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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 17:25:56
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Hmmmm...Manshoon is kinda old...
I wonder how many children he might have? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 18:01:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I am sorry but when you knew how to swing a sword your not likely to forget it, i would say it is similar to swimming.
Actually, if you don't regularly train and practice skills like that, they do tend to degrade over time. Muscle memory fades, reflexes dull. In boxing and wrestling it's called ring rust, or just the common saying "getting rusty" at something. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 18:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I am sorry but when you knew how to swing a sword your not likely to forget it, i would say it is similar to swimming.
Actually, if you don't regularly train and practice skills like that, they do tend to degrade over time. Muscle memory fades, reflexes dull. In boxing and wrestling it's called ring rust, or just the common saying "getting rusty" at something.
Not too mention the fact that if he's not regularly swinging around a hunk of steel, his strength will fade. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 18:32:43
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| And to bring the mechanic issue, only the 3rd edition has a decent multiclass system when 2 or many classes are not evenly split. This could explain why it was simpler to simply ignore these levels if they were not relevant to the style of the character. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:29:09
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In 1st and 2nd he could simply have been listed as a fighter x / wizard x.
Reading what I have (as for his birthdate, coupled with when he started using magic) I think he would have been about a Fighter 5 when he finally started studying magic...just my personal opinion.
It would be one thing to say that a man would get rusty; and like Elminster living a thousand years may have forgotten more than most people will ever know...but Manshoon is just over a hundred years old...so he wouldn't have forgotten everything. Perhaps a decrease in his ability sure (even a loss of Hit Points from lack of physical activity perhaps...even though he is continually young)...but he should still know how to use a blade.
My players should now beware...
Well...maybe not since I rarely allow Manshoon to even be approached. He is usually the one to force a "meeting" after all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:35:40
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In 3rd edition, every character I created started as a fighter, no matter what I went on to be. Of course, this is more of a 'rules thing' then an roleplay thing, but seriously, if you want to see level 2, take fighter at level 1. It not only gives you more HP, it grants you abilities you can use throughout the game when your other (class) abilities aren't available for some reason (like when you run out of spells).
I don't see how anyone survived being a level 1 wizard in earlier editions; "You trip and fall... and you die from a stubbed toe. Roll another character." Thats why in those editions I started everyone at level 3. From an RP point of view, the same thing should apply - how can you 'go adventuring' when you can't even lift a sword? Half the time during a fight, Elminster falls back on non-magical tactics to get an edge (like throwing sand in an opponent's face). How can a mage live very long if they don't even learn the basics about strategy and tactics? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2012 19:38:50 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 21:21:52
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| Well, you don't need fighter training to lift a sword or throw sand, but I get your point. As for being fighter x / mage x, wouldn't that be really silly if Manshoon had as many levels in fighter that in wizard? Or maybe you meant fighter x / mage y, which makes much more sense in this case, and I didn't know you could do that in 1rst and 2nd edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 21:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Or maybe you meant fighter x / mage y, which makes much more sense in this case, and I didn't know you could do that in 1rst and 2nd edition.
I don't know about 1E, but in 2E, it was possible to do what was called "dual classing". It was an option only available to humans, who were not able to multiclass.
To dual class, you had to have a certain number of levels in your original class, and you had to have some really good ability scores. Once you reached that level, you could take a new class. If you used any of the abilities of your former class, you only got half experience for the encounter. Once your new level was higher than your old level, then you could use the abilities from the first class, subject only to the restrictions of the new class.
To use one of my own NPCs as an example, he was a 23rd level wizard and 9th level fighter. He was a 9th level fighter first. He abandoned that class and became a wizard. Until he became a 10th level wizard, he couldn't use any of his fighter abilities, or he'd take that XP hit. Once he was W10/F9, he could then use all of his fighter abilities without restriction, other than the usual can't-have-a-wizard-in-armor gig.
Oh, and when you did the dual-class thing, you could no longer gain any XP in the original class. So my W23/F9 could pick up a sword and cut his way thru an entire orc horde, and he'd not get anything out of the deal. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 23:46:41
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Yeah you could do that in Baldur's Gate 2, I always thought that this system made absolutely no sense. An X level fighter could forget everything one day to the next because he started arcane training, only to remember all at once once his wizardry was high enough...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 04:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I am sorry but when you knew how to swing a sword your not likely to forget it, i would say it is similar to swimming.
Sword fighting requires a great deal more skill and mental/physical acclimation and operation than one would also require when just casually swimming [which I'm assuming is the basis of your comparison here].
Most everyone who has had basic training in swimming can easily jump into a pool or into a river/ocean and start swimming. On the other hand, picking up a sword and learning to hold your own in a duel or close-quarters combat isn't something you can just easily handle in the same way.
And let's remember, also, that we're talking about an NPC shifting one's mental and martial focus from a heavily physical activity to an activity that is almost entirely the province of the mind. That would also require an entirely new skill-set which specifically concentrates on developing one's abilities for a new and different form of combat. Which will, usually, mean that other skills, like physical combat training, are often neglected in favour of mastering the Art. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 10:23:13
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I see your point Sage, though i have to say that if he had training he would still remember how to swing a sword, does not necessarily mean he can hold his own against a seasoned swordfighter, which was actually my point i tried to make.
Of course we could debate if his cloning did effect his memories of combat training and i could see that he may have forgotten some of the more "advanced" training he recieved in favor of his magical prowess when he cloned his images, but he would still possess the knowledge how a fighter works and he definatly would use the knowledge to his advantage in preparation of possible confrontations with swordfighters. I simply dislike removing a "class" when the knowledge that has been aquired through the class is still present. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 22:10:32
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As far as the idea that the "REAL MANSHOON" was out there, I thought Cloak and Dagger said that the clones activated when the Manshoon (the current one) was killed by Fzoul.
I don't think the Manshoon clones all activating was because of the Vampire Manshoon - only because that clone would not have been the next in line. As 18th level, he was clearly an earlier clone than "Manshoon Prime."
Manshoon could not have been making stasis clones for very long, since its a 9th level spell and he has not been 18th level for more than a decade or so.
I always assumed that the clones activating was the result of something Elminster did. When I read it my brain immediately when to the scene where he taunts Manshoon with the knowledge that he has done something fatal to a clone or two and if he dies it might be permanent.
I do think that there are now numerous Manshoons left in the realms. The Manshoons were all highly intelligent and would come to the conclusion very quickly that they needed to find a way to rid themselves of their clone impulses. Why seek refuge with Halaster or the Simbul if you're not looking to make a magical change to yourself (BOTH of them had done a lot of work with permanency and spells on themselves and would be invaluable resources in that regard).
In my own little version of things, Manshoon Prime becomes the ultimate manipulator. He spends his time CONTROLLING the Manshoon Wars. Getting this clone to attack that clone, then swooping in to reap the rewards. I'd argue several of the timeline entries in Cloak & Dagger point to this. Two or more Manshoons go to war with each other, then another comes in once the dust settles. I even had the idea that he might have manipulated his way into the office of Magister thinking, he already has to hide from an army of archmages, so there's no downside to it. Talatha's no magical slouch, but she could not defeat 3 Manshoons at once, with a 4th waiting in the wings to claim the prize.
Ok - I think that is enough rambling for one threads :) |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I think that totally blows.
I believe a clone or three are out there somewhere...
If I was an early Manshoon clone I'd take one look to see what year it is. Realise that I've been asleep for a long time. Realise that someone has hunted down and killed every clone between the current year one and me (there'd be at least 1 for every 2 years). I'd find a new hidey hole and would then put myself into stasis for another 100-1000 years, hoping that whatever is hunting down Manshoons is dead by the time I wake up again.
I'd also be wrong (no-one has systematically hunted down each Manshoon clone. All of the clones have simply been awakened at once). But that doesn't invalidate the precautions I've taken.
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DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 11:55:55
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| I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 12:48:28
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul.
Fzoul will be dead and forgotten long before Manshoon. Fzoul plays the short game - Manshoon has the patience to understand their long term goals cannot be seized and held indefinitely. Fzoul's power is a token from his god, who already knows his loyalties are worthless. He is a tool, nothing more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 12:57:23
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I'm gonna have to agree with Swifty on this one. I loved Manshoon when I first read about him. Post-clonewar I wouldn't even consider using him.
On the other hand, I originally didn't like Fzoul, but since Blackstaff I found there is more to his personality then simply being an 'ebil mustache-twirler' (and sadly, it was probably just art of him that made me feel that way).
Now he's cool, despite the Turkish strong-man 'stache. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2013 16:02:37 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.
As a DM I see endless possibilities with Manshoon and his clones, whether active or asleep. The Manshoon Wars is perhaps the greatest plot hook/game inspiration to come out of the 2E Realms
I also love the concept that Ed created of how to keep one the home Realms bad guys alive despite the old TSR Code of Ethics that didn't allow evil to 'win' or even survive. As a player of games and tinkerer of rules Stasis Clone is an awesomely clever and yet very simple spell.
More Manshoon I say, more more more!! 
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.
As a DM I see endless possibilities with Manshoon and his clones, whether active or asleep. The Manshoon Wars is perhaps the greatest plot hook/game inspiration to come out of the 2E Realms
I concur. I think the Manshoon Wars were one of the best ideas from 2E, and it still bugs me that 3E dropped the ball by not running with that one.
I never paid attention to Manshoon until there were 40 of him! |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 15:26:52
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| I actually like Manshoon. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 02:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I actually like Manshoon.
I've largely been a fan of Manshoon since the early 2e period. I just loved all the little Zhentarim/Black Network tidbits that were peppered in the 2e boxed set. I could easily imagine Manshoon sitting back with steepled fingers and smiling at a map of his "dominion." |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 23:59:38
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Manshoon has always been a favorite of mine...my first long term Forgotten Realms campaign had him manipulating more things behind the scenes than I could keep track of without a thick notebook!
In fact, an alternate identity of Manshoon was actually the magical instructor for the party wizard! They just never realized it until REAL years later...and in the end, Manshoon got exactly what he wanted from the party of "good guys" by getting them to kill an enemy Manshoon did not want to go against personally in a frontal attack, ended up with the party wizard/thief actually joining the Black Network "to better keep an eye on them" for the group, helping Manshoon to find NUMEROUS magical items he was able to acquire from the party by either buying them or getting them another way, and much more.
In short, Manshoon is the perfect Moriarty for me! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 31 Jan 2013 00:03:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 00:16:47
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| It seems everybody likes Manshoon. Or at least likes something about Manshoon. Except Dennis, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alenis
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 10:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
I know its all fantasy and should'nt be taken too seriously but the whole manshoon clones and the current storyline round him just comes across to me as rather silly.I would have preferred him to be just a straight down the line bad ass wizard and go out in spectacular fashion after a war with fzoul.
Fzoul will be dead and forgotten long before Manshoon. Fzoul plays the short game - Manshoon has the patience to understand their long term goals cannot be seized and held indefinitely. Fzoul's power is a token from his god, who already knows his loyalties are worthless. He is a tool, nothing more.
Well, I agree that Fzoul was somewhat lacking in comparison to Manshoon in regards to his overall scary leadership, behind the scenes manipulation, and so on. But stating that Fzoul will be forgotten long before Manshoon; I mean, mate, Fzouls a demigod now. Admittedly, the demigod of service to evil, so, yeah, I guess he is a tool. But a godly one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:47:49
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| Here's a question: why is it that everyone seems to assume that post Manshoon Wars, the Manshoons stopped using the Stasis Clone spell? Once it got down to just a few of them, I'd assume they'd each be inclined to return to the practice of cloning. (I'm not sure this would be possible for vampshoon - idk if you can clone undead). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 19:20:49
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The stasis clone spell description specifies living creatures and excludes undead/unliving creatures.
I thought that subsequent lore already established some (if not most) cloneshoons were using this spell again? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 20:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The stasis clone spell description specifies living creatures and excludes undead/unliving creatures.
I thought that subsequent lore already established some (if not most) cloneshoons were using this spell again?
Given a century to work on it and given the apparent revelation about Manshoon in the final few pages of Elminster Enraged, I wouldn't completely rule out Vampshoon making clones of some kind. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 21:45:51
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I've just been looking through various modern products (3rd/4th ed) and they all present the deaths of Manshoons, the Zhentil Keep Manshoon killed by the Shadovar for example, as permanent.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 22:04:37
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I think its like this* - there is a 'virus' in the spell-code.
Just like computer apps, they need to run with a specific set of parameters laid-down, and somehow the vamp-shoon 'broke the program'. Its stuck in a loop (that it can't resolve). What that means is any clones created (while there is still more then one) will cause the clone to instantly wakeup and try to kill the guy who just created it.
So it needs a 'cold reboot'. When the very last Manshoon clone dies (which may be just limited to the Prime Plane or even just Realmspace) the program has come to a close, and 'normal cloning' may once-again commence.
Obviously the vamp clone doesn't count (because he's the one that broke it in the first place), so it is still possible to leave a few lying around (so long as the original spell was unable to detect them at the time of 'the last Manshoon's death). Another assumption I would make is that any form of stasis will fulfill the requirements, since we know more then one clone has always been in stasis (since Manshoon created the spell). So if someone (including one of the clones) could get all the other clones into stasis somehow, it resets (and then those clones can be reactivated at a later date).
So long as the spell is stuck in a 'wakeup clone' loop, Manshoon can't use the spell (without immediately fighting another copy). The magic has to come to an end completely before it can be turned back on (like a comp. virus that keeps opening browser windows).
*As in - "my own solution" as to why he isn't making any more copies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2013 22:08:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 23:36:44
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TMM - I meant non-permanent in the sense that although Manshoons can be killed, and each may die a permanent death, there is always another Manshoon somewhere else, and always the possibility that even more Manshoons may rise anywhere at any time.
Manshoon as a character cannot be "permanently" killed because his individual selves are a self-replicating distributed presence, something like virus spores or cancerous colonies. Unless you systematically kill every single Manshoon and remain ever vigilant against signs of malignant Manshoon regression, there is always the risk of more Manshoon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 01:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I've just been looking through various modern products (3rd/4th ed) and they all present the deaths of Manshoons, the Zhentil Keep Manshoon killed by the Shadovar for example, as permanent.
And there are probably other undocumented deaths of Manshoon clones that we know nothing about... since Ed has, on various occasions, intimated that there are a great many more clones running around in the Realms than those referenced in the Realmslore. |
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Manshoon Questions
