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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 08:49:54
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Hi!
I'm trying to start a new campaign in the Realm using 4ed rules.
My biggest problem, among others, is:
I feel there is no sufficient in-game explanation for character's powers, especially for Martial power ones. This became crucial at least in two situations: when role-playing a PC and when you, as a DM, have to rule about a situation not covered by rules.
Did someone conceived a good rationale about martial power, beyond what given in the PHB?
Thank you!
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 09:58:07
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Good question.
I'd say the 'source' of martial power is the self; physical and mental mettle and might. A high level fighter can rip apart a swarm of minions the same way Rambo can rip apart a swarm of cheesy 80s bad guys; because he's a bad-a$$. There isn't any overt magic behind martial powers, generally speaking, such as with arcane or divine power because it's all based in physical rigour and super-human (as in beyond the power of relatively normal people, not as in wearing a cape and spandex) heroics.
Thinking of it as a power source in the same way as arcane, divine and psionic power is a tad misleading when taken out of the pure game mechanics side of things.
Hopefully that helps!
EDIT:
Do you have any specific examples of when you needed further explanation or house ruling? For martial powers, my players seem to be happy with 'I can call up temporary HP because I'm a Dwarven war veteran of a hundred near-death battles with orcs, drow, dragons and giant space hamsters, so I'm well hard.'
As for arcane, wizards use some kind of esoteric formulae and lore, sorcerers feel the flow of magic and can command it to obey them, etc, etc... I'd suggest that specific per-character explanations are best left up to the individual (which doesn't answer your question, I know). |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 24 Mar 2010 10:04:33 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 10:31:42
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At first I tried to figure out the martial power as a sort of KI power of the old Oriental Adventure. But with the release of the PHB3, KI seems closer to the psionic power.
That confuses me a lot! The archetypical fantasy Martial artist, the Monk, uses Psionic Power instead of Martial!!!
I like the idea of an "heroic power source", but... are the other characters less "heroics"? Or.. are ALL the rogues "heroic"? (In my game ranger are based on a more primal power source, and Warlord & Bard on an arcana-derived "sound" source, with martial strokes)
While magic can explain all the mages, Divine intervention well explains clerics powers, does physical might and training explain ALL fighters & rogues exploits? I'm still not convinced that "Martial" is a well defined power source... |
Edited by - Arioch on 24 Mar 2010 10:37:01 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 13:11:26
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It isn't a well defined power source, you are correct, but I think it can explain all the martial powers (that I've seen) with a little imagination. 'Martial' is also a somewhat confusing term as well, as it tends to evoke martial arts as in kung fu and karate, but wielding a sword and shield is just as much a martial art (see the spear wielding warriors of pre-Roman Britain; they trained for years and had some seriously mad skills).
As for being more-or-less heroic; try not to get too hung up on semantics, for your own sake. Of course wizards are no more or less heroic than warriors, and rogues are not uniformly heroic unless you want them to be. You could argue that martial power is 'heroic' insofar as it comes from within (personal feats and reserves of strength and grit), but taking that as an absolute screws things up once you introduce psionics and sorcerers, who are generally believed to operate from internal personal/innate reserves, etc...
I do agree that rangers are rather more primal flavoured than martial, but then we could compare it to the PHB3 Seeker to explain why it's been categorised as martial rather than primal. Ranger stuff is mostly straight up hitty and shooty, plus some stuff that reprisents their hidy, sneaky and woodland wisdomy abilities. Seekers, on the other hand, can summon animated vines and elemental spirits by shooting people in the face. The Seeker is overtly magical, and the Ranger is not, even though a lot of stuff they do is super-human (or heroic, if you prefer) they're just 'awesome' rather than outright magical.
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Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 24 Mar 2010 13:17:54 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 16:45:53
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Thanks to this exchange of ideas I find out which is exactly what I want to explain:
Every power source (divine, psion, arcane, primal) has a sort of connection with a supernatural source. This explains why characters exploiting such a source can do superhuman things!
Martial power does not share such a connection... That's my problem!
And I'm guessing if, at least into Forgotten Realms, we can find some! |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 17:05:09
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hmmm, a supernatural source/explanation for martial power...
*puts DM thinking cap on*
You could strip the SE Asian serial number off of Ki and give it a different name and more Faerunian (western-oid rather than asian-oid) background. As written in the few examples of Ki in the 4e books (Monk and Assassin from DDI), it doesn't have any particular links to any particular power source, but does have fairly strong links to beating the poo and of people and not getting the poo kicked out of the user.
You could simply call it 'The Call'; chosen by fate or attuned to forces deep within themselves, those that heed The Call and take up arms become invincible beacons of death as the power of The Call surges through them and carries those strong enough to ride it to glory. No gods hold power over it, and no magic can harness it; only the chosen few that hear The Call can wrap themselves in it's potency.
How's that?
My favourite explanation is still that the various worlds of DnD are cinematic and dramatic places where the heroes can pull cool stunts for the same reason they can in films and books; because it's cool and justified in the narrative, etc.
EDIT: damn double post... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 24 Mar 2010 17:06:23 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 18:20:07
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I'm thinking here to a more Lore-related answer:
What if Tempus, in the years following the SpellPlague, witnessed a lot of brave warriors dying overwhelmed by the supernatural abilities of BlueFire spawned creatures?
While mages and warlocks and clerics started to master new abilities to replace the lost ones, warriors and rogues struggled to survive thanks only to their own strength...
... so he decided to reward them! As long as they keep honouring him fighting to survive against all odds, they can (mostly unconsciously) tap a very small portion of his power, just to have the same chance to survive as their opponents! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 18:28:38
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I love anything Tempus related! Also, keep in mind that at level in 4e- you are consider to be a cut above the common person. You have already made a name for yourself (however small) and that you are meant to do good things in life (not alignment-wise).
I like your lore-answer- they are tapping into some form of preternatural power source. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 23:34:01
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IMO, the martial power source represents your own ability to pull off amazing moves and techniques in combat, based on sheer skill and training. Fencers refer to their particular attacks, which are just a series of disengages, feints, and thrusts--no magic involved. Some such moves reach legendary heights, such as the various (and infamous in the fencing world) botte secretas (secret blows, which are defined as being unblockable). There's nothing magical about these effects, though it can certainly look magical to an outsider.
A master of Israeli special forces technique (forgot the name at the moment) and a practitioner of kung fu are both fighting with their respective trainings, and they can do things that almost look magical to the untrained. They can use moves to knock people down, move them around, disarm them, weaken them, etc., etc., all the things you can do in 4e with martial powers. I mean, I fence, and some of these higher-level fencers just amaze me.
As for hit points and healing surges, well, it depends on how you look at what hit points represent. To me, it's a measure of fatigue and physical vitality--the lower your hit points get, the closer you are to making a mistake and suffering a mortal wound (which is what would put you down). This also makes a LOT of sense with the Second Wind that all characters can do to recover hit points (and note that the Second Wind is not a magical effect--by its name, it's just you finding your second wind--or your runner's high--when your body releases endorphins and you get a surge of energy).
Healing surges represent your body's ability to recover from damage--when they're exhausted, the body is just so beat up it can't be revived without rest.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 08:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
IMO, the martial power source represents your own ability to pull off amazing moves and techniques in combat, based on sheer skill and training. Fencers refer to their particular attacks, which are just a series of disengages, feints, and thrusts--no magic involved. Some such moves reach legendary heights, such as the various (and infamous in the fencing world) botte secretas (secret blows, which are defined as being unblockable). There's nothing magical about these effects, though it can certainly look magical to an outsider.
A master of Israeli special forces technique (forgot the name at the moment) and a practitioner of kung fu are both fighting with their respective trainings, and they can do things that almost look magical to the untrained. They can use moves to knock people down, move them around, disarm them, weaken them, etc., etc., all the things you can do in 4e with martial powers. I mean, I fence, and some of these higher-level fencers just amaze me.
As for hit points and healing surges, well, it depends on how you look at what hit points represent. To me, it's a measure of fatigue and physical vitality--the lower your hit points get, the closer you are to making a mistake and suffering a mortal wound (which is what would put you down). This also makes a LOT of sense with the Second Wind that all characters can do to recover hit points (and note that the Second Wind is not a magical effect--by its name, it's just you finding your second wind--or your runner's high--when your body releases endorphins and you get a surge of energy).
Healing surges represent your body's ability to recover from damage--when they're exhausted, the body is just so beat up it can't be revived without rest.
Cheers
Krav Maga, I think, is the Israeli martial art (developed by a Hungarian chap during WWII, I believe).
Yeah, that's pretty much a far more eloquent version of the point I was trying to get across; the human body and mind can be pretty f'ing metal even before you stick them in a cinematic, fantastical world of high adventure, etc.
The only problem I can think of with a Tempus inspired martial power source is that it dips into divine power source territory.
However, as with all such things, the correct answer to the question of martial power is the answer that best suits your fancy! |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 25 Mar 2010 08:18:24 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 09:36:55
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Thank you all for your answers! 
My idea behind Tempus intervention was something closer to giving the martial power user the possibility to get a deeper understand (beyond mortal boundaries) of their inner strength.
I don't want to fuel argumentation here but I think too many different aspect of the game are justified with "fatigue" (in broad meaning): martial encounter/daily powers expenditure, hit points, healing surges loss... Is quite hard for me to accept a Vancian system for combat manoeuvres, but probably that's a limit of mine!
That said, I suppose that in a (mainly)medieval fantasy world, things that seem magical *ARE*, one way or another, magical! This is more true if their ultimate effect is very similar to what you can obtain with magic. If I can paralyse an opponent both with spells, both with weapon... my personal feelings is that magic can be perceived as less amazing by my players.
So I tried to find out an answer to my questions. I imagined relaxing in a tavern, talking and drinking with a fighter and a mage, while a bard tells the story of a changed world to his delighted audience.
At some point, during the evening, the mage started explaining me how the magic now works. But that's another story!  |
Edited by - Arioch on 25 Mar 2010 09:45:42 |
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A question about 4ed power sources
