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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 03:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Eladrin first appeared in Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. There were many types, like the firre and the tulani. All of these were described as "elf-like", and in the cosmology of those days (Great Wheel), were the servants of the gods of Arborea, in which was Arvandor. Check out the 1st edition Deities and Demigods book (for info on Corellon) , PS MC II, Faiths and Pantheons (for 3.x) and the Manual of the Planes (any edition) for more info. Book of Exalted deeds, (3.x) details those eladrin groups left out of the SRD. Warriors of Heaven, on pg. 4, 13 and 56, details the elven 'heritage' of the eladrin, and Corellon Larethian's use of Eladrin. Warriors of Heaven also notes, however, that eladrin are not elves. So, much like Angels are to Humans, so are Eladrin to Elves.
The post above gives nothing to further the supposed special relationship between eladrin and elves in the pre-4E lore. You just gave a brief summary of their types and some sources to find more information. The most definitive source you give that alleges an "elven heritage" for eladrin is Warriors of Heaven. I could find nothing on pages 4 and 13 to indicate such. The closest is on page 13, which says "Arborean gods prefer eladrins and planetars." Once again, eladrins are not exclusive to elves; just as other celestials (angels really) are not exclusive to humans. Arvandor is not even the largest divine realm in Arborea, the Greek gods inspired the entire first layer of Arborea, the layer of Olympus itself.
Page 56 is the actual entry on Eladrin, which interestingly enough had this to say, and I quote:
"Some believe that elves who age beyond their mortal lifespans become eladrins in the elven equivalent of the afterlife. Others have suggested that the spirits of slain chaotic good elves reappear in Arborea as newly formed eladrin. The eladrins themselves are silent about the issue, but in fact neither of these suppositions is true. Though some of these faerie beings could pass for elves, and the race as a whole is on good terms with the elven pantheon, eladrins are born on Arborea to eladrin parents, not created from other mortal beings."
We can't even draw the analogy of angels to humans as eladrins to elves.
As for the "elf-like" descriptions. Let's read a bit further in Warriors of Heaven. On page 59 is an example of a noviere (an aquatic eladrin). She is a named NPC, Brieme (female novice eladrin F6/M6).
These are the first few lines in her entry, a telling image:
"Brieme's natural form is that of a lithe, blue-scaled human female with deep blue-green hair and bright, silvery eyes. Her elongated ears are pointed, but she has no webbing between her fingers and toes. She never appears in her true form on the Prime Material Plane unless she's alone."
In this instance, an eladrin is described as a human with elongated pointed ears. Seems eladrin aren't just elf-like, they are human-like as well. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 03:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
OD&D - Elves were a class, NOT a race. 
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Oh as a foot note, FR only had limited 1st Edition and never was 0 Edtition.
Ed's pre-TSR Realms are sometimes referred to as the 'Zeroeth Edition'.
Thats the Realms I want!
My wish for 5E is they(WotC) let Ed and a few Freelancers(George, Brian, Matt, and some others work on the Realms... |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 07:24:07
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Regarding the similar appearance of elves, some fey, and some eladrins, I would argue that one of two things happened: 1) the elven pantheon created the elves inspired by the forms of the eladrin (CG outsiders), or 2) the elves and fey were both the creations of the eladrin who created them in their own image, and later the mortal elves' worship created gods who looked similar to that same mold.
The eladrin being older in any event than the elven pantheon, but themselves the creations of the since vanished race that once occupied the layer of Pelion/Mithardiir (seemingly as a CG analog of such things as the CE Obyriths, NE Baernaloths, etc).
But of course more in line with the thread as a whole, 4e produced a truly massive retcon on the cosmology as adherence to the PoL core cosmology was apparently mandated. |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 07:39:02
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While several of the Eladrin types (that exists in 3.5) resemble elves, one can NOT ignore the fact that their character attributes (Str, Dex, et cetera) are VERY different from those of ANY elven sub-race. Thus, it IS a retroactive continuity. Meaning, that it CONTRADICTS earlier established facts!
If you feel the need to deny this, Brace, I have to wonder if you weren't on the 4E-design-team yourself... Oh wait, I do that already.  |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 09:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
My wish for 5E is they(WotC) let Ed and a few Freelancers(George, Brian, Matt, and some others work on the Realms...
Only in a perfect universe would that ever happen
Mind you, since 4e came out only 4? or so years after 3.5e, we shouldn't have to wait too long before they need to revise the system once more  amirite? |
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Edited by - Talwyn on 16 Jun 2010 09:48:10 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 09:52:27
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Well, a quick look at my races of faerun confirmed to me, that wood elves are a blend of all the elven races. This would mean they are wild, sun, moon, and possibly drow. the 4e classification would make them more than half eladrin, and less than half wild-elf. This would beg the question (to me at least) "why can't they suddenly teleport too then?".
however,
While this thread seems partially an argument, I was hoping for useful information. Here's what I'd like to know:
"What was published after GHoTR that affects any material before 1385DR?"
I got some useful information from the first few posts before things sortof evolved. any chance instead of debating what qualifies, could everyone list anything they think qualifies? Not a matter of what you like, or disputing what others see as ret-cons, just a simple list. I find the information interesting for myself. Will I like all of them? no. Will I like some of them? Most likely.
4e Realms Retcons
=================
1. Returned Abeir
2. Eladrin: They gain the ability to teleport, racial muddying between elves and CG outsiders.
3. Elves are fey.
4. Elemental Gods = Primordials (Can I get the details of which ones?)
5. Demi-Human Gods as aspects of human gods. (Can I get the details of which ones?)
6. Cosmology: No Great Tree or Wheel
7. ? |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 10:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
<snip>
4e Realms Retcons
=================
1. Returned Abeir
2. Eladrin: They gain the ability to teleport, racial muddying between elves and CG outsiders.
3. Elves are fey.
4. Elemental Gods = Primordials (Can I get the details of which ones?)
5. Demi-Human Gods as aspects of human gods. (Can I get the details of which ones?)
6. Cosmology: No Great Tree or Wheel
7. ?
Points 4 & 5 were discussed in great detail on WotC with the advent of 4e. Lemme see... Found it!
Lathander = Amaunator
Hanali Celanil = Sune
Sehanine = Selune
Aerdrie Faenya = Akadi
Talos = Gruumsh
Yondalla = Chauntea
Rillifane = Silvanus (unconfirmed)
Lots of gods' fates' are unknown. Most nonhuman, for example. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 11:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
4e Realms Retcons
=================
1. Returned Abeir
2. Eladrin: They gain the ability to teleport, racial muddying between elves and CG outsiders.
3. Elves are fey.
4. Elemental Gods = Primordials (Can I get the details of which ones?)
5. Demi-Human Gods as aspects of human gods. (Can I get the details of which ones?)
6. Cosmology: No Great Tree or Wheel
7. ?
7. Dragonborns 4e =/= Dragonborns 3.5 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 11:52:04
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Yeah I knew dragonborn were completely different from dragonkin. Before 4e I showed up to a live chat with the game designers, and after they described all the "New Awesome Stuff"
I imediately asked: "So how does this affect FR's already existing race of dragonpeople, the dragonkin?"
and I was told something along the lines of:
"Completely unrelated. Dragonkin aren't planned for any of the 4e FR supplements, but you can make rules for them if you wish." |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 12:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Yeah I knew dragonborn were completely different from dragonkin. Before 4e I showed up to a live chat with the game designers, and after they described all the "New Awesome Stuff"
I imediately asked: "So how does this affect FR's already existing race of dragonpeople, the dragonkin?"
and I was told something along the lines of:
"Completely unrelated. Dragonkin aren't planned for any of the 4e FR supplements, but you can make rules for them if you wish."
Not dragonkin, those are something else. There was a dragonborn race in 3.5. They were demihumans who decided to serve Bahamut and underwent a ritual that ended with them hatching from an egg and looking something like 4E's dragonborn.
The 3.5 dragonborn were core, and not Realms... But it still would have been better if the 4E race had been called something different. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 16:02:34
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| Regarding the Dragonborn, they simply arrived along with Returned Abeir (remember that this does not only consist of the continent of Abeir, but portions scattered here and there on the continent of Faerun). So they are in effect an addition (possible retcon being in the ancient history when Abeir and Toril were originally together, depending on your view of "retcon") |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 22:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Eladrin first appeared in Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. There were many types, like the firre and the tulani. All of these were described as "elf-like", and in the cosmology of those days (Great Wheel), were the servants of the gods of Arborea, in which was Arvandor. Check out the 1st edition Deities and Demigods book (for info on Corellon) , PS MC II, Faiths and Pantheons (for 3.x) and the Manual of the Planes (any edition) for more info. Book of Exalted deeds, (3.x) details those eladrin groups left out of the SRD. Warriors of Heaven, on pg. 4, 13 and 56, details the elven 'heritage' of the eladrin, and Corellon Larethian's use of Eladrin. Warriors of Heaven also notes, however, that eladrin are not elves. So, much like Angels are to Humans, so are Eladrin to Elves.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard: The most definitive source you give that alleges an "elven heritage" for eladrin is Warriors of Heaven. I could find nothing on pages 4 and 13 to indicate such.
My apologies; I thought that I was clear on the point above, that in fact eladrin are *not* elves. (I've quoted myself above and added bold for emphasis.) I'll admit, I'm not particularly clear on Candlekeeps policy on quoting from published sources, but I'll add one more from Warriors of Heaven, regarding the "elven heritage" of eladrin. Warriors of Heaven states (pg. 7): "Eladrin are in fact a separate species, only distantly related to elves."
I can find no sources which state that Aasimar, Devas, or "Angels" are in anyway related to any mortal species.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard: The closest is on page 13, which says "Arborean gods prefer eladrins and planetars." Once again, eladrins are not exclusive to elves; just as other celestials (angels really) are not exclusive to humans. Arvandor is not even the largest divine realm in Arborea, the Greek gods inspired the entire first layer of Arborea, the layer of Olympus itself.
I provided the earliest D&D reference (Deities and Demigods 1e) to Corellon Larethian, head of the Seldarine. It states in that text that Corellon's home plane is Olympus. Unless Corellon is a Greek deity, it is apparent that deities besides the Greek pantheon are extant therein. In addition, Arborea is infinitely large, the layer of Olympus within it is infinitely large, and the realm or Arvandor, within Olympus, is itself infinitely large. None of these realms, layers or planes are "larger" than another. Table 11, from the Warriors of Heaven "web-enhancement", gives just this demarcation of the Seldarine's realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
We can't even draw the analogy of angels to humans as eladrins to elves.
This may well be the case; whereas Eladrin *are* related to Elves, I have yet to reveal any canon sources which indicate human are related to "angels"....
Can some one point me to a canon source on "Angels"? I am familiar with the various Aasimar... but not Angels. Is this a 4e thing?
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard:
As for the "elf-like" descriptions. Let's read a bit further in Warriors of Heaven. On page 59 is an example of a noviere (an aquatic eladrin). She is a named NPC, Brieme (female novice eladrin F6/M6).
These are the first few lines in her entry, a telling image:
"Brieme's natural form is that of a lithe, blue-scaled human female with deep blue-green hair and bright, silvery eyes. Her elongated ears are pointed, but she has no webbing between her fingers and toes. She never appears in her true form on the Prime Material Plane unless she's alone."
In this instance, an eladrin is described as a human with elongated pointed ears. Seems eladrin aren't just elf-like, they are human-like as well.
Indeed, some eladrin certainly "appear" human-like and elf-like. I don't believe that anyone engaged in this discussion consider that enough to draw a connection between the groups. However, Warriors of Heaven does state that elves are related to Eladrin (pg. 7), that the Arborean gods (of which Corellon is one) use them as servants (pg.13), and that, although planar natives, are not immortal, like planetars and the like (pgs. 7 and 56).
To make my point completely clear, as it seems to have been lost. I do not believe that eladrin and elves are the same "species". I also believe, that from the "Important Facts" sidebar (quoted again below) in FRCS4e, neither do the 4e designers. Others interpretation of that sidebar, will, undoubtedly, vary.
From the FRCS4e: (bold added for emphasis)
9. Ancient elven lineages have returned to Faerūn.
With the reappearance of the Feywild, its natives
have begun exploring the world again. These fey
folk collectively call themselves eladrin, and many
Faerūnian elves have also adopted this name for
their lineage, though they have not forgotten their
traditional cultural distinctions and names. In casual
speech, the world elven collectively refers to the two
branches of this fey people: elves and eladrin.
If the Elves of Faerun were always descended from the Eladrin, but we never knew it, it is an Additive ret-con as of the publication of Warriors of Heaven. If the Elves gained new abilities due to the new proximity of the Feywilde, and some groups have chosen to adopt a new name which more closely identifies them with the twilight courts of the Feywilde, at some point in the nigh-hundred years between WotC support of 3e-4e, then this is not a retcon at all, as it follows "in-world" events, better known as change.
And as the Old Mage of Shadowdale once said, "The only promise you can never keep, is to never change."
Quick question: On page 8 of the published GHoTR, links to Faerie and the elves are noted in some sections. Is this previously published lore, 4e segue material?
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 16 Jun 2010 22:22:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 02:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Regarding the Dragonborn, they simply arrived along with Returned Abeir (remember that this does not only consist of the continent of Abeir, but portions scattered here and there on the continent of Faerun). So they are in effect an addition (possible retcon being in the ancient history when Abeir and Toril were originally together, depending on your view of "retcon")
The arrival of dragonborn in the Realms is indeed not a ret-con, except by extension (since they come from Abeir, itself a retcon).
However, 3.x had an entirely separate race called dragonborn. These dragonborn, as mentioned previously, were born human or demihuman and then underwent a ritual that resulted in their rebirth as dragonborn.
And since this was a Core race, it meant they could be used in the Realms.
But with 4E, we have a race called dragonborn that has an entirely different story. And it appears that the 3.x version of dragonborn don't exist anymore.
So the official existence of dragonborn in the Realms isn't exactly a retcon, but the facts are that this is an entirely separate race called by the exact same name and that the previous race is gone. This could easily be considered a retcon.
Me, I don't call it a retcon as much as I call it sloppy. I don't think the racial backstory of the 4E dragonborn fits them calling their race that (they hate dragons, so they call their race something that implies descent from dragons?). And using the same name for entirely different races just leads to confusion and potential continuity issues. It would have been far better if they'd called the 4E race something different -- and the only reason I think the 4E race should have been renamed is because that would have been easier than renaming the already published 3.x race. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 02:52:08
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The link to Faerie was established by Elaine Cunningham in Evermeet: Island of Elves in the opening of the book.
The Elves came from Faerie, where their island city of Tintageer was sinking, doomed by some unknown menace or source (from OUR POV, but perhaps not the Elves that were present). A few gold and one Silver elf managed to create a gate and get themselves to Faerūn.
Yes, ONE Silver Elf and a handful of Gold Elves. I think that dude makes Elminster and King Azoun put together look like fumbling virgins...
Anyhow... fortunately there were Green Elves present when they arrived - many tribes of them, and supposedly all these Elves must have done the nasty to breed entirely new groups of gold and silver Elves in Faerūn (which makes me suddenly realize the need for that bit of lore about Elves 'breeding true').
It is NEVER mentioned in the novel how those 'other elves' (and yeah, they were ALL Elves, NOT Eladrin) came to be on Toril first, but that was back-filled in the GHotR (leading to even more confusion - it appears they were sent on ahead... that somehow the Fey either knew about the eventual destruction of the Elven capital, or even perpetrated it themselves for whatever reason).
At a later point Dark Elves are encountered... that after the earlier mention of green/Wood Elves on Toril (which is why I always felt the Dark Elves - the Ilythiir - were just one clan amongst many Green Elves that were on Toril). Dark Elves are never mentioned as a seperate, distinct group until after the arrival of the Gold/Silver/Grey/Eladrin/High Elves to Toril.
Which is why saying that normal, pre-Drow, Dark Elves are/were green/Wood Elves is NOT a retcon. Drow and dark Elves are not, and never were, the same thing. A large portion of dark Elves (all?) evolved (some would say 'devolved') into Drow, but saying the two are the same is liking saying caterpillars are just like butterflys.
And BTW, that beginning in Elaine's novel is where the theory about Tintageer being 'sunk' by the Elves' own hubris originates, when they later cast the spell that created Evermeet (the nature of the universe requires balance - nothing can be created whole-cloth without something of equal value being lost). That is how that 'supposition' (maybe-canon?) made it into the GHotR on pg. 11
EDIT: Nowhere is it mentioned when the third group of Eladrin - the star Elves - arrived, nor any explanation of when and how the Avariel and Lythari came to be (weather created on Toril, or were they also arrivals from Faerie?) Avariels are mentioned fairly early-on in E:IoE, so one can assume they, too, were here before the Eladrin. I think newer lore makes them out to be an off-shoot of Eladrin as well, which doesn't exactly contradict older lore, but it does change the fact that the group focused on in E:IoE was NOT the very first group of Gold/Silver/Eladrin on Toril.
Both Elaine's work and the GHotR do not mention when they (Avariels) arrived, but by NOT mentioning it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all - the lack of lore gives no evidence either way (weather they arrived before, or shortly after). Avariels are also present on Mystara, which came first publication-wise, but I don't know that world well-enough to know if they pre-dated the canon Avariel in Elaine's novel. That may have helped us pinpoint weather they were from Faerie (by NOT being mutually exclusive to Toril).
Either way, like I said, the problem really isn't how all these groups are related - I actually agree with WotC's decisions on this one - I just think using the same name as an earlier established group for that same group AND an umbrella group that includes the Green Elves and High/Gray (our Sun & Moon) was very poor planning/semantics.
That means an Eladrin is an Eladrin, a green (Wood/Wild (Grugach)/Dark) Elf is an Eladrin, and a Sun/Moon/Star Elf is Eladrin, but an Eladrin isn't necessarilly a green elf. I'm not even sure if a Torillian Eladrin (the former Gold/Silver) is considered the same as the Planer Eladrin - THAT's how confusing this has become, all because they didn't come up with some new umbrella term for the whole shebang (which NO-ONE - probably - would have complained about).
Also, we have no idea still how the Eladrin/Elves are related to the fey/Le'Shay! Since apparently the fey sent some of them out of faerie for whatever reason all those years ago, there IS a connection.
I'm thinking WotC is going to becoming out with a new sourcebook very soon about the Feywild, and we will finally get some canon info about these strange inter-connections.
Will we like it? I doubt it... but some lore is better then the current derth of lore amidst all these changes. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jun 2010 19:28:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 03:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Quick question: On page 8 of the published GHoTR, links to Faerie and the elves are noted in some sections. Is this previously published lore, 4e segue material?
Previously published Realmslore. We've references to these elements in pre-4e sources and novels. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 03:53:13
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I have problems keeping track of broken up quotes myself on this forum. So I will just direct comments to the key points.
In regards to Candlekeep policy about quoting. I don't think there is such a guideline, but direct quotes are a good way to get information across in the most direct manner. The pages you indicated in your previous post simply did not support the elven heritage you put forth. However, the quote you provided from page 7 of Warriors of Heaven does so quite clearly. So given that line, I agree eladrin are only distantly related to elves.
As for whether other outsiders are related to mortal (prime material) species, technically they are all related since the aasimon, archons and asuras (the three celestial races that most closely resemble angels) work under different rules than the eladrin or guardinals.
Regarding Arvandor vs Olympus issue. My point was you seem to take that because the elven deities use eladrin as agents and the eladrin dwell in Arvandor that eladrin have a special, almost exclusive, relationships with elves. That is not the case as previously shown. My choice of words might have been unclear, but I meant to point out that the pre-eminent influence on Olympus was not the elves and their realm of Arvandor. Other pantheons dwell in Arborea and specifically Olympus (where WoH say Eladrin spend most of their time). Your comments seemed to constantly make a leap of logic to assume that Arborea or Arborean equates to elves.
Regarding Angels and humans: the "angels" of DnD, the aasimon and such are made from the souls of mortals, so they all can be related to all mortal races, including humans, including elves, dwarves, orcs (if they so happen to be of the right caliber), what have you.
Regarding the FRCS 4E sidebar: Here's the heart of the question. Forget the question of whether eladrin have elven heritage (more likely it is the elves who have some distant eladrin heritage). The previous pre-4E sources go out of their way to say that elves and eladrin are different species that have no direct relation to each other, only very distant links.
The FRCS 4E says "Ancient elven lineages have returned to Faerun." It is unclear what exactly they mean by ancient elven lineages. Do they mean feywild native elves or beings like the pre-4E eladrins? If they mean the equivalent of eladrin are ancient elven lineages, then that is a retcon, since eladrin are not elves and really cannot be considered a part of elven lineages as previous editions have never given described them as distinctly and definitively elven, merely elf-like.
"With the reappearance of the Feywild, its natives
have begun exploring the world again. These fey
folk collectively call themselves eladrin
"
So who are these fey-folk exactly? Are they native feywild elves, actual fey, or Planescape eladrins?
"
and many Faerūnian elves have also adopted this name for
their lineage, though they have not forgotten their
traditional cultural distinctions and names. In casual
speech, the world elven collectively refers to the two
branches of this fey people: elves and eladrin."
Isn't that a retcon in itself? Elves were only distantly related to fey in previous editions. In 4E they seem to describe all elves as a fey people.
So the question remains, did the 4E elves just borrow the eladrin name or are they the replacement for the eladrin, thus in 4E designer parlance "kill the eladrins and take their stuff" including their name and role on the planes. I'm not talking about technicalities and distant relations. I'm talking about the design space, the eladrin's place amongst the DnD cosmology. The 4E eladrin are not a retcon only if there are actual beings called eladrin with the same relative traits compared to elves and other outsiders as in previous editions.
I'm not familiar with 4E, but a quick resolution to this would be:
Does 4E have a "monster" that is to the 4E elf/eladrin as there was a pre-4E eladrin to a pre-4E elf?
If there is not, the 4E did indeed retcon the eladrin into elves because the 4E eladrin seem to take the place of the old eladrin, retcon'ing the distinctively elven bits into them (the DnD definition of elven with the mechanics and all).
If some fey-folk are named as the true 4E eladrin, then that is still a retcon. Eladrin were not fey, they were chaotic good outsiders. So 4E would have to produce a good outsider equivalent with traits similar to the old eladrins (preferably with similar names and distinctions between sub-types like tulani, ghaele, firre, noviere, etc), with comparable abilities given the new mechanics, and fills that design space, that role within the cosmology give or take a bit due to the change in the cosmology's design.
Do eladrin with the traits that made them a distinct DnD species with a role in the game in previous editions still exist with those traits more or less intact in the 4E era?
Edit: I just Wiki'ed the info. While I don't have the details, the 4E Monster Manual has the eladrins known as bralani of autumn winds and ghaele of winter. Also listed under eladrin are eladrin fey knight. Elves have the traits of humanoid and fey and it seems eladrin is just another term or high elf. Player's Handbook has the shiere knight paragon path, a class progression.
Again, I don't have the details, but certainly it seems a distinct race of eladrin not longer exist in 4E, their outsider characteristics are intermingled with the fey and the elves. An eladrin character, presumably an elven eladrin, can now progress to be a shiere knight, formerly a distinct sub-type of outsider eladrin. Indeed, the elven eladrin of 4E did killed the old eladrins and take their stuff.
As Markus noted previously, for each person their "Retcon" threshold is different, but it sure seems to me the eladrin of 4E are not like the eladrin of previous editions. They have some characteristics of the old eladrins certainly, but also many new traits pulled from previously distinct races and monsters. While technically the eladrin of old have some distant relation to elves, they were never actually elves. In 4E, that relationship seems to have been increased greatly to the point where elven eladrin can become planar eladrin shiere. Throw the fey in there and I don't know how else to splice it. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 17 Jun 2010 04:26:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 04:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
In regards to Candlekeep policy about quoting. I don't think there is such a guideline, but direct quotes are a good way to get information across in the most direct manner.
Section B.3 of the 'Candlekeep Code of Conduct' --
quote:
3. Avoid posting large amounts of text quoted directly from WotC products. If you feel the need to do so, please keep the amount of text to a minimum (a couple of paragraphs at the most) and place the text within the Quote box (use the quote icon on the posting toolbar above the text area), stating the product title and page number from which the text was taken.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 04:19:12
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| Thanks Sage. Please inform me if I have violated that rule, I will make the proper corrections as soon as I can. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 17 Jun 2010 04:44:16 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 04:59:54
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| I had the impression that Wild Elves were Green Elves. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 05:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Thanks Sage. Please inform me if I have violated that rule, I will make the proper corrections as soon as I can.
Aye. Just thought it best to clarify Candlekeep's position on quoting from official sources...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 05:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I had the impression that Wild Elves were Green Elves.
The issue many have with the origins of the wood elves and wild elves in 3e was based on previous lore -- the fact that most of the 1e/2e FR sourcebooks made the connection between wild and wood elves and how they were essentially the same race. Elaine Cunningham's novels during 2e that feature wood/wild elven characters also portray this and she has made comments about it here at Candlekeep.
Then, in Races of Faerūn, we're told that in the aftermath of the savage Crown Wars, it was then that the green elves went in one of two racial directions -- leading to the split in 1e/2e Green/Wood/Wild Elves that we saw in 3e. Some elves stayed "kind of" wild and remained green elves, or civilised a touch and became wood [copper] elves. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jun 2010 05:13:26 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 13:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertThe arrival of dragonborn in the Realms is indeed not a ret-con, except by extension (since they come from Abeir, itself a retcon).
However, 3.x had an entirely separate race called dragonborn. These dragonborn, as mentioned previously, were born human or demihuman and then underwent a ritual that resulted in their rebirth as dragonborn.
And since this was a Core race, it meant they could be used in the Realms.
But with 4E, we have a race called dragonborn that has an entirely different story. And it appears that the 3.x version of dragonborn don't exist anymore.
So the official existence of dragonborn in the Realms isn't exactly a retcon, but the facts are that this is an entirely separate race called by the exact same name and that the previous race is gone. This could easily be considered a retcon.
Me, I don't call it a retcon as much as I call it sloppy. I don't think the racial backstory of the 4E dragonborn fits them calling their race that (they hate dragons, so they call their race something that implies descent from dragons?). And using the same name for entirely different races just leads to confusion and potential continuity issues. It would have been far better if they'd called the 4E race something different -- and the only reason I think the 4E race should have been renamed is because that would have been easier than renaming the already published 3.x race.
True. However they were only mentioned in the Races of the Dragon core book, which like you said, by extension makes them a viable 3.xE race for the realms, but weren't specifically mentioned in any FR specific manner anywhere (as far as I remember, correct me anyone if I am wrong). So assuming this is the case, then it could be more in a grayish debatable area of retcon. You could even go so far as to debate in which way it is retconned. They could be considered the same race but the details left unkown in the realms until the spellplague (with just a few who portaled perhaps from Abeir prior to the event), or the same thing but the spellplague changed how the race is in the realms (akin to Eladrin), or any number of other options (them not having really existed either and thus not being a retcon, being a possibility). Again, the possibilities being due to the fact that they have not had an FR specific write up.
Despite the official ruling on this however, I feel it gives DMs plenty of freedom to put their own spin on the relationship between pre and post spellplague dragonborn. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 16:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
True. However they were only mentioned in the Races of the Dragon core book, which like you said, by extension makes them a viable 3.xE race for the realms, but weren't specifically mentioned in any FR specific manner anywhere (as far as I remember, correct me anyone if I am wrong). *snip*
Dragonborn were mentioned in Dragons of Faerun and firmly incorporated into the Realms (there are organizations and realms caring for them). Since then, many humanoids have heard the call of the Justicebringer and underwent the transformation to become his children.
So your argument is moot. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
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Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 17:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
True. However they were only mentioned in the Races of the Dragon core book, which like you said, by extension makes them a viable 3.xE race for the realms, but weren't specifically mentioned in any FR specific manner anywhere (as far as I remember, correct me anyone if I am wrong). *snip*
Dragonborn were mentioned in Dragons of Faerun and firmly incorporated into the Realms (there are organizations and realms caring for them). Since then, many humanoids have heard the call of the Justicebringer and underwent the transformation to become his children.
So your argument is moot.
And thus do I stand corrected 
Forgot all about that book
Retcon it is  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 17 Jun 2010 17:27:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 19:38:27
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Wood Elves are like the Tolienesque Wood Elves - they don't want you in THEIR forests, so stay the hell out (unless you are another Elf).
Wild Elves are more 'feral' (primitive?), and remind me of the Dragonlance Elves or Greyhawk's Grugach. They don't want you in their forests either, but rather then let you know they will probably just shoot first and ask questions later (EVEN if you are another kind of Elf!).
Technically Eladrin are in the Norse pantheon as well... they just call them Vanir.
And if you have trouble placing Eladrin with the Olympians, think 'Dryad', 'Satyr', 'Centaur', etc.... Fey-related races are part of MANY pantheons.
Just my 2 cents - sorry for the slight off-topicness. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 03:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Thanks for the reply, THO. I was probably getting overly rhetorical with my example, re:Cormyr's Regency.
Using your definition, THO, then the elves becoming Eladrin must *not be a ret-con*, neither an Addition ret-con or an Alteration ret-con, because the Elves (Tel'Quessir) become Eladrin (Tel'Quessir) "follows on from an in-world event in a logical manner and is thus part of the unfolding history of the Realms." That in-world event being the drifting Feywilde...
No where in the histories of the elves have they ever called themselves "Eladrin." This is because Eladrin, from their beginnings in 2E, have always been the "Chaotic Good celestials" of the D&D Mythology. There were different types and all with special abilities. They were an extraplanar race, not even from the Feywild but from Arborea/Arvandor in the Outer Planes. They have been established as thus and it hasn't changed since. They're even known to have waged a great planar war eons ago with the demons of The Abyss.
Until 4th Edition.
First, after ridding the game with Law and Chaos, any creatures associated with such alignments were also lost or altered completely (both are retcons). Next came the strange need for a WoW "Blood Elf" version for D&D as a playable race, because for some reason having the Elf race alone wasn't enough. So they then decided to use the term Eladrin for a newly created race of elves that are "mortals living in a different form of existence."
To shoehorn this into the Realms, their explanation was simply the elves were always known as Eladrin in times past when they came from the Plane of Faerie (aka Feywild). Which is impossible, because Eladrin have always been established as CG celestials with no relation to elves at all except in appearance.
These are all retcons. Most retcons, I believe, are Altered ones, and the ones most folk despise. (with good reason!) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 03:55:30
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I said I was going to leave this thread alone. But since BC has decided to bring the subject up on other threads, I thought I'd respond here. (Especially since he's claiming that all the ret-cons [wow, now he agrees there ARE ret-cons!] are additive.)
Eladrin is NOT Additive ret-con, it is ALTERATION ret-con (taking something that was already there and changing it).
The death of numerous deities and merging of entire pantheons is SUBTRACTIVE ret-con (removing items from canonical lore).
Now, before he comes back in here and tells us that they aren't ret-con because they are story-driven, may I point out that ALL ret-cons are story-driven? That, after all, is the most commonly accepted definition of ret-con: changing things from previously written lore through the use of updated stories that say "Remember what we said before? Scratch that, here's the REAL story." After all, if there was a way to change canon OUTSIDE of writing new stories, then there would be no reason for them to SELL us new stories, would there?
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 04:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Now, before he comes back in here and tells us that they aren't ret-con because they are story-driven, may I point out that ALL ret-cons are story-driven? That, after all, is the most commonly accepted definition of ret-con: changing things from previously written lore through the use of updated stories that say "Remember what we said before? Scratch that, here's the REAL story." After all, if there was a way to change canon OUTSIDE of writing new stories, then there would be no reason for them to SELL us new stories, would there?
I wouldn't say all retcons are story-driven... Dwarven magic use is a notable example. Before 3E, dwarves did not, as a race, use arcane magic (the Realms had a couple oddballs that did, but only a couple). They were, in fact, highly resistant to magic -- to the point that magic items that weren't class-specific had a 20% chance of failing when used by dwarves.
And then 3E comes along, and dwarves are using magic just like any other race. And despite having an excellent opportunity to explain it, it was just ignored. One sentence could have explained it, but the designers apparently opted against that -- so what could have been explained as something new became a retcon, instead. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 04:38:05
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Also, to accentuate my previous post with an analogy:
It's always been known and said that Super Mario is an Italian plumber. For Nintendo to suddenly start saying that he has officially always been an Irish plumber with an Italian accent would be a retcon. An Alteration one, at that. And one that would definitely split an old-generation gaming community, spark heated debate, and cause Nintendo to lose money on future Irish, Italian-accented Mario games.
Personally, additions to lore is the only thing one can do to a campaign setting to keep most fans happy. The addition of the City of Shade, the articles on how the new 3E Classes fit into the Realms written by Eytan, adding Realmslore to new monsters (loved that about the MM3, 4, and 5!), and so on. When things begin to change, or even ignore, previous lore than that is when hell breaks loose. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 04:47:55
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Now you see, that just proves that every point is arguable, especially in a setting as vast as FR.
If some 'oddball' Dwarves did indeed use magic, then the 3e 'change' was not a retcon at all. Obviously Dwarves could always 'do magic' but simply preferred not to.
In fact, I can point you to 2 examples of Dwarven magic. First, Bruenor constructed a magic Warhammer for Wulfgar - something requiring magical ability to do (as per the rules). There was also a city in Murghom (who's name escapes me ATM) that the Dwarves obliterated using magic, ostensibly because it was built in their territory (and it was Rune magic, but magic none-the-less).
Dwarves may have not been using magic simply as a cultural thing, but its obvious to me they had some - just look at the Wyrmskull throne, or The Axe of the Dwarven Lords.
If anything, I would say any form of magic that didn't include the physical shaping of an item or rune was prone to their magical resilience. In fact, I would take it a step further and say the Runes themselves were a means of bypassing that resilience (Moradin probably slapped them with some sort of 'crafting required' prerequisite).
Then after the ToT, they discovered that their natural resilience was fading, for whatever reason, and that they needn't be dependent upon Runes anymore to perform magic. By the time 3rd edition rolled around they had developed their own magical traditions again - assume a bunch of 'closet spellcasters' came forward and began to teach the young.
Hmmmm... Runes required to bypass inherent magical resistance... I think I just folded a new bit of lore into my homebrew...
Edit: Just read Razz's post...
Mario IS an Irish plumber - he even had a drinking problem (you don't think he was seeing REAL mushroom people all the time, do you?) His parents moved out of Ireland during the potato famine when he was very young, and that's why he has an Italian accent. Technically, he has duel citizenship. Luigi, on the other hand, was actually born in Italy, and served in Mussolini's army as cook. In fact, EVERYONE in Mussolini's army served as a cook....
That explains much.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jun 2010 04:53:08 |
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4e-3e-2e-1e-0e retcons...
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