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Dinnin
Seeker
Australia
53 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2010 : 07:53:25
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Hey Guys
Just a question, ive had it come up a few times with other party memebers. Do paladins need to be good? They Worship a specific diety so if its a LE one then that should still work right? Thats my arguemnt, the other people say that they have to be LG
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"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 08:11:14
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| 3.5e (and earlier) clearly says Paladin have to be LG (not accounting the adaptions other places which made Paladinseque classes for CG, LE and CE) ... 4e as far as i remember/aware just retooled it into a holy warrior of their god, making them able to be all alignments |
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She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 09:11:03
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Just what Sian said.
However, in 3.5, not counting any alt rules, Paladins can worship Sune. One of the few gods that allow that.
As a divine caster, Paladins need to worship patron deity. Seeing as Paladins need to be LG by class, that only leaves NG, LG, LN gods. However, like I said above, Sune allows them in her fold. |
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Edited by - Dracons on 27 May 2010 09:12:14 |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 09:37:25
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Perhaps the Blackguard Prc is what you are looking for?
In my campaign paladins have to be LG, and most of the time they are humans or individuals who was raised among humans.
Imho not all Gods sponsor paladins, they may have Holy warriors but no paladins for example i cant imagine a Elven paladin of Correlon, neither the Elven cultoure nor the Aligment (Elves tend to be chaotic)
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 11:26:00
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| See, I had a half-elf half-orc paladin of Corelleon player. But we used the paladin of freedom varient for that. |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 13:31:58
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| In the book Unearthed Arcana, there are some Paladin variants. The Prestige Paladin is particularly tasty. Check out Unearthed Arcana for all your class/rule variant needs. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 04:42:01
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| Is there no LN paladin? |
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"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:04:41
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| Paladins are seen more as having strong belief in their ideals, so the usually don't fall into any neutralities regarding alignment. |
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That book mentioned other ways to create variants, as I recall, and there was a write-up in a 3.5 era Warriors-themed issue of Dragon. (forget which #- I have it, but not at hand at the moment) It had several variants (the original version of the Unearthed Arcana materail, i believe) and ideas for creating new ones, as well.
DragonDex is a beautiful thing...
Paladins, Variant:
"Not Your Father's Do-Gooder" Mike McArtor #323(p.104)
"Law and Chaos" Jonathan Drain #349(p.92)
I'm pretty sure the first article is the one you're thinking of, Alystra. 
Edit: In my campaigns, we allow paladins of almost any deity, and therefore almost any alignment; the only restriction is that the paladin never sway from the alignment of his or her deity. Deities of nature don't have paladins; they have rangers for that kind of thing.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 28 May 2010 05:26:37 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:44:09
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| I made a bunch of Paladins for various Greater Gods. Each of them had their own special powers and abilites based on such greater god. Have yet to put it in play. |
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Katans
Acolyte
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 08:32:23
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3.X pallys are usually LG, however, there are a bunch of variants for different alignments. See Unearthed Arcana and various Dragon Magazines.
A Paladin's alignment is in no way linked to his or her deity's. The "one step" restriction that applies to Clerics does not apply to paladins. |
Edited by - Katans on 28 May 2010 08:32:51 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 11:13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Katans
A Paladin's alignment is in no way linked to his or her deity's. The "one step" restriction that applies to Clerics does not apply to paladins.
It is in Forgotten Realms.
Look under the Paladin description in Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
All Paladins are devotted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins. The paladin's deity must be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good. The only exception is for Sune. Under the Choosing a Patron it goes on to state that all divine casters, even druids, rangers and such, must be within one step of their deity alignment. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 20:58:25
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| Thank you, Jakk, for those issue #'s. I think it was the one in #349- is that the one with the two chicks in slit skirts with swords on the cover? Or was that #323? I remember it had articles on Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue combos, a great article on Monk variants, and a few small PrC's. They did another one like it for spellcasting classes the very next issue. (I loved the bard variants, especially the Green Ear!) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 09:49:38
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| There's nothing wrong with having evil champions of the gods or "black Knights", but using the term Paladin seems wrong to me. Champion yes, but not Paladin. The whole archetype is tied to the idea of the valorous chivalric knights of good. I am not a fan of the class in the first place, especially in the Realms as I think it fits in a world with a clearer positioning of "good" and "evil", but the whole idea of the class is to much tied to the idea of a warrior and protector of what's seen as right to be modified in my opinion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 15:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
There's nothing wrong with having evil champions of the gods or "black Knights", but using the term Paladin seems wrong to me. Champion yes, but not Paladin. The whole archetype is tied to the idea of the valorous chivalric knights of good. I am not a fan of the class in the first place, especially in the Realms as I think it fits in a world with a clearer positioning of "good" and "evil", but the whole idea of the class is to much tied to the idea of a warrior and protector of what's seen as right to be modified in my opinion.
Agreed, all the way across. I've also advocated using a term like Champion to describe a divinely souped up warrior-type. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 19:12:07
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| One could use the Crusader class from the deities books as a model for various holy warriors, but ( I could be wrong here, its been years since I looked at the class) I seem to remember them being seriously over-powered. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
734 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 19:16:03
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| Although it is probably not too relevant anymore, under 1E, there were eight NPC "paladin" classes, published in two early issues of Dragon Magazine: the anit-paladin (CE, #39), and seven more paladin-like NPC classes (#106): Myrikan (NG), Garath (CG), Lyan (LN), Paramander (N), Fantra (CN), Illrigger (LE), and Arrikan (NE). |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2010 : 12:23:02
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I've always been a fan of allowing paladins for evil gods - a long as it makes sense. Bane would perhaps be the obvious one.
I've never really liked paladins as a base class though. They seem much better suited as a Prc. Does anyone have any experience running them thus? |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2010 : 04:26:25
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I really like the idea of each extreme alignment having a paladine as the Unearthed Arcana discribes.
I do not like the idea of LG paladine of Sune, not a good idea. CG paladines are the way to go there. |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 08:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinnin
Hey Guys
Just a question, ive had it come up a few times with other party memebers. Do paladins need to be good? They Worship a specific diety so if its a LE one then that should still work right? Thats my arguemnt, the other people say that they have to be LG
It depends on which edition of D&D you're playing.
Ed's 1 & 2 clearly stated [except for those that worship Sune in FR] that Paladins MUST be Lawful Good.
In 3e & 3.5 the alignment requirements relaxed a little bit.
As for 4e, I don't know as I don't play that system
Ultimately what it comes down to is what the DM of your campaign decides is the ruling. The rule books are there to give you a framework in which you can play a game: you don't have to follow them to the letter if you so choose. Numerous campaigns have "house rules" as DM's & players alter the rules so as to make the game experience more fun for them.
The only limits are what your imagination and creativity can come up with ;)
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Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 00:35:32
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A paladin is per difinition a holy warrior, and since the term "holy" is per difinition "good", then per difinition a paladin is a holy, good warrior of good church!!!
If you want an evil version of a paladin well then Black Guard or Fallen Paladin is the choise for you.
But having a neutral or evil paladin is per difinition NOT possible!!! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 16 Jun 2010 00:40:25 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 01:10:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
A paladin is per difinition a holy warrior, and since the term "holy" is per difinition "good", then per difinition a paladin is a holy, good warrior of good church!!!
This stance does, however, allow for the possibility of CG or NG paladins.
However...
Holy is generally accepted to mean good, particularly in D&D. That is not the dictionary definition, though. From dictionary.com:
quote:
1. specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated: holy ground.
2. dedicated or devoted to the service of god, the church, or religion: a holy man.
Therefore...
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But having a neutral or evil paladin is per difinition NOT possible!!!
By defining a paladin as a holy warrior, a neutral or evil paladin is by definition possible.
Granted, I do -- as I've stated before -- feel that only LG types should be called paladin, and others should get another title. But I also think that if we play the dictionary card, we need to make sure we're using the word correctly. |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 01:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Just what Sian said.
However, in 3.5, not counting any alt rules, Paladins can worship Sune. One of the few gods that allow that.
As a divine caster, Paladins need to worship patron deity. Seeing as Paladins need to be LG by class, that only leaves NG, LG, LN gods. However, like I said above, Sune allows them in her fold.
Unless I am wrong, Sune's paladins could also be CG as well.
John |
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Edited by - froglegg on 16 Jun 2010 01:11:38 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 02:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Just what Sian said.
However, in 3.5, not counting any alt rules, Paladins can worship Sune. One of the few gods that allow that.
As a divine caster, Paladins need to worship patron deity. Seeing as Paladins need to be LG by class, that only leaves NG, LG, LN gods. However, like I said above, Sune allows them in her fold.
Unless I am wrong, Sune's paladins could also be CG as well.
John
I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding of this, actually. The way I think it is, Sune is the only CG deity that allows paladins, who are LG. She is the exception to the one-step rule. I guess she figures she's cute enough to get away with it, and no one will complain.  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 12:26:20
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As long as anything is called "Holy" then it is not possible to be anything but "good". One could ofc have an unholy warrior with the same abilities as a paladin but it would then not be a paladin.
If one is holy and evil its called UN-holy. So...
If a Paladin is a "Holy" man/warrior/dude... then he can only and I repeat ONLY be of good allignment!!!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 12:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
As long as anything is called "Holy" then it is not possible to be anything but "good". One could ofc have an unholy warrior with the same abilities as a paladin but it would then not be a paladin.
If one is holy and evil its called UN-holy. So...
If a Paladin is a "Holy" man/warrior/dude... then he can only and I repeat ONLY be of good allignment!!!
The dictionary does not agree with you, at least with regards to the definition of holy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jun 2010 12:59:26 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 13:37:06
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What does it say about holy then?
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Paladins
