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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2010 : 03:11:16
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http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Manshoon
Ok so there is just one Manshoon left - the Vampire clone or would it be two including the original Manshoon? Also why haven't we seen more of this guy?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 04:24:58
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| Only the Manshoon clone, as Orbakh the Night King, remains in the 4e Realms. The clone with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague, and the third remaining clone was killed during the Netherese assault on Zhentil Keep. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 05:46:11
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I think that totally blows.
I believe a clone or three are out there somewhere... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 06:26:48
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So what happened to the original Manshoon in 4E? But yeah, I tend to agree with Brimstone on that.
Edit: Found my answer in the link on this page. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 May 2010 19:43:43 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 16:18:55
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In my 4e Realms there are some clones left who are hiding and in disguise. One of them has changed gender  |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 16:41:30
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I had always supposed that at least one (and likely more) of the clones had migrated into Realmspace or beyond, not to mention those that likely took flight to other planes. I giggle thinking of the clone that made it to Oerth and ran into anotherKhelben there. I bet that you could hear the 'Nooooooooooooo' all the way in Waterdeep.
Also, wasn't there a clone living in Candlekeep? And another living under the protection of the Simbul? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 17:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Also, wasn't there a clone living in Candlekeep? And another living under the protection of the Simbul?
Officially, I don't believe we've learned anything [I can't recall at the moment] beyond what was revealed in Cloak & Dagger regarding those particular clones of Manshoon. All we've been told is that a Manshoon clone spent some time with the Simbul, and that he's not there now [as of 3e]. And while I'm hoping Ed may indeed have more... it's likely this little tidbit is indeed safely looked away behind an NDA. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 May 2010 17:14:40 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 18:53:43
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Heh. NDA'd indeed, with just this tease: the Ed story in REALMS OF THE DEAD isn't the last we've seen of Manshoon (Ed tells me). So far as he knows, the vampire Manshoon is the last clone left IN THE REALMS at this time ("this time" being the Year of the Ageless One).
Bwoohahahaha, and so forth...
love,
THO |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 19:40:26
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It makes one wonder... about certain characters other than Manshoon... but I'm still puzzling over that "great secret of the Realms" involving Mystryl's Chosen... I suspect it has something to do with the fact that still-living Chosen of any incarnation of the Lady of Mysteries carry with them a part of the essence of their goddess, likely even after the deity's passing... but I really need to be pointed toward published sources that contain further hints; I have too much Realmslore to go back through it all, particularly with the other projects I've caught myself up in lately.
Can you tell me which of my books I should be re-reading, Ed or THO? If it's a publication to do with the Realms and not a novel, I probably own it, unless it's a 4E DDI article or a Polyhedron article from before the merger with Dungeon. I've not been able to find back issues of Polyhedron at all.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 May 2010 19:48:51 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 19:48:11
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Back on topic: If Manshoon is now a vampire, can he still advance in level? Or is he "frozen" at the level he had attained when he was discovered and drained by Orbakh?
Oh, and the "IN THE REALMS" qualifier surprises me not at all... after all, that was all that was needed to end the Manshoon Wars.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 20:04:00
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I have a feeling he will be showing up in Elminster Must Die.
I could be wrong... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 20:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Back on topic: If Manshoon is now a vampire, can he still advance in level? Or is he "frozen" at the level he had attained when he was discovered and drained by Orbakh?
Oh, and the "IN THE REALMS" qualifier surprises me not at all... after all, that was all that was needed to end the Manshoon Wars.
I've yet to come across anything to suggest that a vampire can't advance in levels, and I can't think how being a vampire would impede arcane research unless it was on the Daylight spell... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 00:58:09
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Can't see what the issue is really as The Real Manshoon can just make more clones of himself?
Perhaps his clones in 4E are no longer clones, but functioning living 'no longer compulsive slayers of each other' wizards and so we don't know about them as they are not gallivanting around proclaiming to be Manshhon?
Just a few thoughts
Cheers
Damian
ps I think Manshoon and the Clone Wars are a brilliant piece of Realmslore and gaming potential - a really brilliant creative piece for DM's to play with |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 01:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. NDA'd indeed, with just this tease: the Ed story in REALMS OF THE DEAD isn't the last we've seen of Manshoon (Ed tells me). So far as he knows, the vampire Manshoon is the last clone left IN THE REALMS at this time ("this time" being the Year of the Ageless One).
Bwoohahahaha, and so forth...
love,
THO
And just in case you all missed the subtle hint from our Good Lady - have bolded it for you 
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 08:26:47
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| As we're on the topic of Manshoon questions: That moronic mask? Is it described in some story why he wears that thing?I've seen him depicted with this mask, especially in 3E, but is it described why and when somewhere? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 08:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
As we're on the topic of Manshoon questions: That moronic mask? Is it described in some story why he wears that thing?I've seen him depicted with this mask, especially in 3E, but is it described why and when somewhere?
It's just artistic license, really. Back in May '04 Ed, in reply to a query about Manshoon's mask in 3e, said:-
quote:
Gerath Hoan, about Manshoon: I of course prefer my original, but the gorget (which of course by its name should be a throat collar, and not any sort of mask) is okay as a distinctive look for ONE of the clones.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 09:15:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
As we're on the topic of Manshoon questions: That moronic mask? Is it described in some story why he wears that thing?I've seen him depicted with this mask, especially in 3E, but is it described why and when somewhere?
It's just artistic license, really. Back in May '04 Ed, in reply to a query about Manshoon's mask in 3e, said:-
quote:
Gerath Hoan, about Manshoon: I of course prefer my original, but the gorget (which of course by its name should be a throat collar, and not any sort of mask) is okay as a distinctive look for ONE of the clones.
Ah cool beans. I thought it would be something like that. I just reread The Knight of Myth Drannor trilogy, in which he had some cameos, and the mask/gorget was never mentioned, so i just had to ask. Thanks Sage. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 21:23:50
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Interesting that crazedadventurers was the only one to mention
the real Manshoon. That's the 1 thing I thought of when
I saw the Hooded ones comments. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 21:39:52
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Interesting that crazedadventurers was the only one to mention
the real Manshoon. That's the 1 thing I thought of when
I saw the Hooded ones comments.
Mm, it seems to me there was a discussion around here a while ago where the possibility of the real Manshoon still being around, and having simply used the Manshoon wars as an excuse to disappear from the "public eye", such as it is. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 21:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Interesting that crazedadventurers was the only one to mention
the real Manshoon. That's the 1 thing I thought of when
I saw the Hooded ones comments.
Mm, it seems to me there was a discussion around here a while ago where the possibility of the real Manshoon still being around, and having simply used the Manshoon wars as an excuse to disappear from the "public eye", such as it is.
I like that theory too... Manshoon sets his clones off at each other's throats, and disappears in the chaos... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 21:57:51
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The link to the original discussion is in the nice blue bold writing in my other post
Gald I could be of service :)
Cheers
Damian
who is not obsessed by Manshoon, no not at all...... |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 19 May 2010 21:58:37 |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 22:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Interesting that crazedadventurers was the only one to mention
the real Manshoon. That's the 1 thing I thought of when
I saw the Hooded ones comments.
Mm, it seems to me there was a discussion around here a while ago where the possibility of the real Manshoon still being around, and having simply used the Manshoon wars as an excuse to disappear from the "public eye", such as it is.
I like that theory too... Manshoon sets his clones off at each other's throats, and disappears in the chaos...
A clever ploy! A diversion, but from what.. hmm |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 23:12:47
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From what... I have a few theories, but I think that's something that's best tailored to the individual DM's campaign... unless there's a big, lore-intensive explanation that can be folded into canon neatly... does anybody have something like that?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 23:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
[quote]I've yet to come across anything to suggest that a vampire can't advance in levels, and I can't think how being a vampire would impede arcane research unless it was on the Daylight spell...
Okay... spellcasting vampires have not been a figure in my 3E games apart from "Return to Castle Ravenloft" and I know that in pre-3E, undead spellcasters can't advance in level beyond what they achieved as living mortals. I know that liches are still bound by this restriction in 3.x, but I wasn't sure about vampires. I'm far more knowledgeable about the Realmslore than about the game mechanics. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 13:57:13
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It looks like this scroll was forgotten, after rolling into a dark corner.
I've read the descriptions of the Clone and Stasis Clone spells ... it seems to me that once the most "recently updated" Manshoons die, there's really no way for any of the remaining Manshoons to know how many others might exist. Or how many others might be active. Although there are some difficulties inherent in being insane these Manshoons are still remarkably tenacious and clever (and scheming) fellows; they'd probably tend to behave much the same way Manshoon behaved his entire life. That is, they'd attempt to remain hidden (and disguised, if necessary) while scouting the land, building a magical arsenal, accumulating as much power as possible, and always ensuring there's some kind of contingency escape plan. A craftier or luckier Manshoon (or three) could conceivably still be alive, perfectly sane (as far as Manshoons go), and completely unaware of his other clones - active or not.
Have there been any confirmed or suspected sitings of an elusive Manshoon in recent times?
[Edit]
Is there any particular reason all Manshoons are necessarily on Toril? Perhaps a few were stashed in various extraplanar locations (even inside a Leomunds Secure Chest?), or the lands of Greyhawk and Krynn, or inadvertently transferred to the other Abier-Toril place (whatever that's called) ... |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Oct 2010 14:00:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 14:31:49
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Jakk, I think what you were saying was only true of the Ravenloft setting, and then only true of Dark Lords (the ones who ruled Domains). In fact, it may have been a specific situation regarding Azalin
I don't recall anything saying a normal Lich couldn't gain levels - Szass Tam certainly became more powerful after his death.
As for it being a 3e rule, I was unaware of that. Kinda stupid rule, don't you think?
Considering every lich is a spelllcaster - why the hell live forever if you can't become more powerful? It makes no sense.
That would be like me becoming an undead carpenter, and then not being able to use tools. There wouldn't be a point.
I like the idea of Manshoon-clones stashed on other worlds. I think Ed once said that Manshoon visited Greyhawk (not positive on that one, I know Vangy did). However, would the ones outside of Realmspace have also activated? They were created with weave-magic, and the contingencies (that 'went wrong') may not have kicked-in.
And since I brought up Ravenloft earlier in this post, how about a Manshoon in the Domains of Dread?
Although I think in that place, he'd barely be 'average evil'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 14:55:11
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Aw, he'd totally get twisted by the Dark Side, pick up a few nifty evil powers/curses along the way, and settle down in his own cozy little Manshoonland Domain - probably all within about a week or two at most. He might only be "average evil" but his greed, ambition, and lust for power provide easy handles the demiplane can manipulate him with, and he's already demonstrated that he's completely unconcerned with any suffering, death, and collateral damage he might cause. And that's assuming he's still sane, lol.
Though the spellplague is said to have burned the entire cosmos, so perhaps extra-planar/worldly clones would have perished. Or simply remain inactive.
I don't recall any "rule" preventing liches from gaining experience levels. I know it was somehow automatically assumed in many campaigns (1e onwards), but I don't know where the idea started. The 2e Van Richten book about liches introduces new (and somewhat risky) "power rituals" which increase a lich's levels/powers, which seems to imply they otherwise cannot gain these levels.
Szass Tam and Larloch absolutely gain levels after becoming liches. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 14:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Is there any particular reason all Manshoons are necessarily on Toril? Perhaps a few were stashed in various extraplanar locations (even inside a Leomunds Secure Chest?), or the lands of Greyhawk and Krynn, or inadvertently transferred to the other Abier-Toril place (whatever that's called) ...
I'd be inclined to say that all the clones were hidden on or near Toril, because being on another plane would likely rule out flipping the consciousness there when the active Manshoon was killed.
Cloak & Dagger explicitly says that some of the Manshoon clones have fled Realmspace for other worlds, so it's entirely likely that there's a Manshoon on Oerth and another on Krynn. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 16:22:23
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Stasis Clones wouldn't activate across planar boundaries. A fair and logical ruling which I find agreeable.
Of course you could stretch the game mechanic and be nitpicky and ask ... how does the spell "know" when to activate a clone? Does it work by sensing the original dying, or by not sensing the original still lives? If the latter, then clones might be simultaneously be active in many planes, just unable to share them.
I'm more inclined to think (as you do) that any/all Manshoons still skulking about were originally "activated" in Faerūn. Though I'm still willing to suggest that some may have been lost to the "other" Realmsworld. And any number of inactive Manshoon clones could remain undiscovered all over the place, including an extraplanar stash or two ... some of these might be long forgotten (after the untimely death of whichever Manshoon created them) and barely sufficient level to cast the Stasis Clone spell, they might have a very outdated understanding of "recent" events.
When did Manshoon first research and use the Stasis Clone spell? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 16:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Is there any particular reason all Manshoons are necessarily on Toril? Perhaps a few were stashed in various extraplanar locations (even inside a Leomunds Secure Chest?), or the lands of Greyhawk and Krynn, or inadvertently transferred to the other Abier-Toril place (whatever that's called) ...
I'd be inclined to say that all the clones were hidden on or near Toril, because being on another plane would likely rule out flipping the consciousness there when the active Manshoon was killed.
Cloak & Dagger explicitly says that some of the Manshoon clones have fled Realmspace for other worlds, so it's entirely likely that there's a Manshoon on Oerth and another on Krynn.
And as Wooly knows, I've a fully detailed a Manshoon-clone active on Krynn.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 17:08:58
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Didn't one end up on Coruscant?
Oh... wait... that was Anaken...
Now to be serious - we know the spell went awry, which means all bets are off. The normal conditions may have also been warped, which means it is theoretical possible that clones stashed 'elsewhere' also became active.
Now, I don't think that's what happened, but there is that 'out' in case anyone else wanted to use it in their games.
Wow, looking at the history of The Circle of Eight (Greyhawk), I can not only find room for Manshoon (he was the defective Rary clone), but I think I found Elminster! Bucknard disappeared in 579 CY, which is right around the time FR was released as an official setting.
And of course we all know that Mordenkainen is the real Khelben Arunsun. 
And now I'm picturing a Ben-Kenobi/Tusken Raider hybrid type character for an Athasian Manshoon...
Let's start a 'Manshoon of the Month' club! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Manshoon Questions
