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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 18:51:46
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Aginor...you left out one important character even in your spoilers. "Barrabus the Gray". I put his name in quotes for a reason...though I won't spoil anything here. Suffice to say if you thought there were many loose ends to be tied up, Salvatore does indeed finish up some stories, and also begins some new ones. But most important of all for me reading this book was the one storyline that he may have begun all over again involving "Barrabus the Gray".
Very worth the read. Best Drizzt book in awhile. |
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Zu-l-karnain
Acolyte
Russia
6 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 19:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zu-l-karnain
One question-what happens to Jarlaxle? He once again departs with Athrogate for future journeys?
Just will reiterate my question. |
Through destiny and might we shall rule supreme |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 20:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zu-l-karnain
quote:
Originally posted by Zu-l-karnain
One question-what happens to Jarlaxle? He once again departs with Athrogate for future journeys?
Just will reiterate my question.
Basically. Although it's clear confrontations will most likely be coming in the next 2 books. |
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Aginor37
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 23:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
Aginor...you left out one important character even in your spoilers. "Barrabus the Gray". I put his name in quotes for a reason...though I won't spoil anything here. Suffice to say if you thought there were many loose ends to be tied up, Salvatore does indeed finish up some stories, and also begins some new ones. But most important of all for me reading this book was the one storyline that he may have begun all over again involving "Barrabus the Gray".
Very worth the read. Best Drizzt book in awhile.
Oh believe me, I didn't forget... I just didn't want to spoil every single plot point, and that was probably my biggest surprise, so I wanted to leave it for anyone reading the book to have that "holy crap" moment. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 02:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Aginor37
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
Aginor...you left out one important character even in your spoilers. "Barrabus the Gray". I put his name in quotes for a reason...though I won't spoil anything here. Suffice to say if you thought there were many loose ends to be tied up, Salvatore does indeed finish up some stories, and also begins some new ones. But most important of all for me reading this book was the one storyline that he may have begun all over again involving "Barrabus the Gray".
Very worth the read. Best Drizzt book in awhile.
Oh believe me, I didn't forget... I just didn't want to spoil every single plot point, and that was probably my biggest surprise, so I wanted to leave it for anyone reading the book to have that "holy crap" moment.
As Barrabus himself did. It had to happen sooner or later. I'm just surprised it took as long as it did (by that I mean how many years) |
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Silverblade The Enchanter
Seeker
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 14:12:33
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Spoilers...well been so many by now....
I was suspecting Barrabus was...a certian assassin, WAY before the ned, more liek 1/3rd way through I was reasonably sure. hehe
I haven't read the book where Entreri becomes a Shade or semi-shade? I've heard of it but I do not know any details, anyone enlighten me please? :)
Breunor and Pwent's death are heart breaking, sigh. Maybe it's me being Scottish, lol, but I much MUCH preffer dwarves as characters: stuff all them poncy elves, gimmie beer an' battle axes, me buckos!! ;)
And over the years got very fond of those pair, and others, even Athrogate, so while a true end for such noble folk was fitting indeed...it was utterly gut wrenching :(
I hope they all meet up again in some fair afterlife in the end, all the group, together, is that what Salvatore is suggesting in that final scene for Bruenor?
I found the rape etc of the elven fighter as a child just ugly, not everyone needs usch horrors to rebound off of to become "great". As a man I find such portayals unfair as many of us sure as hell do not get off on such stuff, despite what's thought we're often actually big softies, and raw passion is NOTHING to do with rape. Rape is on the same par with cold blooded murder and torture for degree of foulness.
"Grittiness" doesn't have ot include paedophilia and child murder. Sorry, I enjoy the Realms for HEROIC fiction, horrors occur, you do nto have to detial 'em of insinuate they are necessary for heroism (see Entreri's back ground, too).
Somefolk in RL do the most heroic, hounourable, kind things, folk you wouldn't expect, too eays to focus ont he evil and sucmmy folk, and forget the amazing acts of kindness etc folk do, way once rotten criminals become decent etc...on that I hope jarlaxle and Arthrogate become good heroes, the true elgacy of Drizzt being nobility of spirit.
Also, as an odd thing, as usual, it's about fighters...ahem, wizards are not all evil, stupid or incompetant!! A good wizard would have helped those characters enormously, but wizards ain't "deus ex machina" whihc some writers maybe fear the are.
I love the way 4th ed has worked them into "controllers of the flow of battle", not "Godzilla-minsters" hehe :p
huge change of pace etc in this book, like the death of Deudermont, the novel's have lost their "innocence" and charm, which may not be a good thing
I hope he runs the trilogy well |
www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Spelljammer & Dark Sun art, and much more! |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 06:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I haven't read the book where Entreri becomes a Shade or semi-shade? I've heard of it but I do not know any details, anyone enlighten me please? :)
That was as short story "The Curious Sword" in the Realms of Shadow collection. |
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Silverblade The Enchanter
Seeker
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 15:14:14
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Merrith
thank you :)
need to add it to me "wishlist" ;) |
www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Spelljammer & Dark Sun art, and much more! |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 01:48:02
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| I'm about halfway through and making snarky comments as I read it... but does anyone else here have a dislike for Dhalia? I'm finding her an awful character, scarred past or no. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 02:05:07
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SPOILERs:
quote:
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I hope they all meet up again in some fair afterlife in the end, all the group, together, is that what Salvatore is suggesting in that final scene for Bruenor?
It would appear that only Drizzt's immediate, closest friends (The Companions of the Hall) have been earmarked for this pocket paradise of Iruladoon.
It is kinda weird why Pwent didn't rate the same paradise as Bruenor. Perhaps he did head off to see Moradin, as Bruenor speculated.
Or, as a really wild speculation, maybe that vampire bite didn't exactly kill Pwent at all. Maybe he's coming back as a vamp-dwarf!
But Bob wouldn't do that, would he? He wouldn't do that to the poor Pwent, would he?
quote:
I found the rape etc of the elven fighter as a child just ugly, not everyone needs usch horrors to rebound off of to become "great". [...]
That's true, but I don't think Bob is trying to focus on simple tales of good guys going through good childhoods and good training to go on to do good things. He's been accused of writing an overly "great" guy already, as it is!
I don't think that it was her horrors that made her great. She's an elf; that's enough right there, already. Throw in effective training and a cool weapon, and she's scary good.
I think that what her terrible past did was to skew her perspective into thinking that she would need to seek out an evil organization to get the opportunity and encouragement to vent her anger and thirst for vengeance. That's not "great" at all.
It was good to read that her eyes were opened to the possibility of being great in a more wholesome group. Let's hope she intends to stay.
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"Grittiness" doesn't have ot include paedophilia and child murder.
Remember that in medieval times, 12 years old wasn't necessarily considered to be a child or kid. Obviously, young Dahlia was plenty mature enough physically to conceive offspring, herself. In past eras, that was the prime consideration--not psychological maturity.
It was actually quite surprising to read that Catti-brie was in her twenties before she had her first serious relationship and got engaged to Wulfgar, and in her thirties before getting married to Drizzt. I'd expect more tales of young love from Realms works, rather than this sort of modern portrayal of a relationship.
quote:
Sorry, I enjoy the Realms for HEROIC fiction, horrors occur, you do nto have to detial 'em of insinuate they are necessary for heroism (see Entreri's back ground, too). [...]
huge change of pace etc in this book, like the death of Deudermont, the novel's have lost their "innocence" and charm, which may not be a good thing
I hear ya on the discomfort with the darker tone of the tales. I don't know if Bob is reacting to the criticisms that his stories have been too simple and sweet, before; or if Bob is just wanting to go to a darker place for his own pleasure. Either way, it should definitely open a lot of people's eyes who have disregarded the Drizzt books for years. It could be a case of "Be careful what you wish for..." |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Minxie18
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 21:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I'm about halfway through and making snarky comments as I read it... but does anyone else here have a dislike for Dhalia? I'm finding her an awful character, scarred past or no.
It was weird getting to know Dahlia while reading this book for me... I went in expecting her to be a typical villain because of the book cover. And throughout the first half of the book she comes across that way because she's cold and ruthless. I wrote her off as someone we're not supposed to particularly like because she was the bad guy, and assumed she was going to meet her end at Drizzt's hands by the end of the book. Eventually I realized she was written to become a future companion of Drizzt's, forcing me to back up and re-evaluate her.
So... I don't hate her, and I doubt I'll ever love her, but I think I could grow to like her. She seems interesting enough and I could probably grow to like her more with the next books.
One thing I have a really hard time accepting is a Drizzt/Dahlia pairing happening down the road. I get why he likes her - the whole exotic beauty and ninja skills thing - but it's jarring that he's going from the pure hearted, valiant and sweet Catti-brie to this damaged, scarred chick with a decidedly dark history, including that one time she tossed her newborn off a cliff. 
I can't help but wish that Drizzt's next leading lady would be someone a bit more... wholesome (not to mention someone with hair  ). If I had any input I'd want to see Drizzt and Dahlia bond as friends and nothing more. But that's just me.
On another note, I wanted to ask about all the time skipping that went on this book. I haven't kept up with all the 4e dates and stuff, so when is present day? I was just wondering why there had a to be a 50 year time jump before Drizzt and Bruenor could go to Gauntlgrym.
I remember being caught off guard when we were in 1409 one chapter and suddenly we've gone decades into the future. The impression I got in that 1409 section when Bruenor decided to fake his death was that he didn't have that many years left in him... like at most, he had another decade and wanted to use what little time he had to finally find Gauntlgrym. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 01:44:14
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Well, to be fair it wasn't that she was set up as a typical villain so much as her motives are such an afterthought that when she changes directions the first time it came off as an incredibly shallow attempt to make her seem "redeemable" with utterly no lead in to suggest that she might have had doubts about the way she operated before. I'm actually of the mind that if the whole "murdering seductress" trope had been cut from the beginning, she would have seemed like a much more believable character overall. Cripes, events later in the book would have worked better without the "Murdering seductress" bit.
I haven't even started on the bad psychology yet either, but I don't want to hijack the thread.  |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 13:42:23
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| Well I finished reading it yesterday. Simply loved it. What's with the cover art though (its beautiful, but anyone who read it knows why I am asking what is up with that)? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 15:13:26
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| Because the artist read the first few chapters and came to a logical conclusion? |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 15:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Because the artist read the first few chapters and came to a logical conclusion?
Hehe, that's possible. It would make for quite a vivid scene though. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Minxie18
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 16:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I'm actually of the mind that if the whole "murdering seductress" trope had been cut from the beginning, she would have seemed like a much more believable character overall. Cripes, events later in the book would have worked better without the "Murdering seductress" bit.
I think you're right. Dahlia would have made more sense in the end if she hadn't been introduced as a murdering seductress.
Lol - I wonder how Drizzt is going to react when she tells him the story behind her earrings that he was so curious to know about.
Dahlia: "Oh, these little things? They represent all the lovers I've killed."
Drizzt: 
quote:
her motives are such an afterthought that when she changes directions the first time it came off as an incredibly shallow attempt to make her seem "redeemable" with utterly no lead in to suggest that she might have had doubts about the way she operated before.
I got a little confused regarding this, too. Like her sudden change of heart right as Athrogate was about to pull the lever in the forge which felt like it came out of nowhere. And she did come across as shallow when she went straight back to working with Sylora, only to switch sides again later when she met up with Jarlaxle. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 23:39:41
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It's hard to discount the power and influence a figure such as Szass Tam would have over someone, especially when essentially cornering them and saying "serve or die". Always better to find a way in the future to get out in my book. I felt like there needed to be more backstory on Dahlia to really show the facets of her character and her moral decisions.
I do think a slightly less wholesome companion would be the natural choice for Drizzt as he is portrayed during this book, especially with regards to all the questions Jarlaxle poses him about his overall outlook on existence. Given other somewhat obvious revelations in the book regarding relationships Drizzt has had in the past with those who have "walked that line"...it seems clear some very heady confrontations will be in the next 2 (or 5) books. While Dahlia isn't a perfect character by any stretch, I think she fits and is someone I was actually interested in reading about other than same old, same old. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 01:18:58
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| I actually didn't ever get the impression that Dhalia initially served Szass Tam out of fear. It's never explicitly stated (see statement about foggy motives) but it seems to me that in order to explain her killing the people she has sex with and siding with Thay, revenge would have to be the force driving her. The odd part is that it seems to be very unfocused, which doesn't seem normal to me. I would have expected to see her making plans to kill Alegni sometime during the book but it wasn't even hinted at. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 23:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Minxie18
One thing I have a really hard time accepting is a Drizzt/Dahlia pairing happening down the road. I get why he likes her - the whole exotic beauty and ninja skills thing - but it's jarring that he's going from the pure hearted, valiant and sweet Catti-brie to this damaged, scarred chick with a decidedly dark history, including that one time she tossed her newborn off a cliff.
Yeah, it seems like too much of a change.
But then, you can't help whom you fall for. It's not like the heart uses some sort of rational decision-making matrix. Falling in love just sorta happens.
In Drizzt's case, he seems to have completely forgotten the "Let it be" wisdom that Innovindil supposedly taught him in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", and is instead kinda-sorta repeating his crazed avenger Hunter mode phase all over again. He seeks out battle now for the excitement, in the hope that it will save him from having to think about the loss of Catti-brie. I guess he's going for the bad girl type precisely because she stands to bring more excitement than a clone of Cat?
quote:
I can't help but wish that Drizzt's next leading lady would be someone a bit more... wholesome (not to mention someone with hair ).
Oh, she's got hair. Don't you remember: she has that one?
(Visions of Homer Simpson...)
quote:
If I had any input I'd want to see Drizzt and Dahlia bond as friends and nothing more. But that's just me.
Been there; done that. Remember Innovindil? He already had a female elven Platonic friend. The only thing that kept that from developing into something more was that he realized his companions were still alive, and Inno encouraged him to follow through on what he and Cat had already started. Poor Inno got whacked before she could get sloppy seconds!
quote:
On another note, I wanted to ask about all the time skipping that went on this book.
I have said that this book had more flashbacks than a season of Lost!
quote:
I haven't kept up with all the 4e dates and stuff, so when is present day?
The Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR), per the FR Campaign Guide (4E).
Gauntlgrym ends in the Year of the Elves' Weeping (1462 DR) (Gaunt., P2:C10).
quote:
I was just wondering why there had a to be a 50 year time jump before Drizzt and Bruenor could go to Gauntlgrym.
It was never supposed to be easy to find!
Actually, the advancement in the timeline was called for WOTC, so Bob just had to work the quest for Gauntlgrym plot and the timeline advancement requirement in together.
quote:
The impression I got in that 1409 section when Bruenor decided to fake his death was that he didn't have that many years left in him... like at most, he had another decade and wanted to use what little time he had to finally find Gauntlgrym.
It's weird that Bruenor keeps getting called "old", since he's really only in his 200s. By my best calculations, he was born around 1157 DR, which means that he would've only been about 252 years old in 1409 DR. Since we've previously been told that dwarves live to about 400 easily, Bruenor was not really old.
But it's certainly understandable that he felt old. Even if you make it out of a fight with a dragon, that's gotta put some major wear and tear on your body. Then throw in all the stress he faced over the loss of his son, then the treaty with the orcs, then the loss of his daughter and little buddy, etc. Maybe it all prematurely aged him? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 23:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
when she changes directions the first time it came off as an incredibly shallow attempt to make her seem "redeemable" with utterly no lead in to suggest that she might have had doubts about the way she operated before.
Agreed. Her change of heart was much too abrupt.
I understood her wanting to stick it to Sylora, as we were given plenty of warning on that aspect.
But I didn't think her changing sides and helping Jar & Arthro midstream like that came off well.
Who would ever want an ally who's so flaky as to completely do a 180 right in the middle of the action like that?!
quote:
I'm actually of the mind that if the whole "murdering seductress" trope had been cut from the beginning, she would have seemed like a much more believable character overall. Cripes, events later in the book would have worked better without the "Murdering seductress" bit.
Bah, I could see her going that route in her life. Watch TV crime shows, and almost every psychopath or hit man had some trauma in his past. It's actually the rare individual who didn't, at least on TV.
I just didn't think her coming over to the Light--well, to the Gray side of the Force, with Jar and all--was handled well. It was too abrupt.
quote:
I haven't even started on the bad psychology yet either, but I don't want to hijack the thread.
Bad psychology of Dahlia, or of Drizzt?
Drizzt's kinda makes sense, given what he went through at the end of "Transitions" (namely TGK).
But we weren't given any explanation for why he completely forgot/ignored/disregarded what Inno told him in the mini-series prior to that ("THBT"). Whatever happened to "live like you were dying, accept the inevitable losses; and repeat"? Acceptance of the inevitable losses was supposed to be a preqrequisite to living like you were dying. Supposedly Drizzt had embraced that aspect of life with a human woman before he decided to finally get serious with her. But then when he lost her, he just got angry again.
And I can almost accept that, except we haven't been given an explanation for his brain lapse, yet.
I liken it to Bruenor's decision to sign the treaty with the orcs at the end of The Orc King, in that we weren't clearly given his reasoning for that abrupt change of heart, either--not until the Prologue of Gauntlgrym, that is. (Methinks my harping on the issue motivated Bob to give us that explanation, belatedly.)
Yes, we could speculate and rationalize for ourselves, reading between the lines. But there was a glaring omission of an explanation in the text, itself.
So maybe we'll get a reconciliation of Inno's old advice and Drizzt's acceptance thereof with his new mindset . . . in the next novel or two or three? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 23:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
What's with the cover art though (its beautiful, but anyone who read it knows why I am asking what is up with that)?
No offense to Todd Lockwood, but few of his Drizzt covers have actually corresponded to real scenes in the books. They're meant to take real elements from the stories and then to weave them into something exciting and new. The Love Boat meets fanfic meets the Forgotten Realms...
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I actually didn't ever get the impression that Dhalia initially served Szass Tam out of fear.
Gotta go back and double-check that, but...
quote:
It's never explicitly stated (see statement about foggy motives) but it seems to me that in order to explain her killing the people she has sex with and siding with Thay, revenge would have to be the force driving her.
Agreed. I thought Dahlia was all about revenge on males, and since males inevitably let her down, she has had a neverending supply of targets.
quote:
The odd part is that it seems to be very unfocused, which doesn't seem normal to me. I would have expected to see her making plans to kill Alegni sometime during the book but it wasn't even hinted at.
Agreed that there should've been some sort of comment about her yearning to take a swipe at him, too, even if she immediately cast that idea aside for fear that he might be too powerful for her at this time.
It's like the fact that Drizzt's blade Icingdeath can quench flames is not always mentioned when Drizzt faces flames. Even if a blurb said that Drizzt thought to take comfort in the flame-abating properties of his blade, but unfortunately such-and-such flames burned too hotly, etc., at least there would be a reference to such an obvious consideration.
Here, we don't get much, if anything, about Dahlia obviously wanting to whack the guy who raped her.
But we should remember that she is still young, and with that, probably immature. Children can be gifted at some sort of craft or sport, and yet simultaneously still be very immature and silly in the head. Just because she can really sling a nunchaku doesn't necessarily mean that she can make wise decisions. Martial dexterity does not equal rationality.
Psychoses are rarely rational. A person can project her hatred for person A onto persons B & C instead, because of some perceived similarities, without ever consciously making the connection that the person she should really be hating is person A, himself.
Or, perhaps Dahlia is actually quite rational about this, and maybe she's just working her way up to the big boss fight? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 07:02:31
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Bad psychology about Dhalia. Drizzt is easy with his paralyzing fear of loss.
quote:
quote:
It's never explicitly stated (see statement about foggy motives) but it seems to me that in order to explain her killing the people she has sex with and siding with Thay, revenge would have to be the force driving her.
Agreed. I thought Dahlia was all about revenge on males, and since males inevitably let her down, she has had a neverending supply of targets.
Here's where the psychology gets iffy (to my unpracticed eye anyway).
If she's going the Serial killer route of luring in and then killing her lovers, as boitoi Dor'crae's reactions would seem to bear out, then she is targeting them specifically and should not be slept with under any circumstances whatsoever because that's her pattern. I've never heard of anyone successfully curing a serial killer. Ever. But the thing is that serial killing, while rare among males, is even rarer among females. I want to say that there's only been maybe 3 in the US in the past century, but I'd be guessing wildly.
In any case, that is not statically what happens to girls who are raped by strangers (which these days is a smaller number than those raped by aquaintance or closer). One of the more usual reactions is to be distrustful and fearful of the opposite sex and avoid sexual encounters of any kind, even avoiding the possibility of sex in any way shape or form (because it was used against them as a weapon of fear). Alternatively, the focus would be very specific (fear and hatred against those who resemble their attacker).
With Dhalia, we get symptoms of both though. She kills the baby to hurt Alegni (I will not wonder from whence the midwives came and where they disappeared to in the narrative, I'm tired of tripping over plotholes) but she also has the serial killer thing going too. It seems like something of a stretch. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, I could see her still being a perfectly viable character without the serial killing. Even her really flippant switcharoo early on would have made more sense if she were not a murdering seductress and instead someone who had become very good at weapons in order to keep everything and everyone at bay. An "I won't get hurt again because now I am strong" sort of thing.
Something about her mind set sorts itself out better if Dhalia were a Darvin for me. Then it seems completely twistedly normal for this character to try to become the monster in order to overcome it. It seems more common for girls to get caught on the bad end of the attacker/victim cycle. We see this sort of victim behavior when Dhalia interacts with Sylora later on... which doesn't jive with someone who kills her lovers with alarming frequency in order to exert control over them.
quote:
But we should remember that she is still young, and with that, probably immature. Children can be gifted at some sort of craft or sport, and yet simultaneously still be very immature and silly in the head. Just because she can really sling a nunchaku doesn't necessarily mean that she can make wise decisions. Martial dexterity does not equal rationality.
Maturity actually doesn't enter into it at all. Rationality on the part of the party involved isn't really relevent either, unless they are trying to control their behavior. It's more of a kneejerk reaction to certain stimuli, but it's usually the same series of unthinking reactions (or at least in the same family) unlike the two different sets that Dhalia exhibits for more or less the same stimuli.
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Or, perhaps Dahlia is actually quite rational about this, and maybe she's just working her way up to the big boss fight?
If this is the case, then why isn't it something on her mind from the few glimpses we've had of her thought processes. It seems like it would have been after the encounter with Barrabus.
I'd almost buy a revelation that Dhalia was schizophrenic because that's how scattered her thought processes and her reactions seems to be. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 08:46:18
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I'm going have to go against the grain here and say that Dahlia won't be a love interest for Drizzt. More like a little sister...or maybe a daughter type. I mean the age difference is a factor wouldn't you think? Wouldn't she be close to a teen or the like? Personally I would find it creepy if they were to hook up so to speak. And I really believe that Drizzt will begin to see her as the daughter him and Cattie-Brie could've had. Just my take
Also if this does become romantic...is there a place in that pocket dimension for Dahlia too? |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 18:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
I'm going have to go against the grain here and say that Dahlia won't be a love interest for Drizzt. More like a little sister...or maybe a daughter type. I mean the age difference is a factor wouldn't you think? Wouldn't she be close to a teen or the like? Personally I would find it creepy if they were to hook up so to speak. And I really believe that Drizzt will begin to see her as the daughter him and Cattie-Brie could've had. Just my take
Also if this does become romantic...is there a place in that pocket dimension for Dahlia too?
I'm actually hoping that Drizzt will kill her at some point as she's hitting bingo for the "love interest" marks and has what looks like an incurable psychosis attached to mattress mauling. Also it seems like anyone who looks vaguely like a replacement for Catti gets killed (*cough* Innovindil *cough*), but that's mostly guessing on my part.
My understanding was that "spring/fall" matches aren't really an issue for elves because adulthood is several centuries barring mishap. In any case, I found enough that was "ew" worthy with their interactions that one more won't be out of place. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 20:12:17
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| Innovindal and others that might have been a replacement for Catti-Brie were killed off ttrue.....but that's because Cat was still alive at that time. Now that Cat is dead....might be a different story. |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 21:27:07
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I think she will become a love interest of Drizzt's and her world view and values will begin to shift towards Drizzt's as Drizzt's shift towards her's....meeting somewhere in the grey area. But ultimately she will be compulsed for whatever reason to kill him as she has with all of her lovers (the scars of her childhood will prove too much to compete with) and they will have a final showdown.
Her betrayal may even push Drizzt even darker.... |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 21:58:31
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LOL Something along the lines of "O WOE, I COULD NOT TURN HER FROM HER WICKEDNESS!" Jornan? XD
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Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 22:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
If she's going the Serial killer route of luring in and then killing her lovers, as boitoi Dor'crae's reactions would seem to bear out, then she is targeting them specifically and should not be slept with under any circumstances whatsoever because that's her pattern.
Well, I do not believe that anyone is advocating sleeping with a suspected serial killer!
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I've never heard of anyone successfully curing a serial killer. Ever.
In real life, yeah.
But this is fantasy, and heroic fantasy at that.
I've never heard of drow, elf, or tiefling in real life, either, but that doesn't stop me from reading about them in books! 
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But the thing is that serial killing, while rare among males, is even rarer among females. I want to say that there's only been maybe 3 in the US in the past century, but I'd be guessing wildly.
Is there any reason why real life, US demographic norms for humans should be considered to also apply to non-humans in a non-US environment?
One sociological theory for the real life higher occurrence of violent crime in the US is an allegedly greater degree of cultural diversity in the big "melting pot". If there is any merit to that theory, then perhaps Toril--with its abundance of all sorts of other lifeforms never before seen on Earth, in addition to the kinds with which we are already familiar, plus the occasional RSE or two--suffers from ever greater preponderance of violent crime and psychoses than the US?
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In any case, that is not statically what happens to girls who are raped by strangers (which these days is a smaller number than those raped by aquaintance or closer). One of the more usual reactions is to be distrustful and fearful of the opposite sex and avoid sexual encounters of any kind, even avoiding the possibility of sex in any way shape or form (because it was used against them as a weapon of fear). Alternatively, the focus would be very specific (fear and hatred against those who resemble their attacker).
What about serial killers who are shy by day, but who lash out at night? They may be fearful by default, holding it all in, bottling it up, but then release it uncontrollably.
Or they may find a practical outlet for their rage, such as becoming hit men, getting paid to strike at assigned targets, honing their skills, in the hopes that some day they can decide upon their own targets.
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(I will not wonder from whence the midwives came and where they disappeared to in the narrative, I'm tired of tripping over plotholes)
Well, since the elves were living in the forest, I would guess the elven midwives came from . . . the forest! 
The Shadovar killed off the female elves of non-child-bearing age. But this does not mean that there weren't any midwives of child-bearing age who survived the culling. The shades left a lot of the females alive, and it sounds like some of them helped Dahlia with the delivery.
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Even her really flippant switcharoo early on would have made more sense if she were not a murdering seductress and instead someone who had become very good at weapons in order to keep everything and everyone at bay. An "I won't get hurt again because now I am strong" sort of thing.
I am not familiar with the established Thay lore. But it sounds like she became good at weaps precisely because the people who trained her wanted her to become a murdering seductress. It was all part of her training. She wasn't given a buffet-style curriculum, where she got to pick and choose!
She was ticked off royally as a result of the rape. The text says that the innocent little elf girl that she used to be died right there and then. Whenever she came across the Thayans, apparently she was ripe for manipulation and exploitation.
It sounds to me a lot like the criminal and terrorist organizations who recruit from the poor, downtrodden, and imprisoned portions of the population. Get 'em when they're weak and mad at the world, and then mold 'em into whatever you want 'em to become.
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It seems more common for girls to get caught on the bad end of the attacker/victim cycle. We see this sort of victim behavior when Dhalia interacts with Sylora later on... which doesn't jive with someone who kills her lovers with alarming frequency in order to exert control over them.
I got the impression that her submission to Sylora was the result of punishment imposed by Szass Tam, rather than a willful act on her own part. She whacked her prior lovers with impunity, as far as Tam was concerned. He was happy to see her develop her erotic and martial skills, so. But Sylora is his right-hand woman, now, and unlike Dahlia, she did successfully entice Arthro to pull the switch in Gauntlgrym, so Tam is not so eager to let Dahlia try something with Sylora. It's entirely possible that Dahlia could successfully whack her supervisor, but then Tam could and probably would do the same right back to her.
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It's more of a kneejerk reaction to certain stimuli, but it's usually the same series of unthinking reactions (or at least in the same family) unlike the two different sets that Dhalia exhibits for more or less the same stimuli.
She struck back at Alegni for his rape, and she strikes back at her various lovers for their various transgressions. Those sound like reactions that are in the same family. So what's the supposedly different set of reactions that she is exhibiting?
Alegni assaulted her as a child, by surprise, and so he probably represents the ultimate monster to her. These other schmucks are people whom she met and nurtured relationships with. When they inevitably crossed her in some way, she was quite ready for it. And because she had spent time cultivating relationships with them, they did not intimidate her, as the tiefling had done with her when she was a child. She takes bolder moves with them because they are less prominent boogey-men in her mind. Familiarity breeds contempt, as they say.
This makes me think she is building up to a showdown with her rapist in the future.
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If this is the case, then why isn't it something on her mind from the few glimpses we've had of her thought processes. It seems like it would have been after the encounter with Barrabus.
I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't say any of this definitively. But it sounds plausible that her fear of Alegni as a superior adversary might've led her to burying conscious thoughts of revenge against him, and to settling on less-capable enemies instead. Revenge-by-proxy is cowardly, but I'd be willing to bet that it also stands a greater chance of success than directly confronting a demonic nemesis.
Whom did she kill in the first place? It wasn't Alegni himself, but rather, his child. From the earliest days of her avenger phase, she has struck back at the wrong people. (The Elf Strikes Back... )
Cognitive dissonance, or uncomforable awareness of conflicting/contradictory internal attitudes/behaviors/etc., does not necessarily manifest itself as soon as the conflict begins. It may take time. Psychotherapy often deals with odd behavior that has arisen as a result of anxiety due to longterm repressed/suppressed inner conflicts.
Perhaps Dahlia will realize/be shown the error of her ways and decide to go directly after Alegni in the future, and this will be posited as a heroic change-of-heart/redemption?
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I'd almost buy a revelation that Dhalia was schizophrenic because that's how scattered her thought processes and her reactions seems to be.
But she doesn't seem to be suffering a break from reality (schizophrenia). She seems to be making irrational decisions as to what to do about past trauma. She's got angst, but she hasn't seized upon the best thing to do about it. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 02:53:04
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quote:
But this is fantasy, and heroic fantasy at that.
I should check logic at the door because of that? Fantasy means that everything, especially the characters, needs to help the reader buy into the fantasy. The story will not work unless the suspesion of disbelief is cultivated and fostered. I was once told that the more "high fantasy" a book is, the more real the characters must be. Dhalia does not read like a female character to me, let alone a "real" one in any way shape or form. Why should I suspend disbelief for a character with few relateble or logical qualities to them?
Besides, the only hero of any kind in Guantlgrym was Bruenor.
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One sociological theory for the real life higher occurrence of violent crime in the US is an allegedly greater degree of cultural diversity in the big "melting pot". If there is any merit to that theory, then perhaps Toril--with its abundance of all sorts of other lifeforms never before seen on Earth, in addition to the kinds with which we are already familiar, plus the occasional RSE or two--suffers from ever greater preponderance of violent crime and psychoses than the US?
Even if you double the numbers, it's still going to be a very low low number... for the guys. I think that women are some ludicrously low percentage of an already ludicrously low percentage.
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Or they may find a practical outlet for their rage, such as becoming hit men, getting paid to strike at assigned targets, honing their skills, in the hopes that some day they can decide upon their own targets.
Unlikely, since the outlooks are different. One kills because it is a job, they like some aspect of the job (money, infamy, stalking things, whatever) and they can control themselves to make the hit without tripping over a psychosis. A criminal organization is going to want someone who can stick to business and who doesn't indulge in risky side projects that they can't control.
A serial killer has very specific needs that they fulfill with victim. Also, the victim has to be someone of their choosing. They might seem completely normal otherwise.
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(I will not wonder from whence the midwives came and where they disappeared to in the narrative, I'm tired of tripping over plotholes)
Well, since the elves were living in the forest, I would guess the elven midwives came from . . . the forest!
The Shadovar killed off the female elves of non-child-bearing age. But this does not mean that there weren't any midwives of child-bearing age who survived the culling. The shades left a lot of the females alive, and it sounds like some of them helped Dahlia with the delivery.
Dhalia should be dead then. I'm pretty sure 12 is too young for an elf to have started her menses. Then there's having babies at 12 has every likelihood of killing both mother and child (I'm assuming Algeni was thorough and killed all the clerics and healers). And then there's the black hole that the potential support group that those midwives represent, because for some reason characters having relationships with people who don't have an active part to play in the narrative would make that character more real.
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It sounds to me a lot like the criminal and terrorist organizations who recruit from the poor, downtrodden, and imprisoned portions of the population. Get 'em when they're weak and mad at the world, and then mold 'em into whatever you want 'em to become.
I would think most criminal organiztions don't want people who can't control themselves, they want people who follow orders, do the job, don't feel bad about it later. Loose cannons are not good for business. Why would they mold someone into something unprofitable?
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She struck back at Alegni for his rape, and she strikes back at her various lovers for their various transgressions. Those sound like reactions that are in the same family. So what's the supposedly different set of reactions that she is exhibiting?
Alegni assaulted her as a child, by surprise, and so he probably represents the ultimate monster to her. These other schmucks are people whom she met and nurtured relationships with. When they inevitably crossed her in some way, she was quite ready for it. And because she had spent time cultivating relationships with them, they did not intimidate her, as the tiefling had done with her when she was a child. She takes bolder moves with them because they are less prominent boogey-men in her mind. Familiarity breeds contempt, as they say.
This makes me think she is building up to a showdown with her rapist in the future.
Nope it still doesn't jive.
If Alegni is her ulitmate monster, he should be on her mind more often. And considering her past attempt of lashing out directly at him, she shouldn't care about who gets in the way of that. At the very least she should have some fantasy about standing over him before she kills him or something. Which is fine for an evil-ish character and would solve the "no motive" problem quite nicely. But this route seems to have been avoided and replaced by inconsistency.
The initial turnaround undermines that because it runs so counter to what was set down before. I've a tough time believing that those elven midwives I talked about earlier would have thought of Thay as a refuge or a tool to be used against the Shadovar. Myth Drannor, Agralond (if it's still around), Evereska, Silverymoon, even Rhymanthiin are all possibilities to retreat to, regroup and strike back at the Shadovar (Evereska, Sliverymoon and Myth Drannor especially).
In addition, it sounded to me more that she manufactured situations where she could claim that she had been wronged and then duel her bedmates (something Thayans might find amusing, I suppose), but then we only have Dor'crae's word and his death (which is something of an exception to pattern). We aren't shown any of Dhalia's relationship with Borlann (when she is presumably acting out as she had previously)
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Perhaps Dahlia will realize/be shown the error of her ways and decide to go directly after Alegni in the future, and this will be posited as a heroic change-of-heart/redemption?
Which I wouldn't buy because the initial foundation for it is built on sand. A two line thought bubble in the beginning would have been good and all that I needed. "She ran because if she could not deal with the minion, she would not survive his master." There. I fixed it. It can go on page 200 right after she expresses relief at finding her devil worshiping minions.
BTW, is there something wrong with her being a legible bad guy with motives? Why should I want her redeemed in the first place?
Forget Drizzt killing her, he'd angst over it too much. Barabbus can do it instead. Or Jarlaxle. He seems to be able to slap anyone with a trout if he needs to. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
Edited by - Lady Fellshot on 31 Oct 2010 02:55:09 |
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geok1ng
Acolyte
Brazil
9 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 21:26:02
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If barrabus is Entreri, then i would love to read :
Where is Charon's Claw and the jewelled dagger?
How did the netherese got hold of Entreri?
How come the Barrabus "killed" drows in Luskan and betrayed Bregan Daerthe?
There are a few gaps on the reasoning that Barrabus IS Entreri that must be filled,
I have a hard time watching Entreri become a slave again,and serving the Netherese is harder still...Entreri as we knowed would rather die.
Of course EVERYONE is ansious to read tales of Artemis Entreri life again. "Charming is a learned art= So is murder." But i refuse to believe that a simple young elf is Entreri's equal in swordplay...after 100 years i would expect him to become better, maybe better than Drizzt, whose spirit is broken, while Entreri's spirit got wiser.
But the Spellplague is a wonderful excuse to weaken and snare great Chars from previous era. |
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Gauntlgrym: Neverwinter, Book I -- SPOILERS
