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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 22:16:30
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In the United States, medical students are often referred to as "doctors" before they've technically finished their training.
So how long must you train as a wizard's apprentice before you're officially considered as and entitled a "wizard"?
I have become curious about this recently because of work with my Drizzt Chronology:
- Catti-brie begins wizardly tutoring with Lady Alustriel sometime in late spring or early summer of 1372 DR, the Year of Wild Magic (The Orc King).
- In late summer of 1376 DR, at the beginning of The Pirate King, Cat is now considered a wizard, though she is still undergoing tutoring with Alustriel.
- We are told at the beginning of The Ghost King that Catti-brie has been a wizard for less than a decade. TGK is set after the onset of the Spellplague in 1385 DR.
These time clues would seem to indicate that Catti-brie probably got her credentials earlier in the year 1376 DR, just before the start of TPK. 1385 DR - 1376 DR = 9 yr, ~ just less than a decade.
Does that sound about right? Are there any sort of known, standard time intervals for wizard training and conferral of credentials, out there?
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 23:12:55
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"How Long Before You're Officially a Wizard?"
To this base question, the answer is as soon as you dare to do so. Characters can claim to be a Wizard, a Paladin or ant other class without being the class.
In older editions there was a name level of ranks based on level, this no longer apesrs to apply. A true Wizard appears to be any the trains and achieves the 1st level pf the Wizard class.
I do suspect that like Volo, who spent two years as a lawn ordainment, declaring oneself depends much on whom is is declared before. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 23:41:59
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Wow the triple post. It was a triple post.
Looks like Wooly's gremlins were really busy.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 22 Feb 2010 02:14:12 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 00:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Looks like Wooly's gremlins were really busy.
Actually, they're my gremlins, since I've often haphazardly left their cage door open.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 00:18:49
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The only source product I've seen to actually describe in detail the apprenticeship process is the 2e Al'Qadim book Complete Sha'ir's Handbook. Despite the title, much of the page count was devoted to the more regular Arabian wizards, and included mechanics for getting and training apprentices.
In brief, it went like this: Classes are expected to be held at least once a month, lasting anywhere between a day and a week. Each day is eight hours of magical instruction. After each day, a student has a % chance to learn something equal to 20 + their chance to learn spell number (based off of Int). Minimum would be 55% (for an Int 9 wizard). If they succeed, they earn XP based on 1/2 their mentor's chance to learn spell number, - 5 for each apprentice in the class above 1. If any student fails three rolls in a row, they can't actually learn magic.
To become a full (ie: level 1) wizard, each apprentice must earn 2,500 XP. Once they do that they're full-fledged wizards and can leave to adventure on their own. They can also stay and continue to learn from their mentor until they've gained up to half his/her levels. Then they always leave.
So, based on this, several years of apprenticeship would be fairly normal, if not a bare minimum. Modified, of course, by how smart the student is, and how much the master enjoyed teaching. Hope this helps. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 02:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Looks like Wooly's gremlins were really busy.
Actually, they're my gremlins, since I've often haphazardly left their cage door open.
So now I know who to point the 'Blamethrower' at now. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 06:37:01
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| Based on the "Precocious Apprentice" feat from 3.5e's Complete Arcane, it seems to imply that the rules-based cutoff for the apprentice/wizard distinction in 3x rules is three levels of Wizard (and hence, access to second-level spells). I've gone with that for my 3x/3.5/Pathfinder games as a decent enough distinction. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 11:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
In the United States, medical students are often referred to as "doctors" before they've technically finished their training.
'Wizard' tends to connote one of experience and ability, but there's no particular character level or number of years you can tie it to, and there isn't a hard-and-fast official cut-off between 'apprentice' and 'wizard' in (most of) Faerūn. 'Mage' and 'wizard' are broad terms that can encompass apprentices who've just cast their first spell, magelings, and archwizards and mages of power.quote:
So how long must you train as a wizard's apprentice before you're officially considered as and entitled a "wizard"?
There are data points for length of apprenticeship -- I'm thinking Narm, Jhessail, one of the adventurers in Ruins of Myth Drannor -- but I don't have time to delve into the sources. But when a student is thought to have finished their training is also going to vary by individual tutors and local custom. For some, it's when you can cast basic magic competently and reliably, i.e. 1st level in D&D. In other cases mages remain students into their mid-levels -- Khelben and Laeral's senior apprentices being one example.
So who is it who considers Catti-brie a wizard in The Pirate King? Anyway, the four years is a reasonable number, but it's not a fixed status that she's reached.
(If the 'wizard' mention had been in one of Bob's early books it might have been a reference to the 'wizard' level title in 1st edition AD&D where it's name level (9th) for magic-users, mentioned by Kentinal, but neither that nor Complete Arcane is Realmslore.) |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Feb 2010 13:53:00 |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 19:45:29
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| I would say 7th level, by that point you have some real powerful spells & must be shown the respect of the office. Anything under that is really just an apprentice. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 06:04:34
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Who is doing the calling? Seventh level wizards are relatively rare (though more common in the Realms than in, say, Eberron). Maybe a few stuck up tower dwellers would take the tack of "Oh youre not a wizard until you can do x," whether "X" is whatever level spells, or making potions, or making magical items (remember, I'm talking 2e here, where there were a hard level requirement for forging stuff).
But I severely doubt that any common person, or even most adventurers or priests, would 1) know enough to differentiate between a 3rd level wizard or a 7th level wizard, or 2) would dare to call them on it even if they did. After all, even a 3rd level wizard can cast flaming sphere and set your entire field afire, and a fifth level wizard has all those wonderful battle spells like fireball and lightning bolt. Heck, even a first level wizard has charm person, that can bend some impudent peasant's will for months on end. And how many arrogant magelings have we seen in stories?
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as you can cast 1st level spells, you're a wizard. Maybe even as soon as you can cast cantrips, just to be on the safe side. End of story. "Archmage" is a term of respect given only to those who prove they can claim it. "Wizard" is everybody who can even cast a hand-glow, because you never know when they might take offense for being called otherwise. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 05 Mar 2010 06:05:34 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 07:13:44
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I would say that as long as a mage keeps studying on an almost permanent basis with a senior wizard, (s)he'll be called a wizard's apprentice. As soon as (s)he no longer does, (s)he'll be called a wizard. so if the student strikes out on his/her own as soon as (s)he can cast her first sleep spell, then (s)he will be known in general parlance as a wizard. However, if someone sticks around to study with the senior wizard for several levels (in game terms - they gain experience not by adventuring, but by studying; I think neither 1st nor 2nd edition had official rules, with the possible exception of the aforementioned Sha'Ir's Handbook, but I know of several homebrewn systems).
I'd agree with Hoondatha - to laypersons, even a lowly 1st-level mage on his own would be seen as a wizard. Other wizards might have a good idea as to what the mage's relative power is, but the "title" is a matter of perception rather than a hard rule. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 08:26:17
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| Good stuff, all. It sounds like this sort of vague arrangement is exactly the sort of thing that RAS likes to use in his stories. It's about perception more than anything, I guess. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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How Long Before You're Officially a Wizard?
