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Archimedes of Syracuse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:17:48
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Im currently reading Unclean (which i must add is a simply amazing book) and while reading i find myself liking sazz tam. He has to be one of the most evil vile characters iv read in th FR but i just cant help but like him and im not sure why. I was wondering if anyone feels the same about sazz and why. Also i want to know some other very evil but very likable villains that are out there.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 01:00:07
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I've always liked Szass Tam. He has this kind of confidence that doesn't border in extreme arrogance. Despite being evil, he's also occasionally “trusting,” which, as you will find out once you continue reading Unclean, Undead, and Unholy, led him to near-death. When you're done with the Haunted Lands, you may want to read “Red Magic,” where Tam was also featured, opposing the former Zulkir of Alteration, Maligor.
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 03:45:03
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Archimedes, I found the following evil villains very likeable:
Rivalen from the Twilight War trilogy
Kaanyr Vhok from WotSQ and Empyrean Odissey
The Sojourner from the Erevis Cale trilogy
Malik el Sami yn Nasser from Crucible (although he is probably more devoted than evil) |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
Edited by - skychrome on 15 Jun 2010 03:49:41 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 06:06:41
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Archimedes, here are the villains I like (other than Szass Tam):
Telamont Tanthul from Return of the Archwizards and Twilight War
Rivalen Tanthul
Brennus Tanthul
Sammaster from Year of Rogue Dragons
Maligor from Red Magic
The Sojourner from the Erevis Cale trilogy
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 15:38:29
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| Well Szass Tam is a refined individual. Even in undeath, he finds the time to enjoy a glass of fine wine (although the way in which he enjoys it isn't the same as a mortal). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 20:43:00
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| Sounds cool, I might have to check out that book at some point. Of course, with the huge backload of D&D reading I have it might be 10 years from now ;p Between hardback & pdf, I have at least 80% of no realms & general non module D&D books (including OGL stuff) published for 3 or 3.5, so hundreds of books & a stack of novels sitting here at well but am interested from what you've wrote. I for one have never been a fan of "heroes." I've always liked the "bad guys" much better. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 20:54:26
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I think Elath Craulnober is one of the coolest characters ever, but I like the Shadowsil best of all, though.
The Sojourner was great, and I can't think of Rivalen as villain (I haven't read the newer trilogy). Manshoon is just a *****bag, but Semmenon I took a liking to after reading Blackstaff. Vhok is also pretty damn cool.
As for Tam, if you like him there is a great short-story around somewhere where you see into his 'heart' - YES, he used to have one. Read the story and find out why he doesn't anymore.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jun 2010 21:04:57 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 21:33:51
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quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Malik el Sami yn Nasser from Crucible (although he is probably more devoted than evil)
Really? I think that Malik is one of the most evil character I've read about in a while. He didn't hesitate to enslave a friend who would have given his life to protect him just to cash a few coins (and that's pretty evil). He has absolutly no respect or interest for anyone but himself or his god. Sure, he'll be of some help from time to time, but he's only saving himself in the process. He has almost no fighting abilities (a few backstabs here and there) or arcane talent. I think that's makes him one of the most original, unique villain in the realms.
As for charismatic villain, the evil bard Greyt from Ghostwalker was interesting, and certainly more charismatic than many tyrants of the realms. You don't need charisma to blast a village, but you need alot to convince the villagers that you are a hero! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 23:03:39
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| kaanyr vhok and alisza are pretty charismatic and hard not to lie. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 23:19:31
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| Dont forget the most evil of all evil dudes... Skeletor of Snake Mountain! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 23:43:29
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Yeah, but even he was a pretty nice guy in the Christmas special  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 00:56:21
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quote:
As for Tam, if you like him there is a great short-story around somewhere where you see into his 'heart' - YES, he used to have one. Read the story and find out why he doesn't anymore.
Markus, what is this gem of a short story called? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 01:23:51
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Red Ambition, by Jean Rabe, which appeared in both Realms of Magic and later Best of The Realms: Book I.
Just looking through some of my anthologies to find that, and I remember why I love the anthologies so much more then the trilogies/multi-bookthingies - you get a better picture of the Realms in those books, and yet the stories are small, about events that don't matter much in the greater scheme of things.
But they are events that give you the best picture of the Real realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 07:08:25
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I don't like that short story. I also don't like how Tam was "used" in the novel Red Magic. Or maybe I just don't like Rabe's style. The only books where I believe Szass Tam was given much justice in terms of characterization are the Haunted Lands.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 08:50:35
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Never read those, and mods forgive me, Red Magic flat-out sucked.
"Hey look! Its a low-level harper-boy and his centaur companion, and they are single-handedly defeating everything in Thay!"
Ummmmmm... Yeah.... RIIIIIIIGHT. 
But I thought that short-story was pretty damn good. I think she just didn't understand Thay when she wrote that - it read like a Conan novel (you know.. when he goes into Stygia and single-handedly kills dozens of Re.. err.. Black Wizards).
I also think Christie Golden should write more Realms stories. She had a couple of stories in those anthologies and they were excellent. I read a couple of Warcraft novels by her, and I was surprised to find how much I enjoyed them. She made me pity Orcs... very cool.
They were my son's books, BTW - I make sure all my kids are avid readers like me. They get their cellphone addiction from their mom... I'm hoping the reading will repair some of those radio-wave damaged brain cells. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jun 2010 08:53:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 08:55:53
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Christie Golden? Jeez, I hate what she did in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King...Totally su***d! The apt title for that book is Arthas: The Love-Struck Puppy
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 08:58:50
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It's one of the worst books I have ever read in my entire existence on earth...I thought the last few chapters will salvage the plot, but it looks like it was doomed from beginning to end. And I promise myself never to read Golden's books again... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 19:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Malik el Sami yn Nasser from Crucible (although he is probably more devoted than evil)
Really? I think that Malik is one of the most evil character I've read about in a while. He didn't hesitate to enslave a friend who would have given his life to protect him just to cash a few coins (and that's pretty evil). He has absolutly no respect or interest for anyone but himself or his god. Sure, he'll be of some help from time to time, but he's only saving himself in the process. He has almost no fighting abilities (a few backstabs here and there) or arcane talent. I think that's makes him one of the most original, unique villain in the realms.
I agree with you that he does really evil stuff, but I always felt that that was never driven really by himself as a person. I felt everything he did was done due to desperate und complete devotion to his god. As far as I remember he never did anything evil which was not directly necessary in his understanding other than to be able to continue with his quest to save his god (and himself as his servant). So in this sense he is a very untipical villain for me, not only because he has no real skills. But to any outsider who just looks at what he did without knowing what passed through Malik's mind, he must be utterly evil.  |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 20:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
It's one of the worst books I have ever read in my entire existence on earth...I thought the last few chapters will salvage the plot, but it looks like it was doomed from beginning to end. And I promise myself never to read Golden's books again...
Have you read the few Realms stories she's done? They are all quite good. Her stories aren't as action-packed as others - they go for the gut, and invoke emotional responses (not too shabby for a 'game author').
And I didn't read the one about Arthas, I read 2 others, and I thought Lord of the Clans was excellent - certainly not the best piece of prose I ever read, but the story fit the world and feel perfectly - I think she really captured the Warcraft Orcs. Unlike MANY authors who write for shared worlds (who shall remain nameless), she does her research, and her stories don't feel like they were just dropped into any old setting.
Oh... and BTW... I don't think the story was her fault. I actually STOPPED playing Warcraft III at the point where Arthus turned on the Alliance - ruined the entire game for me. Never picked it back up after that. Also refuse to play WoW since Rise of the Lich King was released - last thing I want is more Arthus shlock. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jun 2010 20:29:43 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 01:41:58
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That book was supposed to be like a grand history of WoW, since different wars happened before and during Arthas' ascension to lich king. But there should have a focus. It turned out to be too choppy, and the shift of Arthas' character from a love-struck puppy (I mean, paladin), to a cold-blooded lich was NOT SMOOTHLY HANDLED by Golden.
As to her Realms stories, as far as I know, she hasn't penned yet a novel, right? Just short stories in the Realms Anthologies?? I rarely read short stories, and most of them are Ed's, Richard's, and Elaine's.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 02:45:17
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Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
Anyhow, if your main problem with the book was with Arthus' rather abrupt shift in character, then that really wasn't her fault. That's how it happened in Warcraft III, and I was like "WTF?!"
It was that bad, even in the game - I said I stopped playing after that. I think having to kill all those villagers that were corrupted by the Scourge drove him nuts, but still..... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 03:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
Anyhow, if your main problem with the book was with Arthus' rather abrupt shift in character, then that really wasn't her fault. That's how it happened in Warcraft III, and I was like "WTF?!"
It was that bad, even in the game - I said I stopped playing after that. I think having to kill all those villagers that were corrupted by the Scourge drove him nuts, but still.....
Her style, failure to connect the dots (so to speak), and meshing the different wars that took place during Arthas' time in such a chaotic, unfocused way contributed to my big disappointment. Even the destruction of Dalaran, the city of mages, was portrayed in a horrendous manner. Imagine Cyric swatting a dragon. That's more like it.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:05:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 05:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...and I can't think of Rivalen as villain (I haven't read the newer trilogy).
I just noticed this. Well, he's more like a villain than his father in Twilight War, if exposure is the sole basis. And he's the only villain in the realms I know (so far) who actually CRIED...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 14:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
Actually, I found her book Vampire of the Mists to be very enjoyable. It's one of the only Ravenloft books I bothered to replace. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 14:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if she's done a full-length novel for the Realms - Sage might know.
No full-length novels, at least not for the Realms. RAVENLOFT, yes. Her Realms fiction is limited to three short stories each in the Realms of Valor, Realms of Infamy, and Realms of Magic -- all of which deal with the elven vampire Jander.
Elves and vampires? -----more reason I won't read those stories. But thanks, anyway, Sage. At least now I am SURE I will never have the slightest inclination to read them.
I'd make the effort at least once, if only because worthwhile vampire lore based in the Realms isn't exactly commonplace. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 17:37:57
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Yeah, just ignore the fact the main character is an Elf - I try to avoid 'Elfy' stories myself.
That Myth Drannor series would be good for me... to induce vomiting.
(Have I mentioned I don't like Elves?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2010 17:38:34 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:22:51
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I don't like elves. And I was surprised how elves are treated in Wizards books (be it FR, DL, Eb..). The "creatures" think themselves far superior than humans, obnoxiously haughty...well, the list would go on and on... And I just ignore the fact that some of my fave FR characters either have elven blood (though, thank God, not pretty obvious in their looks), or are taught by elves in the use and intricacies of magic. I'd rather think of and see elves the likes of Dobby (Is the spelling right? It's been quite awhile since I last picked a Harry book).
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I don't like elves. And I was surprised how elves are treated in Wizards books (be it FR, DL, Eb..).
I wouldn't place all the TSR/WotC-derived elven races/sub-races into that same category. The Qualinesti elves of DRAGONLANCE, for example, often aren't as "haughty" as the Silvanesti elves. In general, Qualinesti elves tend toward a mindset that is somewhat similar to that of humankind. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:52:50
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Yes, I also think the Qualinesti are tending to be human-like in attitude, but I am referring to the general population of elves. And actually I care less about the elves from DL, Eb and MtG as I read far more books set in FR than in those 3. And nearly all elves in FR are ridiculously haughty and xenophobic.
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charismatic villains
