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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 00:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Guys, WotC has a budget as well. If they would contract me (or Erik, or Brian, or anyone else that frequents here) to write to our hearts content- I would quit my day-job and start right now ;) The fact is that they don't and they set word-count limits for a reason. They also see digital trends that they would be really ignorant to ignore. For the first time ever, I am able to pull up articles over my smart-phone. I have access to DDI whereever there is a 3G connection! (woot) Many people see the benefit in that and unfortunately that means the print side will suffer.
By the way, this is not just a problem in the DnD world- publishing in general is suffering heavily and many are scrambling to find new ways to reinvent the industry. Check out any number of publishers out there and you will see the trend. This is why the Kindle is kicking butt- people love it.
You know, I get this... But still, posting a file online is a lot cheaper than printing and distributing a magazine or sourcebook. And yet not too long ago, we had all three: online material, magazines, and sourcebooks, all coming out on a regular basis. We are getting dramatically less lore, but it's being distributed thru a system that was in place years ago and costs much less than printing and physical distribution. For even half of what they spent in say 2005, we should be getting a lot more lore than what we're getting now.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Cutting out the $10 system and the $5 system, leaving only the $1 system, means that you've now got $15 extra dollars that can go into the $1 system -- and yet, from what I'm seeing, we're just getting $2.50. I'm not saying they should have gone to sinking all of that saved money into just the online offerings, but I do think that the savings should fund a lot more than what we're getting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Mar 2010 00:19:35 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 03:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Guys, WotC has a budget as well. If they would contract me (or Erik, or Brian, or anyone else that frequents here) to write to our hearts content- I would quit my day-job and start right now ;) The fact is that they don't and they set word-count limits for a reason. They also see digital trends that they would be really ignorant to ignore. For the first time ever, I am able to pull up articles over my smart-phone. I have access to DDI whereever there is a 3G connection! (woot) Many people see the benefit in that and unfortunately that means the print side will suffer.
By the way, this is not just a problem in the DnD world- publishing in general is suffering heavily and many are scrambling to find new ways to reinvent the industry. Check out any number of publishers out there and you will see the trend. This is why the Kindle is kicking butt- people love it.
You know, I get this... But still, posting a file online is a lot cheaper than printing and distributing a magazine or sourcebook. And yet not too long ago, we had all three: online material, magazines, and sourcebooks, all coming out on a regular basis. We are getting dramatically less lore, but it's being distributed thru a system that was in place years ago and costs much less than printing and physical distribution. For even half of what they spent in say 2005, we should be getting a lot more lore than what we're getting now.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Cutting out the $10 system and the $5 system, leaving only the $1 system, means that you've now got $15 extra dollars that can go into the $1 system -- and yet, from what I'm seeing, we're just getting $2.50. I'm not saying they should have gone to sinking all of that saved money into just the online offerings, but I do think that the savings should fund a lot more than what we're getting.
Err in part it has to be working like this.
While it clearly possible to pay for 500,000 words a month, they need to be paid for.
Without knowing internal details WotC clearly had problems with cost and with sales.
There likely was something in excess of 100,000.00 in cost bringing DDI in House, because the outsourced vendor failed to produce on time. Even if WotC got a full refund there were and are the in house costs not planned for that need to be paid for.
From what rants I have seen the revenue side is less then planned for in both number and the current price of a part of the suite promised. As I have not been reading much recently perhaps they did get all the tools promised by now and are charging their planned price. Even if that has occurred, it still appears likely the number of members are much lower then hoped for.
Any company can eat a loss if big enough to survive, however can not always operate at a loss going forward. Hasbro would not allow that. Thus it tends to follow WotC content purchased each month per word count would be less then the amount of subscription fees paid or expected to be paid in the future.
No one will tell us how many money DDI is currently profiting per month, day or year. It still might even be a lost leader that the books division covers, as I said I do not know.
We do all know online content is less costly for the company then print product. What we do not know though is how much their sales are, nor what amount of development costs those sales need to cover before paying for a single word and be consider a profitable unit.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 03:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KentinalThere likely was something in excess of 100,000.00 in cost bringing DDI in House, because the outsourced vendor failed to produce on time.
Rather higher than that as I understand it. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 25 Mar 2010 03:45:51 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 03:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by KentinalThere likely was something in excess of 100,000.00 in cost bringing DDI in House, because the outsourced vendor failed to produce on time.
Rather higher than that as I understand it.
That is why I used the word "excess", it would not surprise me much if it was 500,000.00 to 1,000,000.00 based on what I have seen. I just used a consecutive number to avoid being accused of using a too high a number. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 04:15:55
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| Well, if the DDI isn't making the money they anticipated, there's a problem with the business plan, and it needs revision. More lore could sway some people. Going back to print products would sway a lot more people... Heck, even doing a per-article thing instead of the all-or-nothing would prolly increase numbers, because then people like myself would no longer be boycotting WotC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 04:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, if the DDI isn't making the money they anticipated, there's a problem with the business plan, and it needs revision. More lore could sway some people. Going back to print products would sway a lot more people... Heck, even doing a per-article thing instead of the all-or-nothing would prolly increase numbers, because then people like myself would no longer be boycotting WotC.
Well they clearly changed plans, however best I can guess those were short term ones to avoid a complete failure. Free content for months after planing to go to fee, reduced fee because all promised did not become available, etc.
There may be a long term plan to recover costs and lost anticipated income - just I have yet to notice signs of such.
Before WotC nuked the forums with the new beta forums my sig read "However plans are subject to change" or words close to that. When they :improved the forums, I lost my sig., saved messages and ease of use that existed before. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 06:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
But regardless of your opinion, I'm going to continue to produce Realms stuff. If that's 4e FR, then so be it. I would like my work to be judged on its own merits, but if it falls victim to the fallout of the rest of 4e FR hate, then so be it. I'm still going to produce it.
The part that makes me so sad, Erik, is that you and the other designers care. That's why I keep coming back, to see you fine folk. If you didn't care, I wouldn't bother. It's that caring that makes me like a designer.
It breaks my heart to see what's been done with 4e. Heck, I'll leave 4e Realms OUT of my equation when I say that. It's not my taste. That said, there's plenty of little details in the 4e Realms that keep me interested... but little knowledge of said locations. Sadly, if I want to discuss x place in the new Realms there aren't as many sources... and I don't like the DDI's model, nor do I play 4e, so I'm hurt even more by not getting to see LORE from designers I LIKE.
I like Laerakond, but hate its placement, destroying places I loved (the Tashalar, Halruaa, etc.). WHEN it returns in MY Realms, it will be where I choose (near Kara-Tur).
Put me in with the "per article" DDI customer. I'd read FR lore that way, but I don't want anything to do with the other stuff.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 10:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, if the DDI isn't making the money they anticipated, there's a problem with the business plan, and it needs revision. More lore could sway some people. Going back to print products would sway a lot more people... Heck, even doing a per-article thing instead of the all-or-nothing would prolly increase numbers, because then people like myself would no longer be boycotting WotC.
Wooly, Realmslore will not be the savior of D&D or the FR product line. If it were, Hasbro/Wizards would have a greater vested interest in producing it. The bottom line is that there are people at Hasbro/Wizards that have nothing to do with game design/development that monitor market trends and metrics (not unlike any other business entity). They ultimately decide where resources are spent and have (rightly so) deepened the digital initiative to be both an adequate and viable solution for sustainable growth. Unfortunately, that curtails many of the things that we, as Realms fans, love to see. But I can’t blame them- their responsibility is to bring in revenue.
A lot of conjecture can get tossed around, but in the end we have no access to their data and even our best guests are likely miles from the reality of the situation there. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 15:01:06
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Here's my strategy for affecting change in DDI. It's just my opinion, though I think it has a logical basis--and also, I perceive this to be happening already. Do with it as you will:
One cannot declare a boycott of WotC and simultaneously demand more Realmslore, saying it "might" sway you and bring you back into the fold. That is a sucker's bet. WotC could shift their focus to more Realmslore, and not bring back enough people to make a difference. (This might even have the opposite of the desired effect, and make them lessen their Realmslore offering because it doesn't seem to be working.)
The bottomline here is money. The way to get DDI to put up more Realmslore (maybe even create an entirely FR magazine, who knows?) is to sign up for DDI, and--once you're there--advocate for more FR stuff. Back up your words with your bucks. That's how you communicate with WotC. Don't tease with the potential promise of support--give it, then use your voice to advocate for more of what you want. WotC isn't going to listen to you if you don't subscribe, and really they shouldn't. (I mean, they shouldn't have listened to all those people who railed against the Realms 3e who had no experience or involvement in the Realms 3e. Why should they listen to gamers who boycott the Realms 4e?)
I already see this happening. Over the last few months, more people who subscribe to DDI have advocated for Realms stuff, and lo-and-behold, it has emerged. Ed has a whole monthly column. Brian and Matt has been working their butts off.
I don't know if this will work, but it's the best, surest chance I can see to getting what we want.
Cheers
P.S. Is there a thread over at the WotC boards to advocate for *sell articles on an individual basis* thing? Because if there isn't, there should be.
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 16:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Here's my strategy for affecting change in DDI. It's just my opinion, though I think it has a logical basis--and also, I perceive this to be happening already. Do with it as you will:
One cannot declare a boycott of WotC and simultaneously demand more Realmslore, saying it "might" sway you and bring you back into the fold. That is a sucker's bet. WotC could shift their focus to more Realmslore, and not bring back enough people to make a difference. (This might even have the opposite of the desired effect, and make them lessen their Realmslore offering because it doesn't seem to be working.)
The bottomline here is money. The way to get DDI to put up more Realmslore (maybe even create an entirely FR magazine, who knows?) is to sign up for DDI, and--once you're there--advocate for more FR stuff. Back up your words with your bucks. That's how you communicate with WotC. Don't tease with the potential promise of support--give it, then use your voice to advocate for more of what you want. WotC isn't going to listen to you if you don't subscribe, and really they shouldn't. (I mean, they shouldn't have listened to all those people who railed against the Realms 3e who had no experience or involvement in the Realms 3e. Why should they listen to gamers who boycott the Realms 4e?)
I already see this happening. Over the last few months, more people who subscribe to DDI have advocated for Realms stuff, and lo-and-behold, it has emerged. Ed has a whole monthly column. Brian and Matt has been working their butts off.
I don't know if this will work, but it's the best, surest chance I can see to getting what we want.
Cheers
P.S. Is there a thread over at the WotC boards to advocate for *sell articles on an individual basis* thing? Because if there isn't, there should be.
I appreciate that way of thinking, but it could just as easily end up "Look at all the new subscribers! Let's keep things just as they are." mentality.
And, having been just about the only person to regularly ask about he Fansite Policy in the WotC boards (thread), and not having gotten a single response since Rouse was let go, I'd say that they don't read the boards too much either.
Meanwhile, since Paizo released their fansite policy, they have over 90 sites registered, including The Dragonlance Nexus
Ironically, I just tooled over to the DLNexus to catch up on their site since it's been a while. And noticed that they are publishing stuff for Pathfinder rules and 4th Edition rules. So, as much as I might have said before that I appreciate Alaundo and everyone being cautious, I am seriously re-thinking those words. Maybe it's time to test the waters, guys. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 22:35:05
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Coming from a sub-scriber's stand point, I really can't say enough how much I like how DDI works. I paid for the $50 for a year subscription and most assured I'll be staying on when that year comes up.
Not only do I get access to all the Realmslore but also the character generator, Adventure builder, and D&D compendium. Now I understand that the mechanics of 4E doesn't appeal to some people, but the articles in Dungeon can pretty much be applied to any edition and it's a well-spring of info and ideas for DMs and Players a like. And for me, $4.16 a month for all of that really isn't that big a deal.
I can see why people would only want to pay for certain stuff out of DDI, and it's a reason I'd like to see a FR specific Dragon/Dungeon Annual. But there is still alot of Realmslore out there to take a hold of, you just have to grab it. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 22:58:52
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| Ashe, I agree with what you're saying, but the time to test the waters was 2 years ago. Candlekeep's pretty much been in a holding pattern since then, and I'd suggest that's another reason that's led to the decline of this place. |
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Julian Grimm
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 23:34:05
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| As far as the DDI goes I am not using it not because of 4e but because of WOTC killing Dragon and Dungeon and replacing it with a digital knock off. I enjoyed both magazines and liked reading them in my favorite chair or on my porch while smoking my pipe. Doing so with a laptop does not give me the same enjoyment. While I would pay for things like a character generator and table utilities I would rather see them in a core rules style format than a subscription model. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 23:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Here's my strategy for affecting change in DDI. It's just my opinion, though I think it has a logical basis--and also, I perceive this to be happening already. Do with it as you will:
One cannot declare a boycott of WotC and simultaneously demand more Realmslore, saying it "might" sway you and bring you back into the fold. That is a sucker's bet. WotC could shift their focus to more Realmslore, and not bring back enough people to make a difference. (This might even have the opposite of the desired effect, and make them lessen their Realmslore offering because it doesn't seem to be working.)
The bottomline here is money. The way to get DDI to put up more Realmslore (maybe even create an entirely FR magazine, who knows?) is to sign up for DDI, and--once you're there--advocate for more FR stuff. Back up your words with your bucks. That's how you communicate with WotC. Don't tease with the potential promise of support--give it, then use your voice to advocate for more of what you want. WotC isn't going to listen to you if you don't subscribe, and really they shouldn't. (I mean, they shouldn't have listened to all those people who railed against the Realms 3e who had no experience or involvement in the Realms 3e. Why should they listen to gamers who boycott the Realms 4e?)
I already see this happening. Over the last few months, more people who subscribe to DDI have advocated for Realms stuff, and lo-and-behold, it has emerged. Ed has a whole monthly column. Brian and Matt has been working their butts off.
I don't know if this will work, but it's the best, surest chance I can see to getting what we want.
Cheers
P.S. Is there a thread over at the WotC boards to advocate for *sell articles on an individual basis* thing? Because if there isn't, there should be.
I appreciate that way of thinking, but it could just as easily end up "Look at all the new subscribers! Let's keep things just as they are." mentality.
I concur.
Also, my stance on boycotting WotC is that they are for the most part not producing what I want, and the only way to buy what little I do want is to buy stuff I don't want with it.
If I need new tires, I don't buy an entirely new car -- I buy just the tires. To continue the car analogy, if a particular auto maker is not producing cars I want, then I'm not buying a car from them.
If the DDI included dramaticly more Realmslore, then it might be worthy my gaming dollar. But an article here and an article there, bundled up with articles and services I have no use for, is not worth my money.
Or, if they sold articles on an individual basis, then I'd buy them.
My boycott isn't that I'm refusing to buy anything from WotC -- it's that I'm refusing to buy anything I don't want from WotC. If they want my money, they have to give me what I want, and allow me the option of only buying that.
I spent 20 years backing up my words with my bucks. I've bought almost every Realms product twice. If that's not telling WotC what I do and don't want, I don't know what is.
As for the idea of a thread advocating per article sales... Before my long ago banning from their site, I once suggested that WotC could do a survey to see what kind of web content we wanted. One of their web people popped in and informed me WotC was not interested in doing that -- their decisions on web content were based solely on page hits. They weren't even interested in finding out what we wanted, only what we liked best of what they decided to give us. I have seen no evidence that this line of thinking has changed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 11:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
-- their decisions on web content were based solely on page hits. They weren't even interested in finding out what we wanted, only what we liked best of what they decided to give us. I have seen no evidence that this line of thinking has changed.
Well that's just a stupid way to do business IMO  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 12:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
-- their decisions on web content were based solely on page hits. They weren't even interested in finding out what we wanted, only what we liked best of what they decided to give us. I have seen no evidence that this line of thinking has changed.
Well that's just a stupid way to do business IMO
This is why I've become such a big fan of Paizo, their game designers use the forums as a tool to see what their consumer base wants...and heres the kicker...ACTUALY LISTENS TO THEM! I dont think WotC can ever claim as much, heck even Paizo's CEO is a regular poster on the forums. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 20:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gambit
This is why I've become such a big fan of Paizo, their game designers use the forums as a tool to see what their consumer base wants...and heres the kicker...ACTUALY LISTENS TO THEM! I dont think WotC can ever claim as much, heck even Paizo's CEO is a regular poster on the forums.
I'm with you, brother. I am a Golarion fanboy now. WoTC doesn't want me around anymore so I am gone |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 20:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
WoTC doesn't want me around anymore so I am gone
Not to put MC on the spot or anything (harboring nothing but goodwill toward a poster I value), but this is an attitude I have seen time and again.
Why are people insistent on taking this so personally?
When I dedicate one of my books to Candlekeep or to one or more of the posters here, that's personal. When I borrow someone's name or likeness, mold it into a character, then senselessly murder the character in one of my books, *that's* personal.[1] (And I only do either of those things to show my affection for someone.)
([1] Disclaimer: Erik Scott de Bie's Forgotten Realms works are works of fiction, and any resemblance to any actual person--living, dead, or undead--is purely coincidental.)
4e FR? The Spellplague? The shifting map? The entry on Wheloon? Not personal.
Problematic? Awkward? Off-putting? Maybe.
Not personal.
It's not like WotC sat down and thought about how they could eliminate loyal customers. That's completely ridiculous. And it's not like they don't care about you now. They are a BUSINESS, just like any other. They are doing their utmost to please everyone they can, because why wouldn't they? That's where the money comes from.
I, for one, would rather try and nudge the Realms in a direction I want, rather than cut my losses and go elsewhere. It's just too important to me to give up. For now, I'm going to stay and try to write good Realms stuff that will bring more customers. So that the people who make the decisions will push for more Realms stuff, which I'll happily provide.
And for the record, *I* want you around. Brian and Matt James want you around. Ed wants you around. Believe it or not, WotC wants you around--whether they cheese you off with their attempts to keep you or not.
The only one that wants you gone is you.
And if you're going to act on that impulse, well, that's your prerogative.
And I personally think that's really, really tragic.
Cheers
P.S. About Paizo: Paizo is very, very cool. The stuff they put out, the community on their messageboards . . . very, very cool. I wish WotC could do that, but they just don't have the resources to do everything Hasbro demands of them, and also do quite the same thing that Paizo does. They are making serious efforts on the community to be more personal and inclusive. If anyone's interested, check out the bookclub over at the WotC boards: http://community.wizards.com/bookclub |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:03:27
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I can only speak for myself, so that's what I'm going to do.
I don't like the post-Spellplague Realms. Has nothing to do with which edition it is a part of. If they had done the same thing but kept producing 3rd edition rules and books, I would have been just upset. But you're right, Erik. It's not personal. But, there's a few places I love to visit (Yavin's Moon, Middle-Earth, Pern, Narnia, the TARDIS). And to alter a place I love to go (most times to just soak up the atmosphere), so drastically is very disheartening. Not too mention, I've been there before. With BattleTech's Dark Age. With Spidey's Brand New Day. With DC's Final Crisis. Change is fine, everything should grow and change over time. But change just for change's sake is not good.
Anyway, so I've started playing Pathfinder. I've run a couple of games, and really enjoy the setting because it feels a lot like the Realms to me. Does this mean I've given up on the Realms? Heck no! I still love playing in the Realms. I converting some old adventures and such to the Pathfinder rules to hook a new generation, but I'm know that if I'm telling a story in the Realms, it's not going to have the Spellplague in it. If it's someone else's story? I'm fine with that. I'll even play in games set in post-Spellplague. But I won't be spending any money to do so.
And regarding the WotC boards, I've lost a great deal of faith in the community since Scott was let go last year, especially since no one even glances at the Fansite Policy since he left. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:11:37
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I can say, I hate the spellscars... but ERik has seen me type this over and over again....
so much so that maybe I should put it in my Sig.
post spelplague realms.... well I dont like some of the things they did, like getting rid of all of Halruaa..
Yes I know there were survivors... but still its not really the same.
I also didnt like the fact that they up and combined many of the deities...... and on top of that they kept
Angaradhh over Sehanine.... I cant even spell Angaradhh 9/10s of the time, and I dont like her...
they should of left Sehanine and took her moon portfolio away... left her with dreams and fate.
anyway, I'll be around... just for more Fox at Twiight........maybe ERik will get the go ahead from wotc one day to ahve a scene in a book of her eating Ice Cream in the nude..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
WoTC doesn't want me around anymore so I am gone
Not to put MC on the spot or anything (harboring nothing but goodwill toward a poster I value), but this is an attitude I have seen time and again.
Why are people insistent on taking this so personally?
Multiple reasons I expect, perhaps including:
Because people have enjoyed something for multiple editions and decades in some cases and a new design team comes in and radically breaks with the setting to the point where it no longer resembles what it had previously been (I started with 3e fwiw). The massive break which largely took the form of the default 4e PoL metasetting content and tropes forced into FR, oftentimes at the exclusion of material that had been part of the setting already. I can see how that could come off as arrogant and presumptive - a sort of 'we're now in charge and we know what's best for the setting you enjoy, and that's all of our ideas for what's really a different setting when it all boils down to it.' Massive, unexpected, and perceived-disrespectful changes will make people take it personally.
And not FR precisely, but 4e in general, there were some really truly poor statements made during the initial release period that soured it for many. Wyatt's statements in 'Worlds and Monsters' about what D&D was and what it was not came off as boorish, even if it might not have been intended to insult people whose play style might have been less gamist and more 'traipsing through fairy rings and interacting with the little people'. Later on there was a podcast where a number of elements of the 1e/2e/3e cosmology were openly mocked while at the same time everyone on the podcast didn't honestly seem to know anything about some of those elements. A sense of 'I don't know anything about this but I'll giggle at its presence in pre-4e games anyways' really ticked some folks off. And in a blog later on, it was rather poor form I think to take something pre-4e and refer to it as the "antithesis of fun". Not great PR if you want to respect your customers from the 3e era (or previous eras).
Other stuff too including the moderation of the forums by former community liasons, perceived bait-and-switch with the DDI promising elements that were never developed and quietly swept under the rug once people started paying for the service. And I had a friend fired from WotC under rather poor circumstances which did not endear me to the company (unrelated to the design team or DDI).
That said for all of some very poorly spoken statements and very questionable tone, WotC never intended to fire their customers, and obviously they did what they thought was the right thing to do. It may have been rash, foolish and out of touch with their fans, and it ultimately may have backfired on them spectacularly, but they had the best of motives. Unfortunately it may be too late with the lack of printed support compared to all other editions of the game, with a perception that 4e FR was designed to cater to the RPGA and/or to people who actively didn't like the setting previously.
Intended as personal or not, it was still a perfect storm of negative actions towards people who had previously been fans of the company or their products. Unfortunately for WotC the route they took really did cheese off many of their biggest fans, and those are the people who may disproportionately buy the books and who start games and introduce new people to the setting. Some short term profit may ultimately damage the setting IP in the long term, combined with a perception that with a cessation of printed support, the setting is out of print, and that long term damage is what I'd be most worried about. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 26 Mar 2010 21:37:18 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
of my books to Candlekeep or to one or more of the posters here, that's personal. When I borrow someone's name or likeness, mold it into a character, then senselessly murder the character in one of my books, *that's* personal.[1] (And I only do either of those things to show my affection for someone.)
ooo ooo please name a villain after me and blatantly kill him off for no reason (or put in a reason if you prefer) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:38:52
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Gremlins 2: the new batch (iPhone style)
double post |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:39:43
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the only thing I'd like an authot to do via put an easter egg of me in any book, is to put my name on a tombstone in a graveyard that one must pass by....
Morib isnt it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:46:02
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I agree with Ashe and Wooly. The thing about it is, I showed them what I wanted by buying the stuff I wanted, and most of it was brand new as well (at least the 3.5 stuff, and some 2nd ed stuff also), and certainly the novels. Hell, I would've even considered the DDI, not for the 4e stuff, but for the gaming table... and lo and behold, the one thing that could have gotten my attention was postponed indefinitely. As for being disillusioned about the Realms... um, no, not really, otherwise you would've seen me selling it all away. It's just that the changes wrought do not act as a lure to get me involved in it. 4e as a system I don't know, and frankly, with all the stuff I have for all the previous incarnations, why should I want to saddle on yet another horse, if 3.5 works just fine? I own all the essential 3e stuff, including every printed Realms book of that era and those that went before (minus 2 official items) and I haven't even read all of them yet. So if every bleeding boxed set, and every supplement, and every adventure does not indicate what I would like to see/own... what does?
Subscribing to a program that offers me nothing, or nearly nothing, of value for my game (which is rare enough as it is) is kind of redundant. BTW, I also had to discontinue all the Paizo stuff I had on subscription for money reasons. But, unlike Golarion, I would have tried to get new Realms-stuff, if Wizards had gone through the effort of actually checking with their entire customer base, and not decided to draw a line, leaving the old farts out.
IF it could be arranged to become a patron to Realmslore, with us (the fans) deciding what Ed or Steven or Eric or Erik, or whomever were to write, I (and everyone else) could decide with their wallets what was being produced. IF that were the case, I wonder what kind of lore we would see...
My guess: pre-Spellplague... not even tied to a system, but just lore dealing with things that do not revolve around the divine soap opera. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 21:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I, for one, would rather try and nudge the Realms in a direction I want, rather than cut my losses and go elsewhere. It's just too important to me to give up. For now, I'm going to stay and try to write good Realms stuff that will bring more customers. So that the people who make the decisions will push for more Realms stuff, which I'll happily provide.
The problem here is that where the Realms is now is a full 180 away from where we want the Realms to be. Sure, we (as in Candlekeep as a whole) might be able to give it little nudges, but are we going to get Mystra back? Is the Spellplague going to be retconned out of existence? Are we going to get back to 1375 DR and get the Cormyr book a lot of us have been asking for?
I'm not going to stick around and try to nudge something that I utterly despise back towards something I find palatable, especially when there are much tastier settings out there and actually supported.
You know, I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone here when I say that we want to be a part of the setting. We want to have a continued investment in it. Ed, Matt, Brian and yourself might want us to stick around, but if you want us to, you'll have to produce something that resembles the Realms. Cause what's currently being put out is Realms in Name Only. |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 22:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
In terms of new Realmslore, Brimstone has the right of it. Granted it's not filtering through at a rate I'd like, but it's worthwhile appreciating that Wizards have a lot of material to cover every month, and there's only so much room in each issue of the digital DRAGON and DUNGEON Magazines.
If we assume that the page count will remain the same, would it be a stretch to further assume that the FR content will sooner or later vanish? There's a new campaign setting coming out every year, and I suppose the biggest focus will be on the latest one, then on the one that came before, and so on. (WotC wants to sell DDI after all, and campaign settings are the best promotion DDI can get, apart from a new rules edition.)
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 22:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The bottomline here is money. The way to get DDI to put up more Realmslore (maybe even create an entirely FR magazine, who knows?) is to sign up for DDI, and--once you're there--advocate for more FR stuff. Back up your words with your bucks. That's how you communicate with WotC.
I don't want to come across as disrespectful, but IMHO this advice is utterly absurd. In other words: 'If you don't like a product, then buy it - maybe then it'll get better.' Personally I do back up my words with my bucks by not giving them to WotC. That's how it usually works. If I don't belong to an audience WotC is targeting, then so be it. Should they one day decide to target the audience I belong to, things may be different. (But honestly, even then I'd refrain from buying. I disagree with WotC's business and design philosophies so fundamentally, and they've done so much to alienate the part of the customer base I belong to (and I'm not talking about the obvious reasons, but about reasons that would go extremely OT, although Shemmy was kind enough to name just a few), that I'm afraid we're going separate ways for good.)
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why are people insistent on taking this so personally?
When I dedicate one of my books to Candlekeep or to one or more of the posters here, that's personal. When I borrow someone's name or likeness, mold it into a character, then senselessly murder the character in one of my books, *that's* personal.[1] (And I only do either of those things to show my affection for someone.)
([1] Disclaimer: Erik Scott de Bie's Forgotten Realms works are works of fiction, and any resemblance to any actual person--living, dead, or undead--is purely coincidental.)
4e FR? The Spellplague? The shifting map? The entry on Wheloon? Not personal.
Problematic? Awkward? Off-putting? Maybe.
Not personal.
It's not like WotC sat down and thought about how they could eliminate loyal customers. That's completely ridiculous. (...)
I live in a small town. There's a particular place just outside of town I love to visit, a very beautiful spot we call the Bocksberg park (though it isn't an actual park). Virtually everybody in town has spent a great deal of their childhood there, it's one of the signature places, if you will, that make this town what it is. Now, the town's in dire need of money and because of this is in talks with a big corporation to sell the grounds because the corporation wants to pave it and put a mall and a parking lot there. Sure, it's not personal, they're not doing it to offend me personally, so why on earth would I be furious, right?
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 22:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
WoTC doesn't want me around anymore so I am gone
Not to put MC on the spot or anything (harboring nothing but goodwill toward a poster I value), but this is an attitude I have seen time and again.
Why are people insistent on taking this so personally?
Simple. Brude Cordell and others made a point of stating in the build up to 4E. That the Realms had to overhauled and completely changed. I felt as if we, the "old guard", were ignored in favor getting a new younger crowd. Our wants of FR were discarded. IMHO |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 22:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[brIt's not like WotC sat down and thought about how they could eliminate loyal customers. That's completely ridiculous.
I agree. However, they sat down and made the decision to ignore me for a new crowd.
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When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
Edited by - MerrikCale on 26 Mar 2010 23:58:08 |
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What happened to Open ,Free and Spirited Debate?
