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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2010 : 01:53:26
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We could discuss if this is the correct forum for me to discuss this topic, it might belong under site content.
There often can be a problem with how people reply to other posts. The Sage has sealed one scroll recently because of this factor.
What I have been advised is in a discussion a person is expected to listen to the other and reply to points with something like this "Yes it says that here, however you should consider this <foo>" (the this being something that offers a counter idea).
Discussion should be something along the lines is I do not believe this works because, what do you think? That discussion started out that way. However it has wandered into what canon says, with (in my impression) many ganging up on one in order to achieve a win.
When something like this occurs, users become defensive and less willing to discuss, rather reverting to the position "I am right and you are wrong because of <foo>"
This is not good IMO for Candlekeep as a whole and have seen such "discussions" cause harm to members that get too emotionally involved, myself included.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 02:25:08
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As one of the people involved in those two threads, I feel I should speak up here. I agree with what Kentinal is saying in general about discussions, whether here or anywhere. It is the give and take, the exchange of ideas, that makes them illuminating and worthwhile. However, I disagree with his read of what happened in the scrolls in question.
The debate was, with maybe one or two exceptions (and then, only minor ones) civil, with many people willing to offer their opinions on the subject. We were polite and were willing to engage on a variety of issues. The problem is that this openness was not reciprocated.
Remember what is the key to a good discussion: the give and take of ideas, the willingness to admit that perhaps you are wrong, and to then reframe your discussion in light of the new views. Or, to stick to your original views, and to give detailed explanations why, in the aim of convincing the other side that they are mistaken.
That didn't happen here. Over eleven pages of replys, the original poster proved unwilling to entertain any ideas that weren't their own. That is, of course, their right. What is highly annoying, however, is when they ask for responses, and then promptly reject the responses and ask the same question in a slightly different way. Or, as also happened often, completely ignore salient points raised by other members of the discussion in favor of dogmatic repetition of the original theme.
That's not a discussion. That's a lecture, at best, and can quickly degenerate into fanatics screaming at each other and moving no one. When one side is utterly unwilling to admit that their views might, in even the slightest way, be wrong, for whatever reason, then the deadlock that resulted is very close to inevitable. Or they simply abandon the debate, as happened in the second thread, refusing to even respond to the critiques that had been raised.
Many did not gang up on one. One stood, utterly refusing to engage in debate or discussion. It is therefore not surprising that debate and discussion eventually broke down, despite the best attempts of the many. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 02:54:52
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*bangs head*
Dogma.
I was reduced to tears because a teacher told me I was wrong the China was located East, North and West of Vietnam, despite the map displayed clearly indicated that China had land East of Vietnam. The teacher said that small land did not count. If one looked at the map and territory counted, the East therefore might not apply either. In fact looking at a current map http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Provinces/I-China-map.gif ,if I did it correctly China appears to have more land East of Vietnam then it has West. Oh I do grant that China has much land Northwest of Vietnam, however that was not the question posed that I was told was wrong.
The one did refer to source book, however the one did agree to concessions along the way. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 05 May 2010 17:27:54 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 03:17:23
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Agreed, Hoondatha. Many did not gang up on one.
The one saw it that way, and Kentinal said it appeared that way as a group, but I didn't see it as a "group" except perhaps "a group of all who posted in the thread." It was a bunch of independent scribes who all happened to take issue with different things the original poster either postulated, or said in his replies to them.
If the poster saw that as "you're all against me" rather than "hmm, all of these people are disagreeing with me, perhaps I'm wrong," that's not something the disagreeing scribes are to blame for.
Case in point: the different tone of discourse in Ed's questions thread. People seem to be more jovial, or polite, or just er, happy there. Even when upset. I think a lot of that is the result of the way THO and Ed treat scribes who ask questions of (or, gasp, disagree with) them.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 03:39:07
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| Blueblade, agree to disagree on how you read it and how I read it? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 11:14:24
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| I actually enjoyed the discussion, even though it was a bit frustrating at times. I think there might have been some minor breaches of good tone and the courtesy that should be a part of a good discussion, but that was minor and by both sides. Canon was used pretty freely by both sides also. It might have seemed a bit much at the last page of the thread, but I think that was more or less an unfortunate accident of many posters thinking and saying more or less the same thing at the same time. I don't think any of us was interested in really ending the discussion. But I have sent a PM to the original poster of the thread in question which I hope will clear things up any way, so its little point for me in discussing this here. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 12:57:41
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| Which threads are these in reference to? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 15:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The 'Waterdeep Army' scroll, mainly.
Ok I just read the Navy scroll and skimmed through most of the Army scroll. Hadn't looked at them before (don't know why, some good reading overall within)...too bad it ended up the way it did. Hopefully it will re-open. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 15:33:24
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I'll take credit for my share of the blame. But I did try to respond to questions being raised, such as need, population size, and cost. What was driving me crazy is that IMO I was misquoted several times (I never said I wanted Waterdeep's Guard to be so large as to expand Waterdeep's Realm. I also never said that I wanted the Waterdeep Guard to be the US Army.) Also, several posters in both threads told things that just are not true, and that's very hard to counter if no one corrects the poster. I'm trying to go by the sourcebooks, it's the only info I have. If someone has information that I don't I would love to hear it.
EDIT: I also never said that I wanted to close the Harbor, yet that was repeated several times. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 05 May 2010 16:01:31 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 15:50:11
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| In the Navy thread I came up with a breakwater idea, and Thauramarth liked it. But once other posters pointed out that they didn't like it, then no one liked it. So IMO there seems to be a little bit of follow the leader type of thing going on. Now, I could be wrong, but that does seem to me to be the case. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 16:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I never said I wanted Waterdeep's Guard to be so large as to expand Waterdeep's Realm.
In that case I misunderstood you, I am sorry, I thought we were talking about Waterdeep needing an army. One of the problems when entering in the middle of a discussion is that it is at times difficult to get a clear overview of the details and original intentions. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 17:18:05
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It can be hard sometimes to be understood using written words and not being able to immediately clarify. Tone also can't be properly conveyed in written format, so its easy to misinterpret what one is saying. Ah the joys of written conversations  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The art of discussion
