| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Valygar
Acolyte
1 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 17:03:41
|
Hello.
I've been looking some information about Arach-Tinilith and the age of female drows, when they start their education there, but I found various info - one, that when they're 16, and other, when they are 50.
Which one is correct?
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 22:52:41
|
| thought it was at puberty.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
 |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 08:09:10
|
I'm not sure where y'all got that. I haven't read Elaine Cunningham's stories, yet.
But the original lore was:
quote:
As a fighter, he [Drizzt] would spend ten years in the Academy, not such a long time considering the thirty years of study a wizard endured in Sorcere, or the fifty years a budding priestess would spend in Arach-Tinilith. While fighters began their training at the young age of twenty, wizards could not start until their twenty-fifth birthday, and clerics had to wait until the age of forty. (bold added; Homeland, P3:C13)
This implies that ordinarily clerics graduate at age 90 (40 + 50 = 90).
It's odd that you mention that Liriel was considered to be late at age 40. Drizzt's sisters Briza and Vierna really seem to have been late, then, since they were apparently 400 and maybe 200, respectively, when they graduated, just before the youngest sister Maya. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Mar 2010 08:27:24 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 21:19:14
|
| No, I believe they were both much younger than that. Malice herself wasn't much over 400, and Briza as the oldest was probably around 275 at most. Maya was the youngest at around 100, I think. Which would explain why she was still just finishing up at Arach-Tinilith. But Elaine's book did specifically state that Liriel was just short of her fortieth birthday (chapter 2, page 30, in my paper-back copy- I've got the book in front of me) when Matron Triel called her home to tell her she was being sent there. Just a few pages earlier, (ch. 2, pg 28) Triel was talking with her younger sister Sos'Uptu about adding more clerics to the House to build back up it's strength after the war with Mithril Hall, and it is mentioned that most females start the training at the age of 25 or the onset of puberty, whichever comes first (I'm guessing that makes drow puberty start around 20-25, which would make them about 10 or 11 in human terms). She even tells Liriel that she is fifteen years late in going, so the time frame is specific in this case. It was more generally stated in Homeland, which really only dealt with Melee-Magthere, anyway. And Triel even led Liriel to think she was going to Sorcere, until right at the end, just to annoy her and her father. But the gist of it was that she had been allowed her freedom for much longer than was usual, probably because she was basically considered Gromph's daughter up to that point and not actually a full Baenre. In any case, Liriel would normally have entered much sooner, but because of her unique circumstances, she didn't enter until she was in the middle of drow adolescence at 40. This makes sense if one considers how long elves live, and how long their adolescence would have to be. I belive most sources consider them full adults somewhere between 90 and 100. Also, not all of them finish at the same rate. Lirial is stated as being way ahead of some of her peers in some subjects, and is studying planar portals with 12th year students AFTER ONLY 3 DAYS! On the other hand, she was very far behind in her knowledge of clerical protocols and the tenets of Lolth. So apparently, some clerics progress faster than others, so Vierna and Maya (Briza was already a high priestess at the start of Homeland, the other two were simply training to reach that status) might have just been a little slower to rise in the ranks. And I think 90 is about average for the full training of a high priestess. 50 yrs, plus another 10-20 for high priestess rank, would put it about right. Maya was simply the last one of Drizzt's sisters to achieve it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 03 Mar 2010 21:22:37 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 23:48:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, I believe they were both much younger than that. Malice herself wasn't much over 400, and Briza as the oldest was probably around 275 at most.
No, I don't know where you're getting that. Matron Malice was definitely 500 years old--not just 400:
-
quote:
"Next time we shall do better," Matron Malice chuckled, though she wondered if there would be a next time. She approached the end of her fifth century of life, and drow elves, even young ones, were not a particularly fruitful lot. (bold added; Hom., P1:C2)
- "Malice was old, nearly five hundred, but Matron Baenre was ancient" (bold added; Hom., P1:C4).
- "Malice had managed to survive the dangers of Menzoberranzan for five hundred years, though, primarily because she understood the implications of angering one such as Matron Baenre" (bold added; Exile, P1:C1).
- "Deep lines of worry creased Malice's once smooth face, and her stark white hair, which had been the envy of her generation, was, for one of the very few times in five centuries, frazzled and unkempt" (bold added; Exi., P5:C23).
And Briza was nearly 400 years old:
- "Briza had been born to Malice at the youthful age of one hundred, but in the almost four centuries since, Malice had produced only five other children" (bold added; Hom., P1:C2).
-
quote:
"It was planned for another of the house," Briza answered, looking to Matron Malice for confirmation. "Nearly four centuries ago."
"Yes," agreed Malice. "The same was to be done to Zaknafein, but the unexpected death of Matron Vartha, my mother, disrupted the plans."
"That was when you became the matron mother," Maya said.
"Yes," replied Malice, "though I had not passed my first century of life and was still training in Arach-Tinilith. It was not a pleasant time in the history of House Do'Urden."
"But we survived," said Briza. "With the death of Matron Vartha,
Nalfein and I became nobles of the house." (bold added; Hom., P2:C10)
There seems to be some sort of a disconnect, here...
quote:
Just a few pages earlier, (ch. 2, pg 28) Triel was talking with her younger sister Sos'Uptu about adding more clerics to the House to build back up it's strength after the war with Mithril Hall, and it is mentioned that most females start the training at the age of 25 or the onset of puberty, whichever comes first (I'm guessing that makes drow puberty start around 20-25, which would make them about 10 or 11 in human terms). She even tells Liriel that she is fifteen years late in going, so the time frame is specific in this case. [...] And Triel even led Liriel to think she was going to Sorcere, until right at the end, just to annoy her and her father.
At first, the context of that scene, so soon after the disaster at the Battle of Keeper's Dale, and with the death of multiple Baenre high priestesses in particular, makes me think that Matron Triel might've just reduced the age prerequisites for Arach-Tinilith just to spur recruitment efforts.
Now, Sorcere is the school with a twenty-five-year-old age prerequisite (see the following Hom. quote)--not either of the other two schools. Is it possible that EC confused the age limit for Arach-Tinilith with that of Sorcere? And did the editors let this slip past?
quote:
It was more generally stated in Homeland, which really only dealt with Melee-Magthere, anyway.
Again, no, I don't know where you're getting this. The age prereq for priestesses was very clearly stated in Hom., as I showed in my last post:
quote:
As a fighter, he [Drizzt] would spend ten years in the Academy, not such a long time considering the thirty years of study a wizard endured in Sorcere, or the fifty years a budding priestess would spend in Arach-Tinilith. While fighters began their training at the young age of twenty, wizards could not start until their twenty-fifth birthday, and clerics had to wait until the age of forty. (bold added; Homeland, P3:C13)
How is that "generally stated"? 40 + 50 = 90. It sounds pretty specific to me. And it specifically deals with Arach-Tinilith--not Melee-Magthere.
Recall also that Malice was one century old but was still training in Arach-Tinilith when she became matron mother. She could have very easily been recalled back home away from school for some house business, and that might've explained why she still hadn't finished her training by age 90.
But it doesn't jibe with a 25-to-75-year-old standard age range for clerical students, at all.
quote:
So apparently, some clerics progress faster than others, so Vierna and Maya (Briza was already a high priestess at the start of Homeland, the other two were simply training to reach that status) might have just been a little slower to rise in the ranks.
Well, sorta. As originally stated, Briza was not a graduated high priestess yet, at the start of Hom., but was still approaching that status:
quote:
Dinin's smile spread even wider when he thought of his own house, which grew in power daily under the cunning guidance of Matron Malice. With all three of his sisters rapidly approaching the status of high priestess, his brother an accomplished wizard, and his uncle Zaknafein, the finest weapon master in all of Menzoberranzan, busily training the three hundred soldiers, House Do'Urden was a complete force. (bold added; Hom., P1:C1)
But that hardly makes sense, as Briza was nearly 400 years old.
Then, there's this:
quote:
On the raised dais at the back of the small audience chamber sat venerable Matron Malice, her belly swollen in the final hours of pregnancy. Flanking her in their places of honor were her three daughters, Maya, Vierna, and the eldest, Briza, a newly ordained high priestess of Lloth. (bold added; Hom., P1:C1)
There, she is described as a high priestess, at least.
But she is described as only a newly ordained one, so that doesn't make sense, either.
So this called for another change:
quote:
Briza had been a high priestess of the Spider Queen for more than three centuries and was now in the favor of Lloth, even if Matron Malice and the rest of House Do'Urden was not. (bold added; Exi., P1:C3)
Now, that makes perfect sense.
(It also coincides with the idea of Briza being nearly 400 years old: began priestess training at age 40, finished at age 90, and lived as a high priestess for more than 300 years since, totalling over 390 years.)
But if at least two of the Do'Urden daughters were still in training and still approaching high priestesshood at the start of Hom., then why did all three already have snake-whips?
quote:
As much as he enjoyed testing the limitations of his inferior station as a male, Dinin could not ignore the threatening glances of Vierna, Maya, and Briza. Being female, they were bigger and stronger than Dinin and had trained all of their lives in the use of wicked drow clerical powers and weapons. Dinin watched as enchanted extensions of the clerics, the dreaded snake-headed whips on his sisters' belts, began writhing in anticipation of the punishment they would exact. (bold added; Hom., P1:C1)
These snake-whips are supposed to be gifts from Lolth that are limited strictly to high priestesses:
quote:
"I had hoped that my time of ascension would be many years away," the eldest daughter said calmly. "But you are weak, Malice, too weak to hold House Do'Urden together in the trials that will follow our-your-failure.'
Malice wanted to laugh in the face of her daughter's foolishness, Snake-headed whips were personal gifts from the Spider Queen and could not be used against matron mothers. (bold added; Exi., P5:C25)
quote:
In answer, Vierna produced a curious whip from under the folds of her clerical robes. While its handle was unremarkable black adamantite, the instrument's five tendrils were writhing, living snakes. Dinin's eyes widened; he understood the weapon's significance.
"Lloth does not allow any but her high priestesses to wield these," Vierna reminded him, affectionately petting the heads. (bold added; The Legacy, P1:C5)
quote:
Whip of Fangs: Evil priests are the only beings able to employ these horrific weapons. In drow communities, only priestesses are allowed to possess and use them.
The whips, once enchanted, are attuned to a specific individual and may only be used by another being after another attunement ritual has been performed (otherwise, they attack anyone except their attuned wielder who touches them!). The ritual of attunement requires the consent of Lolth, and priestesses consider such whips personal gifts from her, believing that they will cease to function, or even turn on their wielder, if they are used in an act against the will of the Spider Queen. Forbidden acts usually include using a whip against a matron mother or other ruling priestess. (bold added; The Drow of the Underdark [2E], C6:p82)
So how could the Vierna daughters already possess and wield snake-whips when they were still only approaching high priestesshood?
I have suggested to Bob Salvatore that perhaps the two younger Do'Urden females only possessed lesser weapons, such as tentacle rods, at the beginning of Hom., and were awaiting their snake-whips upon graduation. He figures that's a good deal.
Or perhaps both Briza and Vierna had already graduated from the Academy, and so they both already possessed their snake-whips, and only Maya wielded a tentacle rod? With Vierna being roughly in the middle of the pack of six offspring, she should have been around 200 years old at the beginning of Hom.. This means that it doesn't make sense that she would still be in training at Arach-Tinilith when Drizzt was born. Why would she need to take time off from school to serve as nurse-maid for baby Drizzt--why would she still be in school, at all?
Unless Vierna really wasn't much older than Maya. Perhaps Vierna, Dinin, and Maya were all actually very closely grouped together in age? This might explain why Vierna and Maya were both attending school at the same time, and why Maya could possibly have graduated earlier than Vierna if Vierna were delayed too long with nurse-maid chores.
No, that's not it. Vierna definitely was at least 200 years old, for she is described as having been around to be a subject of debate "centuries before":
quote:
Zak thought back to the battles he and Malice had fought over Vierna, another child of common concern, centuries before. Vierna was a female, her fate sealed from the moment of her birth, and Zak could do nothing to halt the assault of the Spider Queen's overwhelming religion. (Hom., P4:C17)
quote:
And I think 90 is about average for the full training of a high priestess. 50 yrs, plus another 10-20 for high priestess rank, would put it about right.
Again, I'm not sure where you get this, but if it works for you, then good deal.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 05 Mar 2010 08:41:09 |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 09:26:34
|
BEAST, I don't think that Briza and Vierna graduated from Arach-Tinilith at the ages of 400 and 275. The books state that they were or became High Priestesses around that age. I have always assumed (based on reading of the rules books under 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D) that graduates from Arach-Tinilith are not High Priestesses.
According to the 1st Edition Players' Handbook, one acquires the title of High Priestess when one reaches 9th level. I would say that graduates from Arach-Tinilith graduate as 2nd level priestesses (this being based on the 1st Edition Fiend Folio, as well as the various 2nd Edition Monster books, which state that all drow encountered by adventurers are at least of 2nd level.
Therefore, Briza, Vierna, and Maya would have graduated at or around age 90 (like Malice before them), as priestesses of Lolth, and would have reached "High Priestess" levels around the age described in RAS's novels.
Of course, this "graduating-as-2nd-level" does not fit well with Drizzt's personae, but right from the moment the character was first statted (in FR7-Heroes' Lorebook, he's been an exception to the rules. RAS never let the rules of AD&D get in the way of a decent story twist, but you can't entirely take AD&D out of the novels.
With regard to Liriel's "early" graduation - she, too, was an exceptional case. In the novels, she's described as a child prodigy; Gromph had her trained by the very best, so by the time she formally entered the Academy, she was probably farther ahead of her peers than Drizzt was when he entered. In addition, the rules regarding "Graduation" seem to be applied only insofar as they do not annoy or contradict the whims of higher powers. Drizzt was graduated in a bit of an irregular way, by his sister. He was put in higher-class Melees by the Academy staff (granted, he still had to serve his ten years). I can imagine Gromph walking up to the dean of Sorcere, and tell him "Hi, this is my daughter. As far as you are concerned, she's been here a long time, and she'll graduate NOW. Any objections?" Despite the lip service paid to "rules", there's a couple of higher ones: a) whatever a Baenre says goes; and b) whatever the Archmage says goes. Imagine what happens if the Archmage happens to be a Baenre... |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 23:23:03
|
Liriel did not graduate from the Academy, she was simply placed in a higher class for some subjects because of her talent for magic, just as Drizzt was for the Melees due to his skills. She was there for less than two weeks before she got cought up with Fyodor and his quest. She never went back to the Academy, and in the end became a priestess of Lolth ONLY by pledging herself to Lolth in retrun for a big favor (rescuing Hrolf's ship from a trio of war-ships with a massive teleport, in exchange for offering to fight Ruathym's battles in her name!). She even ended up renouncing Lolth completely later for not following through on the agreement, and instead became a follower of Eilistraee.
Thank you for pointing out those bits BEAST, but it just doesn't really jibe with the other books, either. While it's been a while since I read Homeland, and I had forgotten Malice's actual age (it happens), I don't think it has much bearing. As for her age at Briaza's birth, that would be about right for what I said earlier- again, that Malice probably became a high priestess at around the age of 90. Seventy-five would be for the standard training, and then an additional 15 years(give or take) if they wished to advance to high priestess. Nowhere was it stated to my knowledge that they had not actaully graduated. They simply had not reached the same status as their mother yet. When I said it was generally stated, I meant as a simple and slightly vague reference to their requirements, as opposed to the detailed accounts of Drizzt's time in Melle Magthere. As far as I can tell, ALL drow are required to enter at that age- 25. The only difference is the amount of time spent there. Elaine's books are the only ones I know of that deal EXTENSIVELY with the requirements for a priestess.
And no, Tirel was not lowering the age requirement, she was simply looking for ELIGIBLE Baenre females to add to the ranks. When she said "It has come to my attention that your twenty-fith year has come and gone. Yet you did not enter the Academy, as is law and custom for all those of noble blood. Almost fifteen years wasted in frivolity, when you should have been preparing to serve House Baenre.", she was putting it out pretty plainly. Liriel was just shy of her 40th birthday, as was mentioned earlier. Triel did not change the requirement just for her, she was telling her that she was extremely late in going to begin with!
I don't think it is really so much a matter of one writer not paying attention to the pre-stated canon(such as it was at that time), but since they were dealing with two seperace branches of the school, of course the requirements would be different. The only one that seems to be constant is the 25-year-old entry. Or puberty, if that comes sooner (which it apparently did for Liriel, natch!)
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 09:27:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
BEAST, I don't think that Briza and Vierna graduated from Arach-Tinilith at the ages of 400 and 275. The books state that they were or became High Priestesses around that age. I have always assumed (based on reading of the rules books under 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D) that graduates from Arach-Tinilith are not High Priestesses.
Please look again. Briza was nearly 400 years old (let's say ~390 yr), and it was retconned that she had been a high priestess for 300 of those years (Exi., P1:C3). That certainly sounds like she became a high priestess in the same amount of time that someone might otherwise take just to become a base priestess: ~90 years.
But I think you might be onto something with Vierna.
Briza is particularly cruel and devoted to the Way of Lloth. She might have been enrolled in a sort of "honor"s or "advanced placement" program for her clerical training, essentially accelerating her to high priestess level by the time of graduation, in the time that it usually takes for a female to graduate with a mere base priestess level of training.
Vierna, on the other hand, being a daughter of Zaknafein, might not have taken to clerical training as well. Perhaps she was a bit of a slacker!  So she might have graduated with only a base priestess level of training. Decades (or centuries) later, Matron Malice might've pressured Vierna to go back and get that "advanced degree" that she should've had all along, and so that might be what we were witnessing Vierna going through at the beginning of Homeland.
Maya might've been receiving her high priestess "woo-hoo" training while still attending the Academy, like her big sister Briza had done. Not having been a daughter of Zak or having the slightest in moral scruples, she might've taken keenly to the vile ways of Lloth's clergy.
Something else to consider is that only noble females could attain high priestesshood:
quote:
The guard at each point of the formation wore black robes emblazoned on the back with a large purple-and-red spider design--the
robes of a high priestess.
"Baenre's own daughters," Malice mused, for only the daughters of a noble could attain such a rank. (bold added; Hom., P1:C4)
Since only noble females could attain such rank, perhaps only noble females would be afforded such training. Therefore, perhaps there was a separate track of study for noble females, which at least provided those clerical students with the potential to attain high priestess status? Briza, Vierna, and Maya would've all taken this special degree plan, but apparently it didn't take with Vierna!
quote:
According to the 1st Edition Players' Handbook, one acquires the title of High Priestess when one reaches 9th level. I would say that graduates from Arach-Tinilith graduate as 2nd level priestesses (this being based on the 1st Edition Fiend Folio, as well as the various 2nd Edition Monster books, which state that all drow encountered by adventurers are at least of 2nd level.
In the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set] (2E), it shows a priestess NPC at level 6, with a high priestess NPC at level 8 (M[BS]B3:C5:p49).
The House Nurbonnis character sheets show a base priestess at level 6, and a couple of high priestesses at level 7 and 8.
So level 7 would seem to be the cut-off point for a high priestess in 2E.
I also found this:
quote:
The Matron Mother, the 2 high priestesses, as well as 2 priestesses (5th level) and 10 apprentices (1st-3rd level) will all have gathered before the altar of Lloth, in the family sanctum[...] (M[BS], B3:C6:p62).
So we've got:
- matron mother: level ?
- high priestesses: level 7, 8, and ?
- priestess: level ?, and 5
- [priestess] apprentices: levels 1-3
quote:
Therefore, Briza, Vierna, and Maya would have graduated at or around age 90 (like Malice before them), as priestesses of Lolth, and would have reached "High Priestess" levels around the age described in RAS's novels.
See above quote about Malice still undergoing training in Arach-Tinilith at age 100 when she became matron mother. See above note about Briza becoming high priestess at about age 90. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 10:36:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Thank you for pointing out those bits BEAST, but it just doesn't really jibe with the other books, either. While it's been a while since I read Homeland, and I had forgotten Malice's actual age (it happens), I don't think it has much bearing.
Personal bias: if what you are saying is true and correctly interpreted, then I'd say that it sounds like the other book is the one that doesn't jibe with Homeland. Salvatore created Arach-Tinilith, so what he wrote about it ought to bear considerable weight in a discussion like this, and it should not be dismissed out of hand so casually.
Also, please recognize that I have cited an awful lot of bits, here, from the novel. You've only mentioned one chapter, as I understand it. Is it really reasonable to think that one bit completely nullifies all the other multiple bits of the novel that originated the idea of Arach-Tinilith clerical training?
Or should we try to retcon some sort of way of reconciling all of these little bits, to the best of our abilities?
quote:
As for her age at Briaza's birth, that would be about right for what I said earlier- again, that Malice probably became a high priestess at around the age of 90. Seventy-five would be for the standard training, and then an additional 15 years(give or take) if they wished to advance to high priestess.
The problem, there, is that RAS never mentioned or suggested that the age of 75 had anything to do with it, nor an additional 15 years.
He clearly wrote that clerical students ordinarily began training at age 40 and trained for 50 years. Malice was nearing the completion of her training at age 100 when a family emergency interrupted her--perhaps a similar family emergency had already interrupted her even before that, which would explain why she hadn't already graduated at age 90.
Again, Briza was nearly 400 years old in "The Dark Elf Trilogy", and she had been a high priestess for 3 centuries. This coincides with the standard length of time cited by Bob.
quote:
When I said it was generally stated, I meant as a simple and slightly vague reference to their requirements, as opposed to the detailed accounts of Drizzt's time in Melle Magthere.
But the age prerequisites for Arach-Tinilith were not stated any more simply or vaguely than the age prereqs for Melee-Magthere. They all appear in the same paragraph, in quite the same language (as quoted twice, above).
Yes, Drizzt's fighter training curriculum is described in much more detail than any clerical training.
But the age limits are described equally clearly.
And they don't agree with what you saying.
quote:
As far as I can tell, ALL drow are required to enter at that age- 25.
I would be willing to stipulate to that--now, in the present tense. Apparently, during Matron Mother Triel Baenre's regime, drow begin training at age 25.
quote:
The only difference is the amount of time spent there. Elaine's books are the only ones I know of that deal EXTENSIVELY with the requirements for a priestess.
Again, I don't see how you can say this. Bob formerly wrote a lot more bits in Homeland and Exile illustrating the kind of age prereqs that I've been describing, than what you've cited in Elaine's one book. It seems to me that he wrote more extensively about it than she did.
Although, I must concede that she might've gone into much more detail on the clerical training curriculum than he ever did. Bob's more of a melee/fighter-minded person than magic-minded one, and it clearly shows in his writing.
quote:
And no, Tirel was not lowering the age requirement, she was simply looking for ELIGIBLE Baenre females to add to the ranks. When she said "It has come to my attention that your twenty-fith year has come and gone. Yet you did not enter the Academy, as is law and custom for all those of noble blood. Almost fifteen years wasted in frivolity, when you should have been preparing to serve House Baenre.", she was putting it out pretty plainly. Liriel was just shy of her 40th birthday, as was mentioned earlier. Triel did not change the requirement just for her, she was telling her that she was extremely late in going to begin with!
However, to put equally as plainly, the earlier novel Homeland, in all of its myriad of re-printings over the years, clearly stated that clerical students had to wait until the age of forty.
Therefore, for Matron Triel to say that 25 is the legal requirement for noble clerical students, now, and that 40 is late, now, would seem to--at the very least--reflect a change.
In Real World terms, we can speculate as to whether EC goofed by writing this, or whether TSR/WOTC's editors knowingly approved of this change in the lore.
But in in-world terms, it should be acknowledged that somewhere, somehow, some character changed the "law and custom", here.
And since numerous publications have described Triel's shaky beginnings as a matron mother, complete with power plays and efforts to somehow improve things after the debacle of the Battle of Keeper's Dale, it seems to me that one good way to rectify all of this would be to say that Matron Mother Triel was the one who changed, or approved of the change, to the age prereqs for clerical students.
This acknowledges what came before, and what came later, in a manner that is consistent with the context of the chain of events involved in between.
quote:
I don't think it is really so much a matter of one writer not paying attention to the pre-stated canon(such as it was at that time), but since they were dealing with two seperace branches of the school, of course the requirements would be different. The only one that seems to be constant is the 25-year-old entry. Or puberty, if that comes sooner (which it apparently did for Liriel, natch!)
Are you sure that Daughter of the Drow says what you think it says?
I flipped through the book quickly to double-check this passage that you have mentioned, and it does not exactly say that 25 was the age prereq for Arach-Tinilith. (That had been the age prereq for Sorcere, since Homeland--see the twice-cited quote above).
The DOTD passage indicates that Matron Triel had been toying with Liriel and her expectation that she would be attending Sorcere:
quote:
She [Matron Triel] leaned forward and fixed Liriel with a long, searching gaze. "It has come to my attention that your twenty-fifth year has come and gone. Yet you did not enter the Academy, as is law and custom for all those of noble blood. Almost fifteen years wasted in frivolity, when you should have been preparing to serve House Baenre."
Liriel raised her chin and faced the matron squarely. "I have used the time well. My father," she emphasized, glancing pointedly at the archmage, "arranged for me to have the best magical training possible."
"You have not attended the Sorcere," Triel pointed out, naming the mage school.
"Technically, no," Liriel agreed. [...]
The Baenre matron glanced toward Gromph's scowling face, and a tiny smile lifted the corners of her mouth. "In fact," she continued softly, "I think one could say many are looking forward to the day you finally enter the Academy."
There. The old wretch had finally shown her steel. Liriel's heart sank, but she knew there was no possible way to parry the blow to come. Well, she thought grimly,, she could definitely imagine worse fates. Tbe loss of freedom would be hard to take, but she truly enjoyed the study of magic. [...] She could hit the Academy running, in a manner of speaking.
"When?" Liriel asked bluntly.
"Considering you're fifteen years late, there's no real hurry. Tomorrow will be soon enough," Triel said. Her red eyes glowed with malicious amusement. (Daughter of the Drow, C2)
And when read in that light, sure, Liriel was late--for mage training at Sorcere, which was supposed to begin at age 25, while she was nearly 40.
But Matron Triel does not actually say that Arach-Tinilith has the same age prereq. Methinks you are misreading the passage, or else you're leaving out some other passage that makes your point more clearly than this one does.
Matron Triel pulls a switcheroo on Liriel by charging her to attend Arach-Tinilith, instead of Sorcere, as Liriel had been expecting, and as Triel had been insinuating:
quote:
"At your command, Auntie Triel," Liriel agreed. "I will report to the Sorcere before Narbondel reaches midpoint."
Triel's smile broadened. "I'm afraid you misunderstand, dear child," she said with false sweetness. "You will report to Arach-Tinilith."
"What!"
The word burst from Liriel on a shriek of rage and disbelief. She whirled to face her father. The archmage raised his hand, and the look on his face was so forbidding that his daughter's protests and entreaties died unspoken.
"It is the custom of the city, and it is Matron Triel's wish," he said stiffly.
With great difficulty, the young drow managed a nod. Furious at Triel for shunting her off to the clerical school, she was almost as angry at herself for falling into the nasty little trap the old spider had laid for her. Triel had deliberately led her to believe she would be attending the Sorcere, when all along the matron had intended to send her to the clerical school. (DOTD, C2)
All of Matron Triel's talk of 25 being "law and custom" and 40 being "late" was a ruse, intended to lead Liriel into thinking about Sorcere.
But Triel was actually leading Liriel, herself, into Arach-Tinilith. And 40 is actually the exactly proper age for entering the cleric school, according to standing policy mentioned in the earlier novel Homeland. Liriel was actually tricked into complying with the "law and custom"--that is, for Arach-Tinilith.
So, in retrospect, it would appear that you were correct when you said that Matron Triel did not lower the age prereq for Arach-Tinilith. It is apparently still age 40, now, just as it had been in Homeland.
If so, my personal apologies are in order for Elaine Cunningham and the TSR/WOTC design team members for suggesting that anyone goofed here, at all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 14:57:49
|
Hmmm... I'd forgotten about the "only-nobles-can-be-high-priestesses" kind of thing.
I now tend to think that the title of high priestess is not so much depending on experience levels as it is on standing (social, political, etc.), much in the way that a House ranking is not necessarily determined by the experience level of its members alone. I can imagine that there may be some 10+ level priestesses around that do not get to have the title "High Priestess", because they do not have the political nous, or just happen not to be nobles.
Still, a High Priestess must have some minimal ability - 7th level is probably a good minimum in practice (though I doubt there would be a cast-in-stone rule on it), as this coincides with the experience level at which drow must face the Test of Lolth, and pass it (or become driders).
I still think that graduation from the Academy and the status of High Priestess are not intimately linked (other than the fact that in order to meet som minimum standards, a priestess needs to have been trained fully in the Academy). So, I would not consider Priestess to be the equivalent of a Bachelor's Degree, and High Priestess that of a Master's Degree, or an advanced course. I think that once you're out of Arach-Tinilith, you're pretty much on your own, and the high priestess title would come from policital and social skills, as well as high levels of devotion (even among the Spiderkissers, there are degrees of fanaticism).
If Briza was a prodigy at the Academy, she might have made "High Priestess" quickly, as did Malice (Malice, too, might have been fast-tracked, on the basis that a matron mother needs to be a high priestess, and Malice just happened to become a matron mother very quickly). |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 22:35:52
|
BEAST wrote: "Also, please recognize that I have cited an awful lot of bits, here, from the novel. You've only mentioned one chapter, as I understand it. Is it really reasonable to think that one bit completely nullifies all the other multiple bits of the novel that originated the idea of Arach-Tinilith clerical training?"
No, I'm not saying that, and I appreciate your putting up so many points, but none of them are contradicting what I've stated. Granted, Salvatore's work is the original source for the lore, although I have heard the "most recent books are official canon" argument used in many instances, and since Cunningham's books are more recent, that would seem to apply here. Plus, yes, I've only cited one chapter, but much of the first half of the book deals quite a bit with Liriel's training and what went on there. She managed to make an enemy out of Shakti Hunzrin after only the first three days, due to playing pranks on her and discovering a srcying gem that Shakti had placed in her room, which she then removed and placed in someone else's room to embarrass her even more. So unlike Homeland, which only dealt with priestesshood in passing, Daughter of the Drow really got into what the clerical school is like. I've read both series, and honestly, I'd take Cunningham's account over the Homeland one- nothing against Salvatore, I am a huge fan- simply because while he created it, he really did not do much with it beyond the few minor mentions, where she actually went a step further and fleshed it out considerably. Nothing in the book nullifies what was in Homeland, in fact it really just elaborates on it. Remember, Homeland was about Drizzt, so of course it would mostly deal with his own training, not that of a priestess. The question here is not how old they are when they graduate, which obviously varies, but how old they are when they ENTER. All sources so far cited point to 25. Period.
BEAST wrote: "Are you sure that Daughter of the Drow says what you think it says?
I flipped through the book quickly to double-check this passage that you have mentioned, and it does not exactly say that 25 was the age prereq for Arach-Tinilith. (That had been the age prereq for Sorcere, since Homeland--see the twice-cited quote above)."
Again, yes, it does. Just as 25 is the age to enter Sorcere AND Melee-Magthere, there is no reason to believe that Arach-Tinilith is any different. You have cited the same conversation I did for your reasoning, but it just doe not hold up in context to the rest of the chapter, or to descriptions in the beginning about Liriel herself and her upbringing.
BEAST wrote: "All of Matron Triel's talk of 25 being "law and custom" and 40 being "late" was a ruse, intended to lead Liriel into thinking about Sorcere.
But Triel was actually leading Liriel, herself, into Arach-Tinilith. And 40 is actually the exactly proper age for entering the cleric school, according to standing policy mentioned in the earlier novel Homeland. Liriel was actually tricked into complying with the "law and custom"--that is, for Arach-Tinilith."
Not so. In her earlier conversation with Sos'Umptu, it mentioned the same thing. "By law and custom, nnoble females entered the CLERICAL (emphasis is mine) college with the onset of puberty or upon their twenty-fifth birthday, whichever came first. Gromph had not required his daughter to attend- perhaps he had even forbidden it! The Archemage was hardly devout in the service of Lolth, and Triel had caught glimpses of Gromph's bitter resentment toward the priestess rulers. Yet if Matron Triel commanded, Gromph would have little choice but to send his daughter to Arach-Tinilith.
And Liriel Baenre, as a high priestess of Lolth, would become not only a bright jewel in the crown of House Baenre, but also a powerful reminder to ambitious Gromph as to where the true powere of Menzoberranzan lay." (Ch. 2, pg 28)
The only reason she led Liriel to think she was going to Sorcere, is really more due to her own natural cruelty and wanting to antagonize both Liriel and Gromph, who was present for the meeting, and was most definitely not happy about it. She had already discussed the matter with him, and he later tells Liriel- lying for his own reasons- that it is his own wish for her to become a priestess, as well, saying that she could do a great deal for the House (and for him specifically, as an unspoken addition) as a priestess with wizardly magic. The only misleading Triel did was to which school she was actually going, not the age requirement. Liriel and Gromph both already knew that rule, and Liriel actually pointed out to Tirel that she had already BEEN studying with several Sorcere Masters, even though she was not technically attending yet.
So far, all your assumptions about 40 being the right age to enter is based on the idea that it takes fifty years to complete the training (a given, we already know that) and that Malice had done it by age 90. BUT- you may have forgotten that the top graduating female of each class is awarded the special "honor" *cough* of coupling with a glabrezu during the graduation ceremony. Would this not constitute being elevated to High Priestess rank? Perhaps Malice and Briza had been given this honor, but not her other daughters. Triel did, which is where Jeggred came from, and no doubt there are others. There is also the circumstance that Menzo had just finished a disastrous war with Mithril Hall- Triel is still receiving courtiers to wish her a long reign at the beginning of the chapter, and was not even comfortable sitting in her mother's throne yet. Given this situation, and the resulting lapse in studies by many students being called back to their Houses, and others being allowed to come and go instead of being sequestered in the school, that would cause some students to progress more slowly than normal.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that there is no statement that explicitly says they enter at 40, while I have cited one that DEFINITELY argues for age 25. While you could look at the conversation in the way you said, it has to be taken into context. Liriel was introduced in a fishing expedition where she was described as having been spoiled by her father and not required to enter the Academy by him, which he could get away with because of being the Archmage. But when push came to shove, he had to abide by Triel's wishes, yet still managed to offer Liriel an out, with a book of portal spells to keep her from going crazy in the Academy's stuffy atmosphere.
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Female drows' age in Arach-Tinilith
