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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 23:25:20
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| Thank you Wooly! |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 23:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's interesting to watch a bunch of armchair lore quarterbacks (someone explain that to Uzzy as he's not from the States)
Who dat? |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 23:47:53
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I guess we can all agree that new editions of D&D suck for the Realms... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's interesting to watch a bunch of armchair lore quarterbacks (someone explain that to Uzzy as he's not from the States)
Arm Chair quarterbacks are people that watch a game and determines that the player on a sports field made a wrong choice. I am uncertain about there can be lore quarterbacks, except for perhaps players do not like retcons that destroy their ongoing games. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizard was not a potential character class for dwarves, and dwarves had problems using magical items. There's even a dwarven myth buried on the Wizards site that says the dwarves were Denied -- by their gods! -- and literally could not see the Nether Scrolls when the Scrolls were right in front of them. A gnome glanced at the Scrolls and became an illusionist, but the dwarves could not see them when looking directly at them.
Ok then. The dwarven legend "Tethyamar Dwarves and the Nether Scrolls" is not canon (official, unofficial lore works for me). Written by someone Ed praises on that page, but not canon. In addition, that legend does not indicate that the dwarves were denied, er, sorry "Denied" the use of magic. Actually, it states that the dwarves were Denied viewing the Nether Scrolls. The title suggests that this is the work of Mystryl.
"Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls and the gods of the dwarves forever guard their eyes from fathoming that which is the nether scrolls.
Grant W.L. Christie "
Kentinal:
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Regarding Bruenor's magic item creation, I agree some more information is required. What methods for item creation, besides "arcane magic", did the 1e/ 2e ruleset allow?
I added bold to a question from that haughty lout, Brace Cormaeril, which you took to answering without answering. Thank you for the information from 3.x. I am familiar. Please answer the question that I posed to Wooly, if you wish, but pay close attention. Particularly to the part in *bold*.
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The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:40:17
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Brace Cormaeril, posting the rule sets of even 1st Edition in large size violates the code of conduct.
Clerics/Priests could in 14st Edition and 2nd Edition pray over an item for it to become magical. Depending in part ruleset, in part what the item was it could take over 100 days. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am uncertain about there can be lore quarterbacks, except for perhaps players do not like retcons that destroy their ongoing games.
Kentinal, I'll pose a couple questions to you. What was written in the 4e FR books that made previous lore untenable? Please refer to the definition of retcon links at the begining of this scroll. What events occurred in the FR that "destroyed the ongoing games" of some players?
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The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:48:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizard was not a potential character class for dwarves, and dwarves had problems using magical items. There's even a dwarven myth buried on the Wizards site that says the dwarves were Denied -- by their gods! -- and literally could not see the Nether Scrolls when the Scrolls were right in front of them. A gnome glanced at the Scrolls and became an illusionist, but the dwarves could not see them when looking directly at them.
Ok then. The dwarven legend "Tethyamar Dwarves and the Nether Scrolls" is not canon (official, unofficial lore works for me). Written by someone Ed praises on that page, but not canon. In addition, that legend does not indicate that the dwarves were denied, er, sorry "Denied" the use of magic. Actually, it states that the dwarves were Denied viewing the Nether Scrolls. The title suggests that this is the work of Mystryl.
"Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls and the gods of the dwarves forever guard their eyes from fathoming that which is the nether scrolls.
Grant W.L. Christie "
Kentinal:
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Regarding Bruenor's magic item creation, I agree some more information is required. What methods for item creation, besides "arcane magic", did the 1e/ 2e ruleset allow?
I added bold to a question from that haughty lout, Brace Cormaeril, which you took to answering without answering. Thank you for the information from 3.x. I am familiar. Please answer the question that I posed to Wooly, if you wish, but pay close attention. Particularly to the part in *bold*.
Okay, so now you're saying official content from Wizards is not canon?  
Besides, look at what the scrolls could do. Glancing at one made a gnome into an illusionist... Obviously, dwarves were Denied the ability to see them to keep them from learning magic. And just as obviously, it comes from their own gods -- it was a priest of Dumathoin who explained it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Brace Cormaeril, posting the rule sets of even 1st Edition in large size violates the code of conduct.
Clerics/Priests could in 14st Edition and 2nd Edition pray over an item for it to become magical. Depending in part ruleset, in part what the item was it could take over 100 days.
You're free to quote a few paragraphs. Page numbers and printing will be fine to substantiate your claims.
From my good buddy B.3 of the Candlekeep CoC
3. Avoid posting large amounts of text quoted directly from WotC products. If you feel the need to do so, please keep the amount of text to a minimum (a couple of paragraphs at the most) and place the text within the Quote box (use the quote icon on the posting toolbar above the text area), stating the product title and page number from which the text was taken. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 21 Jun 2010 00:51:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
So Markus, two questions for you: Did you ever allow a PC to have access to a published FR map?
And, again, what lore is made untenable by, sometime between 1385 and 1480, some beings choosing to accept the term 'eladrin' as adequately synonomous with "elves".
Actually, my original FR group knew a lot more about the Realms then I did, including the maps. They talked me into running their "lousy, new world" and refused to play in my beloved Greyhawk (Heathens!) back in the very early 90's.
I had to borrow a campaign guide for that first session, and ran them through Temple of Elemental Evil (What? You didn't know it was near Moander's road, in the Dales?) 
No one batted an eye, and we all had fun. Used quite a bit of my Greyhawk material in FR in those early years.
My last group didn't really care to see the maps - it was my two sons and their friends (all teens, 14-16). they just wanted to bash some heads.
I have a mild case of OCD and I insist on perfection, to the point it makes me a major pain in the ass to be around (who'd have thought?)
I feel it also makes me a pretty damn good GM (attention to details), and what keeps me striving with the maps. They will never be 'good enough' to me, but I keep chuggin' right along.
And if a group wanted to see an FR map, I would give them one with only the bare-bones data on it - terrain, and settlements & roads they know about. I need to know where EVERYTHING is; they don't.
So it's just a personality quirk of mine that I insist everything make perfect sense, all the time. I have stopped watching many a good TV program because they surpassed my 'believability threshold', which is a damn shame, because I really liked them (like House).
It is also why I always tried to come up with explanations for all the 4e changes over on the WotC site, until I began to feel unwelcome there. Even if I won't use the 4e setting, I still need for it to make logical sense, because IT IS the future of the time-period I prefer to play in. I no longer complain about the changes any more, just the lack of logical explanations (like your timeline). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jun 2010 01:03:24 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 00:58:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, so now you're saying official content from Wizards is not canon?
Besides, look at what the scrolls could do. Glancing at one made a gnome into an illusionist... Obviously, dwarves were Denied the ability to see them to keep them from learning magic. And just as obviously, it comes from their own gods -- it was a priest of Dumathoin who explained it.
There's a lot of things posted on Wizards, oh-Fire-breathing-one-of-spinning exercise wheels, which take much effort but do not take one far. *I'd* most definitely accept it as canon, but I do not believe that "it's posted on Wizards.com" makes it FR canon.
I'm well aware of what the Nether Scrolls are purported to do, however, I am unwilling to extrapolate from this "legend" that "Obviously, dwarves were Denied the ability to see them to keep them from learning magic." You can make that leap into the void, if you wish, but I cannot.
Brace Cormaeriles natural habitat is nice, soft, atmosphere shielded firmament.
EDIT: Ok, maybe I wouldn't accept it as canon. Was this in Dragon Magazine? Was it in a wizards on-line article? All I got is a Word document hosted on Wizards web site. Either way, it's good, it flavor-ful, and written by someone Ed likes... (he likes everyone, tho) I'd like more information, as of now, this "myth" doesn't meet, I believe, the comunities standard for canon. Further, this is a "myth", so even if it is canon, the canon aspect may be that "yes, the dwarves *do* tell this tale", (even if it's aurumvorax leavings) |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 21 Jun 2010 01:06:49 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am uncertain about there can be lore quarterbacks, except for perhaps players do not like retcons that destroy their ongoing games.
Kentinal, I'll pose a couple questions to you. What was written in the 4e FR books that made previous lore untenable? Please refer to the definition of retcon links at the begining of this scroll. What events occurred in the FR that "destroyed the ongoing games" of some players?
Well I was upset with 3rd and Barbarian as a class, 4th only created more problems by adding other classes. Players that want to stay with canon as the Realms change is also can be a problem. Oh changing the Map of the world to remove land certainly a problem if the party was there at the time. On an individual basics each DM can choose not to acept a rule set change, however I was under the impression that you want to discuss Mega changes to Lore.
When some thing that always was and becomes never was that is a retcon, I do not need another definition. Killing deities and being told dead forever, coming back to life is just a better understanding about deities (not a retcon). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am uncertain about there can be lore quarterbacks, except for perhaps players do not like retcons that destroy their ongoing games.
Kentinal, I'll pose a couple questions to you. What was written in the 4e FR books that made previous lore untenable? Please refer to the definition of retcon links at the begining of this scroll. What events occurred in the FR that "destroyed the ongoing games" of some players?
Well I was upset with 3rd and Barbarian as a class, 4th only created more problems by adding other classes. Players that want to stay with canon as the Realms change is also can be a problem. Oh changing the Map of the world to remove land certainly a problem if the party was there at the time. On an individual basics each DM can choose not to acept a rule set change, however I was under the impression that you want to discuss Mega changes to Lore.
When some thing that always was and becomes never was that is a retcon, I do not need another definition. Killing deities and being told dead forever, coming back to life is just a better understanding about deities (not a retcon).
I'm gonna guess that English is not your first language, Kentinal?
Thank you for sharing your points of view in this thread! |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 21 Jun 2010 01:10:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:23:49
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Deleted - forget it - we just keep going in circles here...
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jun 2010 01:32:33 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:24:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Sylvae: the crux of your points seems to be that you don't think it is appropriate for beings whose original homeland is "Faerie" to choose to refer to themsleves are "fey". I don't find this hard to believe.
No, that's not it at all. More so that Eladrin were already established as Outsiders, and Elves already established as humanoids. And because this is a D&D setting, those classifications are more than rules mechanics, they define how magic affects them. Who and what they can breed with (without magical intervention), and how they can interact with the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I chose not to place any weird 'calamities' in my (poor, written in 5 mins) imagining of the 100 years between WotC's support of 3e and 4e. Such things are unneeded. (I did put in a goofy mispronounciation anectdote, and a dig at we grognards of Realmslore)
With races that live over 500 years, 100 years is not enough to explain some of the more drastic changes that occurred in thought of these cnturies old creatures. That's less than a single generation. That owuld be like seeing so drastic a change with humans in the span of 15 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
No previous lore is made untenable by the Gold and Silver elves of Faerun choosing to call themselves Eladrin. If "magic" effects the elves of Faerun differently after the Feywilde's now greater affinity with Faerun (I don't know this to be the case in 4e... I don't, and won't, play it), then this is in line with "in story events".
Well, that doesn't contradict anything, but there's still the big hole in the explanation of 'What happened to the Eladrin that used to exist?', and the explanation isn't very believable or logical in such a span of time.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
You seem to be getting hung up on the 3e-4e-Magic:the Gathering approach to putting "subtypes", with actual rules effects, in monster descriptions.
This is not a problem for me, because if I chose to, I could run a Realms game with GURPs, Marvel Super Heroes, or Earthdawn or 2e-3e-4e-25th Shadowrun (probably a few more) rules sets... YMMV.
I could run a realms game with those systems as well, but I'd keep track of those types and subtypes for the sole reason of how the magic affects them and what sorts of magic items use (Though I wouldn't touch GURPS with a 10 foot stick). Clearly YMMV
quote:
Originally posted by Brace CormaerilAnd, again, what lore is made untenable by, sometime between 1385 and 1480, some beings choosing to accept the term 'eladrin' as adequately synonomous with "elves".
See above. That in and of itself doesn't contradict anything (albeit not especially believable), but it is connected to many things do break continuity. Again, YMMV.
It's like when drow SLAs and magic items began to function on the surface. The explanation wasn't in the FRCS, and it bugged the crap out of me. Eventually I read Starlight and Shadows, and my head didn't hurt from the contradiction anymore. Something changed. the changes shouldn't be handwaved away, they should be explained, if they are noticeable mechanical changes. (racial ability modifiers changing a bit to fit the new ruleset doesn't matter), but if elves lost their ability to detect secret doors, that does matter.
Though I think I may expand my explanatory timeline into something more detailed, and maybe rework it to fit with canon a bit more. Your timeline makes things considerably more palatable, but don't fill in all the gaps, and create a few logic gaps.
I think this could be a very intriguing mental exercise. If we try to explain the things that changed that people consider handwaving, as things that actually changed, and the logical progression of events, the changes may be more palatable to people, and maybe it'll make post spellplague a little less unpalatable as it'll at least keep continuity with previous material. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 21 Jun 2010 01:30:56 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:24:31
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DMG, Revised Edition - December 1979.
Page 116
quote:
Magic items are made by high level magic-user, except those items which are restricted to clerics and special racial items, artifacts and relics.... Only very old, very intelligent and wise dwarves and elves who have achieved maximum level advancement are able to properly forge, fashion, and/or make these items and have the appropriate magicks and spells to change them into special items.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:29:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I'm gonna guess that English is not your first language, Kentinal?
Thank you for sharing your points of view in this thread!
You are complaining about "is also" ? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 21 Jun 2010 01:30:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 01:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, so now you're saying official content from Wizards is not canon?
Besides, look at what the scrolls could do. Glancing at one made a gnome into an illusionist... Obviously, dwarves were Denied the ability to see them to keep them from learning magic. And just as obviously, it comes from their own gods -- it was a priest of Dumathoin who explained it.
There's a lot of things posted on Wizards, oh-Fire-breathing-one-of-spinning exercise wheels, which take much effort but do not take one far. *I'd* most definitely accept it as canon, but I do not believe that "it's posted on Wizards.com" makes it FR canon.
I'm well aware of what the Nether Scrolls are purported to do, however, I am unwilling to extrapolate from this "legend" that "Obviously, dwarves were Denied the ability to see them to keep them from learning magic." You can make that leap into the void, if you wish, but I cannot.
Brace Cormaeriles natural habitat is nice, soft, atmosphere shielded firmament.
EDIT: Ok, maybe I wouldn't accept it as canon. Was this in Dragon Magazine? Was it in a wizards on-line article? All I got is a Word document hosted on Wizards web site. Either way, it's good, it flavor-ful, and written by someone Ed likes... (he likes everyone, tho) I'd like more information, as of now, this "myth" doesn't meet, I believe, the comunities standard for canon. Further, this is a "myth", so even if it is canon, the canon aspect may be that "yes, the dwarves *do* tell this tale", (even if it's aurumvorax leavings)
So all other Wizards web articles are canon, but this one isn't because they popped it up as a Word doc instead of a website? If content from the publisher of the setting isn't canon, then what is?
Does it meet the standards of this community? Well, let's see, it's content directly from Wizards, posted on their website, just like Ed articles, the Roll of Years (originally published at the same time as an RTF file), the Perilous Gateways articles and hundreds of other articles from Wizards... So yes, it meets all the necessary standards of being canon.
Leap into the void? Well, we have something saying that dwarves were denied magic, in an era when dwarves could not use magic. That's not a leap into the void, it's barely a step into a shady area. What else do you need? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:12:27
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I rewrote it. This shouldn't contradict any canon lore, but should fill in some of the gaps I mentioned that wizards made, which made me
1385DR-Spellplague, the feywild becomes more attuned with Faerun, and as the spellplague ravages the land, few even notice the changes that are wrought by the large areas where the feywild becomes in tune with the prime material. The spellplague transfers the qualities of some types of creatures onto others, transforming many fey-like creatures into true fey over the course of a few years of exposure. The elves and eladrin on the prime material, in the feywild, and in the planes of the gods, attuned to the former two, become fey instead of whatever they had been before (outsiders and humanoids). This goes unnoticed until they begin to realize they are affected by magic as fey are and they discover they have attunements to fey that they never used to have.
1395DR-Some Eladrin, who happen to live in the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient times), make contact with the nobles of the elven courts. They claim the elves originally came from their plane, and that they ruled it together. The Eladrin reintroduce the elves to troves of lost art and artifice. With the eladrin, come some ancient elven lineages native to faerie, who settle in faerun. The ancient lineages of elves consider themselves to be a kind of eladrin.
xxxDR- The 'Eladrin' elves perform high magic, tapping into the planar energies of the feywild to change the races of the faerunian elves to match their own. Some sun and moon elves resent the change they did not agree to, but many, who are allied with the natives of the feywild, see it as a gift.
xxxDR- A major calamity happens in the feywild and the planes of the elven deities, exterminating all true Eladrin, and a great number of elves in their deities realms and in the feywild, and a great number of deities begin using the souls of dead elves to replace them in their stations. What were once different types of eladrin creatures are now positions granted to different high/moon/eladrin elves.
Because these elves now serve in all the roles the Eladrin once used to, and their similar, elven allies who call themselves eladrin, the high and moon elves, now clearly a different species than the remainder of their former kin, take up the moniker of Eladrin, in honor of their dead allies and gods' servants. Most elves do not like to talk about these tragedies.
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Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 21 Jun 2010 02:14:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:12:27
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Just a friendly Moderator-based tap on the shoulder of scribes involved in the recent trends of this discussion...
I'm growing a little concerned about the perception of the nature of retcons and such being declared in this scroll. Additionally, I'm seeing some 3e versus 4e commentary starting to creep into this region of chatter.
Let's try to keep things focused on the actual topic at hand, eh? I'm really intrigued by some of the thoughts I've read so far about these retcons, and I wouldn't mind seeing that continue.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:13:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Leap into the void? Well, we have something saying that dwarves were denied magic, in an era when dwarves could not use magic.
This is not quite correct, dwarves could always use Clerical/Divine magic and racial magic (only dwarves could make that Hammer +3 Dravern Thrower). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Leap into the void? Well, we have something saying that dwarves were denied magic, in an era when dwarves could not use magic.
This is not quite correct, dwarves could always use Clerical/Divine magic and racial magic (only dwarves could make that Hammer +3 Dravern Thrower).
Sigh. Yes. But we have been speaking of dwarven use of arcane magic. I thought that was clear. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:30:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Leap into the void? Well, we have something saying that dwarves were denied magic, in an era when dwarves could not use magic. That's not a leap into the void, it's barely a step into a shady area. What else do you need?
Emphasis added.
We do not have something that says dwarves were denied magic.
I need something that says dwarves were "Denied" the ability to use magic. What we have is something significantly different. What we have is:
"Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls and the gods of the dwarves forever guard their eyes from fathoming that which is the nether scrolls."
That's it.
Nothing about being Denied that ability to use, read, or learn magic. The source you are relying upon states:
"Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls and the gods of the dwarves forever guard their eyes from fathoming that which is the nether scrolls."
I don't know what else you need. Where in the above quote does it state that dwarves are Denied the ability to use, read, or learn magic?
quote:
Only very old, very intelligent and wise dwarves and elves who have achieved maximum level advancement are able to properly forge, fashion, and/or make these items and have the appropriate magicks and spells to change them into special items.
But above, from DMG Revised 12/1979, we see that some dwarves and elves, (those that have achieved maximum level advancement) have the appropriate magicks and spells.
This source clearly states that some dwarves have magicks and spells. Wooly, you rely on supposition to assert that, due to a dwarven legend regarding the inability of the dwarves to 'see' the Nether Scrolls, that the gods of the dwarves "Denied" them the ability to learn, read or use magic.
Which certainly cannot be the case, because as you know, dwarves are not "Denied" by their gods, they just suffer a 20% fail chance to use items. Not a paticularly strong ban, for one enforced by gods.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Leap into the void? Well, we have something saying that dwarves were denied magic, in an era when dwarves could not use magic.
This is not quite correct, dwarves could always use Clerical/Divine magic and racial magic (only dwarves could make that Hammer +3 Dravern Thrower).
Sigh. Yes. But we have been speaking of dwarven use of arcane magic. I thought that was clear.
*sigh* My recent participation in thread was on how a Dwarf could even make a magical item without access to arcane magic.
In some ways the thread has gotten into what was official then and what is official now. With the occasional insult as well.
I certainly can quote more from 1st or 2nd Edition that Dwarves did have racial and divine spell casters, however no arcane spell casters until 3rd Edition. Bruenor's magic item creation certainly can be and have been answered as far as I am concerned. It was not made by arcane magic.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 21 Jun 2010 02:38:54 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:43:51
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| Magicks does not always equal arcane spells (in fact they might not even be spells). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 02:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Magicks does not always equal arcane spells (in fact they might not even be spells).
Per your source, elves and dwarves who have achieved maximum level have "have the appropriate magicks and spells" to craft magic items. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 03:03:30
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Not all spells are arcane. And the quote by Kentinal simply states that not all magick is in spells, let alone those of the arcane variety.
I think this has been pointed out Brace, but you're a bit of a stumper. You have asked about retcons that contradict previously published material. Those retcons are listed, you either discount them as retcons, or say you require further proof. Further proof is provided, and you either discount the prooof as not canon or otherwise try to ignore the point of the conflicting lore.
I'm not referring to any one specific thing in this thread, but it seems to be the trend.
As for Dwarves and magic, you do make a few good points. Here's what we have:
Dwarves cannot see the Nether Scrolls.
2e Dwarves were not allowed to be wizards except in very complicated circumstances.
3e Dwarves can be wizards, or sorcerers, etc. Class restrictions are removed.
Now, I'm all for the availability of Dwarven wizards, and a lack of class restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it the change was dealt with well. While not a contradiction of lore (it was a detail not explained), it's a contradiction of past abilities and limitations, and the reason for the contradiction isn't given, it's treated as another "this is how it's always been... go about your lives". And many people have problems with those sorts of contradictions not being explained. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 21 Jun 2010 03:15:39 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 03:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Magicks does not always equal arcane spells (in fact they might not even be spells).
Per your source, elves and dwarves who have achieved maximum level have "have the appropriate magicks and spells" to craft magic items.
quote:
dwarves and elves who have achieved maximum level advancement are able to properly forge, fashion, and/or make these items and have the appropriate magicks and spells to change them into special items.
Elves clearly have arcane spells, they also have racial spells.
Drawves clearly have divine spells and also have racial spells.
There is nothing in source that I quoted that indicates there was a Drawven Wizard (or at the time magic-user).
Oh for the record Elves also had Clerics and such access to Divine magic. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 03:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Deleted - forget it - we just keep going in circles here...
Welcome to club! Here's your ale and wings platter. Note that Brace has yet to prove his point of view either... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 03:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Magicks does not always equal arcane spells (in fact they might not even be spells).
Per your source, elves and dwarves who have achieved maximum level have "have the appropriate magicks and spells" to craft magic items.
quote:
dwarves and elves who have achieved maximum level advancement are able to properly forge, fashion, and/or make these items and have the appropriate magicks and spells to change them into special items.
Elves clearly have arcane spells, they also have racial spells.
Drawves clearly have divine spells and also have racial spells.
There is nothing in source that I quoted that indicates there was a Drawven Wizard (or at the time magic-user).
Oh for the record Elves also had Clerics and such access to Divine magic.
What do "very old, very intelligent and wise dwarves and elves who have achieved maximum level advancement" have which allows them to "properly forge, fashion, and/or make these items"?
Once again, from your source, Kentinal; "the appropriate magicks and spells to change them into special items."
Sylvae: Please provide a source for your assertion that I have discounted any retcons. I have not. I have found that most retcons have been "Additive", however. In addition, I have not ignored any conflicting lore. While some have certainly done so, (please review this scroll's dwarf topics, as we have canon sources which indicate the existence of dwarven magic-users), I have not. Some sages have attempted to make suppositions based on lore. This is untenable; I require canon sources to validate supposition.
Please review the definition of retcon we are using in this scroll, it is linked on the first page.
I don't believe that an untenable retcon, thereby meeting the metric for "Alteration" retcon, has been broached in this thread. Some have stated as much, but have been unwilling to provide sources/validation for this supposition.
Per this scroll, Sylvae, what you refer to as 'contradictions' are, in fact, retcons. (Maybe even Alteration retcons)
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4e-3e-2e-1e-0e retcons...
Topic Locked
