'd rather see them play chess, Toril and other planes being the board and their most powerful servants and spies being the pawns. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Nov 2011 16:34:24 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why not propose it to WotC, Erik? You may even write the first book.
Oh, I have. I even sent them a whole novel pitch (Scyllua Darkhope was my proposed villain, which should give you a sense of how long ago I floated the idea). They didn't go for it at the time, but who knows? Things might change.
Hearing from fans is often more effective than hearing from biased writers, btw.
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Makes me wonder how WoTC decides on their novel line productions. Do their regular authors come to them with ideas? Do execs sit around in a meeting and brainstorm? Curious
Wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't have any inside information. It's a combination of both, I expect.
In my experience, it's been that WotC needs a novel to fit a particular slot in a series, so they either hand-pick an author or send a limited call to a small pool of authors, then pick the pitch that fits best, and which they'd most like to read. The Book Department goes for quality of story as well as plot advancement in the overall IP.
Once an author is writing a series, it's simpler--they just go to that author and say "what happens next?", with the occasional plot points determined by the Department on the whole (i.e. RSEs needed to advance the IP, etc).
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why not propose it to WotC, Erik? You may even write the first book.
Oh, I have. I even sent them a whole novel pitch (Scyllua Darkhope was my proposed villain, which should give you a sense of how long ago I floated the idea). They didn't go for it at the time, but who knows? Things might change.
Hearing from fans is often more effective than hearing from biased writers, btw.
Then it's a good thing this thread is still alive. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:43:47
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@Dennis - sorry, I am unfamiliar with that setting.
Nearly all things post-3e I am unfamiliar with - I base my views upon what we knew 1e/2e/3e, and my knowledge of the Larloch/Halaster situation based upon what little Ed has let slip (and THO happily provided in some thread where I made an off-hand comment about the two, and received some revealing clues).
And the more things change, the more things stay the same. See my above comments on 'balance' - all you do when you accumulate power is place yourself in a new - and much harder - arena.
@Erik - damn dude, I knew I liked you for a reason () - female villains are the bomb, and sadly underrated in FR - they need more face-time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 16:46:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:49:53
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I like balance myself. But it's good and exciting to see things shake a bit every once in a while.
Larloch has always been the Great Untouchable. I'd like to see that change, even for just a moment.
And, oh, I agree, archvillainesses (like Lallara, Dmitra, Shyressa, and Lady Polaris) need some fair amount of novel time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Nov 2011 16:52:42 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 16:54:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dennis - sorry, I am unfamiliar with that setting.
Nearly all things post-3e I am unfamiliar with - I base my views upon what we knew 1e/2e/3e, and my knowledge of the Larloch/Halaster situation based upon what little Ed has let slip (and THO happily provided in some thread where I made an off-hand comment about the two, and received some revealing clues).
And the more things change, the more things stay the same. See my above comments on 'balance' - all you do when you accumulate power is place yourself in a new - and much harder - arena.
@Erik - damn dude, I knew I liked you for a reason () - female villains are the bomb, and sadly underrated in FR - they need more face-time.
I too enjoy a good female villian in my fantasy. What i don't like, however, is how nearly every critic out there slams the author when they use a female for that role. They always end up saying the author clearly has issues with his mother or hates women or other BS. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 17:09:07
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I heard that female villains are best done by female writers, since they know all there is to know about being a woman. I'm not so sure if I would agree to that, though. Some female authors created some interesting male villains. So if they can write effectively about characters of the opposite sex, then most likely the male authors can do the same. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 17:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I heard that female villains are best done by female writers, since they know all there is to know about being a woman. I'm not so sure if I would agree to that, though. Some female authors created some interesting male villains. So if they can write effectively about characters of the opposite sex, then most likely the male authors can do the same.
This is kind of a departure from the topic at hand, but yeah, writing female characters as a male writer opens you to a fair amount of criticism (in many cases justifiably) about portraying the feminine responsibly and realistically. It's easy to write about women from the outside only--what you can observe about their behavior and feelings--leading to them not being as developed as the male characters.
Speaking for myself, I consider myself a feminist writer in the sense of "I believe men and women are equal." As such, I strive to write believeable and compelling characters, male or female. Sometimes I have female characters who are "like that," but it's purposeful and to a distinct end. (Often using distracting behavior to deflect intimacy, avoid troublesome questions, etc.) Doesn't mean I always manage it, but I do make the effort.
(Side-note: I've actually had a few "male character sex-fantasy" things removed in the editing process. One memorable comment one of my editors gave me was "You seem to be focusing a lot on what [he] is wearing, or ISN'T wearing." Sigh. Alas being a male writer.  )
To get back to the topic, when writing a villain, it's particularly easy to fall into the trap of writing the character in a manner not as developed (3-dimensional) as your hero(es). This is partly because the villain tends to get a lot less screen-time compared to the heroes, and because a villain is defined by making the *wrong* choices in situations, thus deflecting sympathy. I find writing villains fascinating, and I like to think they shine in my work, but that's really for readers to decide.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I've actually had a few "male character sex-fantasy" things removed in the editing process. One memorable comment one of my editors gave me was "You seem to be focusing a lot on what [he] is wearing, or ISN'T wearing." Sigh. Alas being a male writer.
That reminds me of Matthew Stover. Some readers said he might have some sexuality issues because he is somewhat giving more focus than necessary to the nudity of his male characters. I can't attest to his SW novels, but in his MtG book, that is rather the case. [Though that novel is really good.]
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To get back to the topic, when writing a villain, it's particularly easy to fall into the trap of writing the character in a manner not as developed (3-dimensional) as your hero(es). This is partly because the villain tends to get a lot less screen-time compared to the heroes, and because a villain is defined by making the *wrong* choices in situations, thus deflecting sympathy. I find writing villains fascinating, and I like to think they shine in my work, but that's really for readers to decide.
What do you think about writing "mastermind" villains? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 22:04:12
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What if you were to write a character that is sexually... ambiguous... there are certain types of women that tend to act more like a guy then a female. Or would that be considered wrong on some level? To portray a 'butch' lesbian in the same manner you would portray a male villain? I have seen authors portray male villains as 'effeminate', so why wouldn't it work the other way around?
And I am sorry in advance if anyone takes offense to any of that - I tried to be as 'PC' as possible, but the rules change so much I can't be sure when someone will take something the wrong way. If you feel offended, please PM me for a LONG list of gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc friends of mine who will vouch for me.
Now that I think about it, why couldn't a female knight save the damsel-in-distress, or rescue the princess? (and receive the much-deserved reward smooch). I am sure Ed has thought of it, and probably even used it. Unfortunately I have a feeling I know what Erik (and maybe Ed and others) will respond to this post... not as long as Hasbro is in charge. {sigh}
And yet they make G.I. Joe - talk about double standards. before I get myself in trouble I'll just leave that one alone.
On the lighter side, the last couple of posts made me imagine what it would be like if we had FR Romance novels... I can actually picture Fabio on the covers as some pirate lord, Calishite sheik, Illuskan trader, or Sembian merchant-prince. <gag>
It also reminds me of a joke about Robin Hood, which may not be suitable here (although its pretty tame).
Now back to our regularly scheduled topic....
I see what Erik is saying about the villains not getting enough face-time, and one solution might be a good work-around for several reasons. Take Paul kemp's novels - who is the villain in his first trilogy? We know of the main one, but are the rest 'good guys'? Far from it. Not everything in the RW is black & white, so why should it always be that way in fantasy? bad guys can wear white hats once in awhile.
If the reader has to ask himself at the end of the book, "Did the right guy win?" then that is a novel worthy of praise IMHO. I think you've managed to catch a bit of that before Erik. It also solves the problem of face-time when everything isn't black & white - give them equal time and let the reader figure it out. Even Marvel comics has done story-lines where the bad guys wore the white hats, and vice-versa. Szass Tam may have some embarassing moments in his past he'd like everyone to forget, as well Manshoon (who I've seen be emotionally attached to someone), and many others I can think of. Craulnober(sp?) jumps right to mind - a true villain, and yet, still ambiguous. There also those two Zhents featuring in the end of Blackstaff (forget their names - sorry) - there's an interesting villain-story right there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2011 00:13:19 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 22:27:30
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MT, I think you and I agree on the grayness of fantasy. I rather like it.
And one has to be careful regarding portraying sexually complex characters. If a man writing female characters is a responsibility hand grenade, then anyone writing sexually complex characters is more like a H-bomb.
My efforts to the contrary (and I *have* done the female knight saving the princess thing, both in FR and my creator-owned work), FR hasn't been very progressive in that respect. That's changing though, I think for the better.
Shall we head back to the topic of villains?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Villains Series
