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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 17:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Stasis Clones wouldn't activate across planar boundaries. A fair and logical ruling which I find agreeable.
Of course you could stretch the game mechanic and be nitpicky and ask ... how does the spell "know" when to activate a clone? Does it work by sensing the original dying, or by not sensing the original still lives? If the latter, then clones might be simultaneously be active in many planes, just unable to share them.
I'm more inclined to think (as you do) that any/all Manshoons still skulking about were originally "activated" in Faerūn. Though I'm still willing to suggest that some may have been lost to the "other" Realmsworld. And any number of inactive Manshoon clones could remain undiscovered all over the place, including an extraplanar stash or two ... some of these might be long forgotten (after the untimely death of whichever Manshoon created them) and barely sufficient level to cast the Stasis Clone spell, they might have a very outdated understanding of "recent" events.
When did Manshoon first research and use the Stasis Clone spell?
I don't know that it's ever been mentioned when he first used that spell...
It's not unreasonable to assume that after the Manshoon Wars, more clones were created, which could have wound up on Abeir. I don't think, however, that there were any unactivated ones remaining from the time of the Manshoon Wars.
As to how the spell knows to activate the next clone... I'm thinking it doesn't. What happens is that Manshoon #417 is killed, his soul disconnects from that body, and then simply travels to the nearest prepared vessel. When the soul arrives, it activates that clone, which becomes Manshoon #418.
My personal theory on what caused the Manshoon Wars is that when the existing clone died, the presence of an undead clone in the mix caused Manshoon's soul to either duplicate or fragment, and all the copies/fragments then hightailed it to the nearest unoccupied clone. It was basically a race -- two shards (if you will) headed towards clone #17, one got to it first, so the other then headed to clone #28, which was about 100 miles away, and so on. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 17:41:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not unreasonable to assume that after the Manshoon Wars, more clones were created, which could have wound up on Abeir.
He probably would have. Ed has said in the past that Manshoon liked to add new clones from time to time.
quote:
As to how the spell knows to activate the next clone... I'm thinking it doesn't. What happens is that Manshoon #417 is killed, his soul disconnects from that body, and then simply travels to the nearest prepared vessel. When the soul arrives, it activates that clone, which becomes Manshoon #418.
Indeed. Several scenes in Ed's novels detail the "awakening" of Manshoon's clones, which normally occurred only when the "previous" Manshoon died.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 18:57:24
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I like that theory about the Vampiric Manshoon warping the magic. 
As distasteful as some of you may find this theory, perhaps it was caused by the dichotomy between shadow/Arcane magic? If the clone stasis spell uses the Weave (which it should), and vampirism accesses Umbral energy to empower it, then the mixture of the two incompatible magics may have caused the hiccup.
And as for clones winding up on Abeir, that's easy - he could have had one stashed in Maztica, or in the Old Empires (or even Nimbral, if that wound-up in Abeir). Any that were in a place that was transposed would be on Abeir now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 19:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like that theory about the Vampiric Manshoon warping the magic.
As distasteful as some of you may find this theory, perhaps it was caused by the dichotomy between shadow/Arcane magic? If the clone stasis spell uses the Weave (which it should), and vampirism accesses Umbral energy to empower it, then the mixture of the two incompatible magics may have caused the hiccup.
And as for clones winding up on Abeir, that's easy - he could have had one stashed in Maztica, or in the Old Empires (or even Nimbral, if that wound-up in Abeir). Any that were in a place that was transposed would be on Abeir now.
I don't think we need to bring conflicting magics into it... The stasis clone spell was to cheat death by having a receptacle available for the soul. Vampshoon threw it off simply by being undead. It wasn't conflicting magic types, it was the conflict of a clone that was a potential receptacle (in that it could be animated by his soul), but was no longer alive.
So not as much the wrong magic, as the wrong kind of animating energy.
At least, that's my opinion. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 19:58:35
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Heh. Manshoon of the Month Club. Heh.
All I can think of now is Manshoon in a bath towel saying, "Hello ladies. Look at your Manshoon. Now look at me. Now look at your Manshoon, and back to me."
Silly Old Spice ad has gone viral into my brain. Yup, "Smell like a Manshoon" is going to stick with me for a while, so I thought I'd share. 
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 22:45:19
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Vampshoon. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 02:20:31
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Heh. It's worse than that for me, Steven. I'm seeing Grover (as in the Muppet, as in the viral spoof of the Old Spice ad) in that bath towel, croaking, "Hel-LO, ladies! Look at your Manshoon. Now look at me . . ."
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 04:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Vampshoon.
Yeah, I was proud of that one, meself! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 04:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Vampshoon.
Yeah, I was proud of that one, meself!
I didn't see this earlier, but I canonising it for my Realms.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 06:52:41
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The Ruins Zhentil Keep box set (written post-1368DR) explains
- Manshoon has been killed many times, but is always "reborn" through the use of Stasis Clone and Contingency spells. He has even used this spell to remain young; as he ages, he updates his Stasis Clone, gets himself slain in a reckless attack which destroys a powerful enemy, and returns as a physically younger clone.
- Fzoul has attempted (and failed) to wipe out all of Manshoon's clones "many times in the past".
- Manshoon's personal black dragon, Orlgaun, was slain in 1356DR and replaced with a magical clone.
- One reason that Manshoon has not advanced to a higher wizard level is the cumulative loss of a great deal of experience because of the lag between newly activated clones that had not been recently updated by their previous (now deceased) Manshoon incarnations. This is especially true during (Fzoul's) attempts to purge all clones, which usually fails to discover very old clones whose existence even Manshoon (himself a clone who may have been imperfectly updated) is sometimes unaware of.
As Manshoon (not Vampshoon) was born 1229DR and is apparently in his mid-40s (I'm guessing) ... he may have devised the Stasis Clone spell as early as circa 1274DR. That is, there may be Manshoons whose knowledge is (initially) over a century obsolete. Unless somebody has more accurate dates/lore? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 09:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
- One reason that Manshoon has not advanced to a higher wizard level is the cumulative loss of a great deal of experience because of the lag between newly activated clones that had not been recently updated by their previous (now deceased) Manshoon incarnations. This is especially true during (Fzoul's) attempts to purge all clones, which usually fails to discover very old clones whose existence even Manshoon (himself a clone who may have been imperfectly updated) is sometimes unaware of.
Ed tells us that:- "The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him)."
quote:
As Manshoon (not Vampshoon) was born 1229DR and is apparently in his mid-40s (I'm guessing) ... he may have devised the Stasis Clone spell as early as circa 1274DR. That is, there may be Manshoons whose knowledge is (initially) over a century obsolete. Unless somebody has more accurate dates/lore?
Well, considering what Ed said in the tidbit I just quoted above, I suspect there are several Manshoon clones that have long been hidden away [and perhaps forgotten]. Either way, I'd assume only Ed could answer this to any specific degree, since the Manshoon "Clone Wars" has now largely been relegated to an uncertain future in terms of further exploration. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 12:51:55
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Manshoon's stats, as given
- In 1e (circa 1356DR) the FR0 Campaign (box) set: DM's Sourcebook of the Realms and FR7: Manshoon is but a lowly 16th level Magic-User. The 9th level spell Stasis Clone is not listed in his spellbook (nor are Contingency or Clone) and he's technically incapable of casting it anyhow. His inability to stay dead is explained as really being the result of his extremely careful foresight and clever contingency planning, his pure genius at using and betraying his pawns, inspired lies and deception, scheming paranoia, pessimism, cowardice, and generally admirable cockroach tendencies.
- His 2e (post-ToT 1358DR) debut in FRA briefly lists his stats as "W(now)19", unchanged in the (circa 1367DR) revised FR Campaign Setting: A Grand Tour of the Realms.
- The 2e (circa 1368DR) Villain's Lorebook lists Stasis Clone in his spellbook and also states "Manshoon is over 100 years old, but maintains his youth with potions of longevity and other magicks". The (post-1368DR) Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set offers much the same information.
- Online wiki sources suggest that Manshoon (Vampshoon?) has managed to achieve "Wizard 23, Archmage 2" in 3e/4e.
I'm personally biased towards a little retcon bump of Manshoon's earliest (too wimpy) reported levels, otherwise the Stasis Clone spell would've been developed too recently to really be interesting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 13:01:38 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 21:53:56
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I still have the original Manshoon hiding in the same place as
the demiplane that "Tears so White" took place in. With dozens
and dozens more clones just waiting to be planted and waiting
for the right time to step on Fzoul.
The only problem I have is coming up with a logical reason
why Hesperdan used Fzoul to put Manshoon in the backround.
Wait, could Hesperdan BE the original Manshoon? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 22:15:03
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Well, we all know Ed's reliably vague about Hesperdan's past, much as he hints towards Hesperdan's exciting future. He could be a Cloneshoon. They say he could even be Elminster. Both seem extremely unlikely.
It's hard to say if Hesperdan's one of Fzoul's agents or not. He could just as easily be a doppleganger from Westgate, Calaunt, Elversult (Cult of the Dragon?), or Scornubel (Shade?) ... opposed to Manshoon, but not necessarily allied with Fzoul. Maybe opposed to Fzoul but forced to compromise between evils. And wherever Fzoul goes (taking the Zhents and Cyric with him) the powerful agents of Mask, Bane, and all the rest of those tagalongs religiously follow. Maybe Hesperdan's a spy/agent for Kelemvor, Thay, or even the meddling Harpers for all I know. Or just a random little nobody who fluked while staying alive. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Oct 2010 22:24:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 01:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I still have the original Manshoon hiding in the same place as
the demiplane that "Tears so White" took place in. With dozens
and dozens more clones just waiting to be planted and waiting
for the right time to step on Fzoul.
The only problem I have is coming up with a logical reason
why Hesperdan used Fzoul to put Manshoon in the backround.
Wait, could Hesperdan BE the original Manshoon?
Heh. Jokingly, this could be why Hesperdan basically allowed Manshoon [and now Fzoul] to be the head honcho of the organisation. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 02:22:13
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Well, maybe not so jokingly. What better for an organization leader
of an evil organization to do than to give all the backstabbers a
different target than himself.
Maybe he uses the clones as "extensions" of himself to
ease the Network in the direction he wants.
Boy, there needs to be more Hesperdan writings to analyze before
any good theory can really be accepted. |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 05:52:07
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In a funny aside, my D&D group was starting a new low-level FR game when Cloak & Dagger originally came out. I used the Manshoon Wars as an excuse to play as a clone of Manshoon, since one of the tidbits in C&D had Vangerdahast discovering the corpse of one of the clones and being shocked as the clone looked much younger than the Mage Royal had ever seen Manshoon looking.
So my character's backstory was that he was a Manshoon clone who, due to the mysterious magical chaos surrounding the clones, was de-aged (to about 18 years old) and had all of his memories of his prior life erased. We played for a brief time, when we ended, I was happy to know that there was a Neutral Good 4th-level wizard clone of Manshoon running around in the Realms. ;) |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 03:44:53
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I've been researching the Clone spell, reading many old scrolls (including Stasis clones and Adjudicating the "Clone" Spell - 2e).
My question doesn't specifically deal with the "soul" aspects discussed before. What I'm interested in knowing is exactly how precise are the cloned copies? It seems to be assumed that they're absolutely perfect copies (well, aside from losing 1 point of Con). But I wonder if they might have minor differences in memories, attitude, personality ... somewhat like Simulucra perhaps.
Would the Cloneshoons all be absolutely identical (insofar as their "updates" allow) or would each have minor individual quirks? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 03:56:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I've been researching the Clone spell, reading many old scrolls (including Stasis clones and Adjudicating the "Clone" Spell - 2e).
My question doesn't specifically deal with the "soul" aspects discussed before. What I'm interested in knowing is exactly how precise are the cloned copies? It seems to be assumed that they're absolutely perfect copies (well, aside from losing 1 point of Con). But I wonder if they might have minor differences in memories, attitude, personality ... somewhat like Simulucra perhaps.
Would the Cloneshoons all be absolutely identical (insofar as their "updates" allow) or would each have minor individual quirks?
The spell description said the clone was "identical to the original being in memories, skills, experience level, and appearance at the time the organic tissue was obtained from the being." So I'd say that each clone would have the personality and attitude they were last updated with. People change, over time, and so an older clone might have a different attitude about certain things than a later clone.
Now, once we had a gazillion Manshoons running around, they each would start with the personality of their last update, but their experiences would make each develop in different ways. It's entirely likely that two clones, updated on the same date and thus starting off the same, could have different enough later experiences to wind up with wildly different personalities. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 13:48:24
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The description also states that the clone is a "fresh" copy, undamaged, without physical scarring and injury, etc.
Can insanity* transfer into the clone? What about magical conditions like possessions, Charm, Geas? (What if these conditions exist at the time Stasis Clone is cast or the clone is most recently "updated"?)
Final question: is the physical/mental age of the clone, upon activation, the same as the age of the "original" during the most recent update? What if the original's age has been altered before the update (Elixir of Youth, golden apples, bad run in with ghosts, too many Haste spells)?
(I realize some of these details aren't explicitly specified, thus the DM's problem. What would your rulings be?)
* Meaning insanity as a temporary and curable affliction. Not the sort of insanity which is Manshoon's normal state of mind. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2010 13:49:14 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 14:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The description also states that the clone is a "fresh" copy, undamaged, without physical scarring and injury, etc.
Can insanity* transfer into the clone? What about magical conditions like possessions, Charm, Geas? (What if these conditions exist at the time Stasis Clone is cast or the clone is most recently "updated"?)
Final question: is the physical/mental age of the clone, upon activation, the same as the age of the "original" during the most recent update? What if the original's age has been altered before the update (Elixir of Youth, golden apples, bad run in with ghosts, too many Haste spells)?
(I realize some of these details aren't explicitly specified, thus the DM's problem. What would your rulings be?)
OK, my rulings then.
My take on it would be that permanent physical / physiological effects, even if caused by magic or supernatural effects would be transferred. THe clone would have the same physical age as the original at the time of creation, regardless of whether the physical cage is due to ordinary attrition, magic or other supernatural effects.
Re: the insanity - if it were actual permanent insanity (as in: "state of mind"), even if caused by magic, it would be transferred (part of the personality). Any insanity that lasts only as long as the spell that causes it (e.g., feeblemind) would not be transferred. Same for mind-controlling spells. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 15:22:39
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I agree with all of the above.
The copy is an exact duplicate of the person at the time the spell is cast, so all properties will transfer.
Permanent conditions, even if caused by magic, transfer, as Thauramarth states. I would also like to add that if the person is under a temporary condition (shape change) that will also transfer and last the same duration as the duration left on the affect at the time the clone spell is cast, but the cost of THAT spell must be added in (in other words, the caster must burn the appropriate spell-slot). If the caster cannot do this, then he/she must wait until the duration of the first spell is over to cast clone (otherwise it will fail, perhaps in an unexpected way). If the secondary effect was cast by someone else, then that person could pay the cost of the effect-duplication (and be WILLING to do so).
That last bit I added-in because it gives the DM a handy tool to surprise folks. It will almost never come up, but a smart 'baddie' may have turned himself into something horrid at the time of the cloning, just to make sure he/she is able to survive upon awakening (in case of something unforeseen, which is likely if your clone activates).
Or conversely, the caster may have made sure his clone could get away. The party may see what appears to be a stuffed Raven in the corner of the Wizard's lab (typical decoration for such a place), and when they kill the Mage the clone spell activates, the Raven wakes up, and flies away (leaving the party shaking their heads over that one).
I always like to add a little of the unexpected into the mix.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2010 16:12:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 16:37:47
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Ah, I'm curious because I have a (clever) mid-level player who's submitted her Wish ... she wants to have a Stasis Clone. (The spell is unique to Manshoon and he guards it jealously, but it is known by name, and it's effects are generally understood by sages and mages who study such things. At least in my campaign it is.)
I don't see any particular problem with granting such a "backup". Storing and hiding it (or having it stolen) makes the player very easily hooked along, especially since a clone is such a very personal thing. In my mind it's just a big anchor which could even be more trouble than it's worth (if necessary). Assuming I choose to interpret the Wish this way, of course.
I'm concerned because, as mentioned, this PC is still mid level and will undoubtedly progress over time. I want to know all the implications when the day comes for the clone to awaken. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2010 16:38:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 18:10:36
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Stasis Clone allows the user to 'update' the clone periodically with newer memories. For a Mage this is no problem, since knowledge is part of that update. It has never come up in a game, but I 'might' rule that newer spells be practiced for a number of days = to their level (because physical things like agility are not updated, and the somatic component would have to be worked on).
In the case of more physical classes I would have to really think about this, but fortunately it is a unique spell and nearly all martial classes would never have an opportunity to use it. A fighter may get the benefit of his experience, but would his sword-arm remember the new Feat he learned? About half of a physical feat is learned at the muscular level.
'Losing your clone' sounds like a really fun scenario to play out. I'm just picturing your player coming home and finding her clone missing, and trying to track the damn thing down. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 18:56:33
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quote:
Markustay:
I'm just picturing your player coming home and finding her clone missing, and trying to track the damn thing down.
It can get much worse. The clone could be taken by a villain who might try to somehow activate/awaken it to use against the PC (even if just to drive both copies insane). The defenseless clone might be subject to all sorts of magical or physical constraints which would take effect upon awakening. It might even be somehow "interrogated" through magical/mental means. Simulucra (or other clones) could be fashioned from it. It might even serve as a useful prop, habeas corpus, to "prove" beyond all doubt that the PC is dead to important people. Or "murdered" and placed at the scene of the crime after an assassination attempt on King Azoun. It might be offered/sacrificed to some dark power who would subsequently view the soul as his property as well. No player likes to envision the humiliation and abuse their copy might suffer at the hands of depraved individuals.
In short, it could bring all kinds of bad news. Assuming I grant the Wish. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2010 18:59:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 04:58:07
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Check Bonewits Authentic Thaumaturgy - the Laws of Association and Similarity in particular.
If a qualified Thaumaturgist gets its hands on the clone, it can do some really bad things to the original.
Think 'Voodoo Doll', but on a whole 'nother level. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 05:24:37
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Another occult Crowley/Disraeli ripoff, eh?
Well, taking a backstep towards OT, the point is not so much what might happen to the clone itself but what might happen when it awakens. Manshoon is unliving proof that this spell (so far) has a 100% failure rate. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 02:44:39
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| A serious question I have about Manshoon: why in the hell doesn't he have fighter levels or something? Everything I have heard about his early life states that he started as a swordsman before learning magic! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 04:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A serious question I have about Manshoon: why in the hell doesn't he have fighter levels or something? Everything I have heard about his early life states that he started as a swordsman before learning magic!
Perhaps, because, like Elminster, many of the skills he's learnt, through the long decades[century/ies?] of his life, aren't aspects of his character that he can directly call upon any more.
I remember the 2e Heroes' Lorebook saying that Elminster "had previously been a fighter, a thief, and a priestess long before he learned the Art. But that all the skills he had picked up in those classes had unfortunately been neglected over the years and were thus, no longer available to him."
So maybe it's the same for Manshoon as well. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 08:49:25
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| I am sorry but when you knew how to swing a sword your not likely to forget it, i would say it is similar to swimming. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Manshoon Questions
