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Bird844
Acolyte
7 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 01:54:49
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I'm not really sure if this belongs in Running the Realms...
C.S. Lewis once said "You do not have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." But, does this hold true in the Realms, as well as the rest of D&D? Are souls the actual person? Or are they something else?
I ask this because there are several instances in D&D were a character loses their soul and continues to have a sense of self. For example, the Kir-Lanan(Races of Faerun, page 137) are said to not have souls from birth. So then why are they not empty shells, like a zombie or someone who has suffered the Dementor's Kiss(go Harry Potter!).
SPOILERS BELOW! If you have not beat Baldur's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Night 2: Mask of the Betrayer, please skip.
In both NWN2:MOTB and BG2, the main character loses his/her soul. If the soul is the person, then shouldn't the Bhaal Child and Imoen have ended up taking control of Irenucus' and Bodhi's bodies? Shouldn't their bodies have slumped to the floor as unfeeling husks? I mean, when I first found Imoen in Spellhold, she acted something like I would expect from someone who had lost her soul ("So empty..."). But when we where in the dungeon beneath the prison, she was perfectly normal.
Then there's Mask of the Betrayer. In that one, the KC not only lost his/her soul, it was replaced by an avatar of spiritual hunger, and was embedded in the Wall of the Faithless. If the soul is the actual person(proved by Bishop, who's soul you can have a conversation with at the Wall), then shouldn't the spirit eater have immediatly taken over? Shouldn't I have been able to converse with my own soul at the Wall?
The basic question: aren't creatures in D&D(alive, dead, or somewhere inbetween) souls who have bodies? Is the soul inthe relams considered to be the sense of self?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 02:56:30
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Well back in the days, years and years ago when I hard to walk, in the snow, without shoes, though the snow, up hill both ways to go to school and glad that the school was there.
There was a spell called "Magic Jae" that more or less transferred the mind of a person, the memories and thinking capacity, the body left was inhabited by the person that forced the transfer. I am not sure if current edition has this spell active or other trap the mind type spells active yet.
Souls as such in the game does not always translate well to Earth religious belief (in part because there are different belief systems concerning what a soul is). In FR there clearly are creatures that do not require a body, however do have a life force and a sense of self.
My best answer is that a soul does not equal a sense of life. A lich in effect sells its soul in order to maintain a sense of life. That applying Earth term of soul to FR does not work. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 06:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Bird844
I'm not really sure if this belongs in Running the Realms...
C.S. Lewis once said "You do not have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." But, does this hold true in the Realms, as well as the rest of D&D? Are souls the actual person? Or are they something else?
I ask this because there are several instances in D&D were a character loses their soul and continues to have a sense of self. For example, the Kir-Lanan(Races of Faerun, page 137) are said to not have souls from birth. So then why are they not empty shells, like a zombie or someone who has suffered the Dementor's Kiss(go Harry Potter!).
SPOILERS BELOW! If you have not beat Baldur's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Night 2: Mask of the Betrayer, please skip.
In both NWN2:MOTB and BG2, the main character loses his/her soul. If the soul is the person, then shouldn't the Bhaal Child and Imoen have ended up taking control of Irenucus' and Bodhi's bodies? Shouldn't their bodies have slumped to the floor as unfeeling husks? I mean, when I first found Imoen in Spellhold, she acted something like I would expect from someone who had lost her soul ("So empty..."). But when we where in the dungeon beneath the prison, she was perfectly normal.
Then there's Mask of the Betrayer. In that one, the KC not only lost his/her soul, it was replaced by an avatar of spiritual hunger, and was embedded in the Wall of the Faithless. If the soul is the actual person(proved by Bishop, who's soul you can have a conversation with at the Wall), then shouldn't the spirit eater have immediatly taken over? Shouldn't I have been able to converse with my own soul at the Wall?
The basic question: aren't creatures in D&D(alive, dead, or somewhere inbetween) souls who have bodies? Is the soul inthe relams considered to be the sense of self?
I think b/c there are humans (and humanoids) in the Realms, we should feel that our world's definition of souls---as shown by C.S. Lewis---should be valid in Realms-play as well.
I think a human is made up of 3 things:
-body, our outward shell
-spirit, the part of us that'd never be out of existence, as defined by the bible and many other religions
-soul, that which is made up of our experiences, emotions, decisions, rewards, consequences, etc. etc. etc.
Cont'd BG2-SoA spoiler below.....Please Skip if you do not wish to read.....
Re: "If the soul is the person, then shouldn't the Bhaal Child and Imoen have ended up taking control of Irenucus' and Bodhi's bodies?"
Not so, as Irenicus and Bodhi had the advantage, having the protagonist n Immy's souls merged w/thier own spirits, and the PC and Immy left w/voids, relying on the strength of their spirits.
I relate it by saying that soul is what makes a singer able to sing from the heart, but spirit is what you got to get you through, when nothing is going right. Spirit is what you rely on to get 120% out of yourself, when your past experiences ain't enough to tough it out, type of thing.
Re: Shouldn't their bodies have slumped to the floor as unfeeling husks?
No, b/c they still have their spirits, and their physical minds.
My interpretation is that the PC and Immy had spiritual things taken from them. Spiritually raped, for all intents and purposes. And thus, PC and Immy had the choice of just giving up, or toughing it out, seizing the opportunity for restoration, and revenge.
Also, remember a dream that the PC had sometime before going to the Forest of Tethyr, wherein the lady w/Ellisime's voice says "The liars have said their part."
Yes, PC and Immy have been spiritually raped, but the process wasn't enough to take PC and Immy's actual spirits from them, thus PC and Immy had enough susbtance to get them through.
What's more, given the fact that the PC had such a dream, and the fact that Irenicus was just a mortal who sought to join the Seldarine, after reading about how gods work in the Realms, its not out of the realms of possibility that the Seldarine allowed PC, Immy and company to go through all they went through, juss so that (possibly chosen) heroes would have what it takes, and the personal motives to boot, to stop Irenicus, and save the elves of the Forest of Tethyr...as well as everyone else the PC, Immy and crew impacted in BG2-SoA! 
Sorry for being a bit longwinded. But BG2 is juss the most bad-ass game of all-time! |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 15 Jan 2010 06:50:57 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 07:43:55
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In the real world, the ancients differentiated between certain aspects of a person:
- Hebrew khay or or Greek dzôê: physical vitality; biological life.
- Heb. nefesh or Gr. psuchê: the holy lesser breath of life; mind, sentience.
- Heb. ruwakh or Gr. pneuma: the holy mighty breath of life; immortal soul, spirit.
I'm not sure how to incorporate such an analysis into your gaming, but it's something to consider.
In Salvatore's The Crystal Shard, he originally wrote that only fragments of the creator liches' souls were absorbed into the Shard at its forging. I've never really understood exactly what that means.
But since then, it has appeared that the liches' entire spirits, or ghosts/apparitions/specters, were absorbed into the artifact, rather than just portions. Entire ghosts frolic around the Shard once they are released.
So perhaps it was actually their minds that were fractured and partially absorbed, while their souls were kept intact? Schizo specters? This might also help explain why the Shard is described as semi-sentient and single-minded in its ambitions: it was never programmed with the complete consciousness of any source entity, in the first place.
[The Ghost King spoiler on]
In The Ghost King, the Shard appears to be allowing the separated specters to manifest progressively more aspects of their conscious minds, relative to the way that it has managed them in the millenia before. The artifact decides how much of their sense of self to allow them to experience and live out, once again.[spoiler off] |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 11:04:01
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| I think the christian notion that a human is a living soul (which is about what C. S. Lewis is speaking) is not widely known, popular knowdlege talks of having a soul - and this is the background for D&D mythology. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Bird844
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 22:17:39
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I think b/c there are humans (and humanoids) in the Realms, we should feel that our world's definition of souls---as shown by C.S. Lewis---should be valid in Realms-play as well.
I think a human is made up of 3 things:
-body, our outward shell
-spirit, the part of us that'd never be out of existence, as defined by the bible and many other religions
-soul, that which is made up of our experiences, emotions, decisions, rewards, consequences, etc. etc. etc.
Cont'd BG2-SoA spoiler below.....Please Skip if you do not wish to read.....
Re: "If the soul is the person, then shouldn't the Bhaal Child and Imoen have ended up taking control of Irenucus' and Bodhi's bodies?"
Not so, as Irenicus and Bodhi had the advantage, having the protagonist n Immy's souls merged w/thier own spirits, and the PC and Immy left w/voids, relying on the strength of their spirits.
I relate it by saying that soul is what makes a singer able to sing from the heart, but spirit is what you got to get you through, when nothing is going right. Spirit is what you rely on to get 120% out of yourself, when your past experiences ain't enough to tough it out, type of thing.
Re: Shouldn't their bodies have slumped to the floor as unfeeling husks?
No, b/c they still have their spirits, and their physical minds.
My interpretation is that the PC and Immy had spiritual things taken from them. Spiritually raped, for all intents and purposes. And thus, PC and Immy had the choice of just giving up, or toughing it out, seizing the opportunity for restoration, and revenge.
So then in the Realms, the spirit would be the sence of self instead of the soul? Hmmm... that would also explain the Kir-lannan and the KC in NWN2!
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Sorry for being a bit longwinded. But BG2 is juss the most bad-ass game of all-time!
One of the Best Games Ever. Nuff said. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 22:46:15
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Well,
Souls/spirits do travel to their deities realms, or elsewhere, when their bodies pass on. Do remember that souls/spirits are first formed/created in the Positive Energy Plane, or at least they used to be.
Larvae of the lower planes, and even some of the different planar beings, are also formed from souls/spirits plus so are the bricks in the Wall of Faithless. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 23:29:45
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As a former Minister, and now a current Priesthood Holder within my church; let me say what many Christian Theologians believe (not all, just many):
The Spirit is what was created/brought to awakening by God.
The Spirit is sent to live within a body to gain knowledge and life experience.
The Soul is the combination of both Spirit and Body.
NOTE: some faiths believe that when babies are stillborn it is because no Spirit decided to inhabit the body...and further, when the Spirit numbers are done (all spirits have taken a body and been born) that the end of times will come.
Possession by infernal forces is a disembodied/never-bodied Spirit that takes control of a Body by suppressing/ejecting the Spirit that previously had ownership of the Body.
If someone is "damned" then their Spirit is removed from their body and they thus lose their soul.
Those who are "blessed" and taken to Heaven after the Resurrection get to keep their body...and thus they keep their soul.
After death, however, nobody actually goes to Heaven (there has been no judgment yet) nor do they go to Hell (for the same reason); but are instead dwelling in a Spirit World awaiting their re-unification with their Savior after the Resurrection, and then comes Final Judgment.
Those judged unworthy suffer a second death; being the separation from God...while those judged favorably live an "Eternal Life" existence within Heaven.
I should note that this is not the strict belief of my own church; but a common consensus it shares with many other Christian denominations...it is only a general outlook and not specific to one faith (as in: it is my personal view on shared ideas concerning Spirits and Souls from various denominations).
Back onto the topic of D&D strictly (though my outlook is heavily colored by my faith obviously):
I feel that a Spirit is created SOMEHOW prior to a creature coming to life in the Multi-Verse. These spirits find homes within children that are conceived. At joining with the body they become a Soul.
When it is said that a person, race or what have you "loses their soul" it means that they have somehow damned their existence to an infernal punishment or been cursed to one by some means. It doesn't strictly mean that they immediately lose it; but that, like Credit Cards, they owe someone down the road.
Night Hags (and other creatures) that have the Infernal Larvae are actually in possession of someone who had "Lost their Soul" in life and then they were claimed by their "creditor" if you will.
In the strictest sense of D&D, even an Evil Character can obtain "Salvation" through their religious beliefs; but this simply means that they go to whatever "Heaven" their God has created for them. Those who are "faithless" have lost their Soul and are open to possession by whatever power can claim them! This would apply to the Kir-Lanan because they refuse to, or can't, worship any God...and by extension this would extend to other races or individuals as well.
My thoughts long ago was that although Myrkul had faithful followers, they were not to be tormented as were the Faithless; because they obtained salvation through their worship of Myrkul...vile and evil as he may have been.
As for Undead, I still see them as a Soul because, even if unsubstantial/ghostly they have a physical means of interaction with the world...their existence is simply a different kind than the "life" that others are able to comprehend. Not until such an Undead was put to final rest would they either become "Saved" by their God or damned and be open to obliteration by usually infernal forces of one sort or another. Non-intelligent Undead are, in my view, simply automatons that have been given a semblance of life...and so are more akin to a Golem, but one created by the powers of "undeath" and so are considered undead...OR (and this still bounces around in my head at times) they are animated by a Spirit now so lost in the whirl of time that they have only the most tenuous connection with the living world and so they function barely. I even thought that perhaps Infernal Larvae might fall senseless and unable to move while their Spirit was taken and used to animate such as Skeletons and Zombies...and that such use of undead by a living Soul might start wracking up debt against their own salvation...I called this "Corruption" in my longest running D&D game and when the party wizard would resort to Necromantic magic to create undead, it did indeed start to count against her (and then later she couldn't figure out why she was so much weaker to the magic of a Pit Fiend than everyone else in the party  )
So, at any rate, that is my thought on the whole "Lost their soul" debate and how they keep going. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2010 : 21:54:09
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In 4th edition sentient mortal beings are made up of 3 parts; a body, a soul, and an anima. The body is the physical, biological shell, the anima is the animating spark, and the soul is the self-aware, moral and ethical consciousness that directs the body. Oddly enough, memories and knowledge are something independent of the soul, as they remain with the body (or in the astral according to some accounts) when the soul goes to the afterlife.
So under this model, a golem is a construct with an anima (animating spark) that allows it to move and follow directions, but has no consciousness (or soul) to direct it. Likewise, most undead (zombies, ghouls, skeletons) are corpses that possess an anima, which allows them to move, eat, take actions. Some undead have souls and can thus think and direct themselves (vampires, liches) although their souls may be defective, or corrupted in such a way that they are morally/ethically restricted in the choices they make. It may be that the anima they possess is fueled by negative energy which causes them to be evil, but this is largely unexplored. Some might argue that there is nothing inherently evil about negative energy, so it is not certain that the negative energy is what causes the vast majority of undead to be evil, but that is another discussion.
In 3e, the soul/anima distinction did not exist, or was not refined as a concept, at least. Upon death, souls would get whisked through astral conduits (tiny, ubiquitous, invisible wormholes that connect the Material Plane to the Astral) to the Fugue Plane, where the soul would form a spirit body called a "petitioner." At that point, the soul and body were essentially the same. The body is not made of physical matter, but what it is made out of is unclear, possibly the basic substance of the astral plane, or maybe even a psychic projection, I don't know of a source that addressed that, although it may have been mentioned somewhere.
Sometimes the soul gets misrouted to the Ethereal (now part of the Shadowfell?) and becomes a ghost instead. I don't yet grasp how ghosts work in the post Spellplague era, but prior to that the ghost would form what was essentially a petitioner body in the Ethereal plane and then would interact with the Material Plane in the manner that the mechanics of that Plane afforded.
We know that memories have a connection to the body upon death because spells that allow one to speak with the dead reanimate the body without bringing the soul back. Under the effects of such spells, the body acts much like a construct that can talk, and can provide certain information such as who killed it or where the will was hidden, etc, but the body is not strictly self-aware as it does not have a soul.
In On Hallowed Ground (a 2e sourcebook) we are told that when the soul passes into an astral conduit upon death, its memories are left behind in the astral plane as a "memory core". The soul then passes to the Fugue Plane where it arrives without memories, sort of a state of amnesia, the petitioner does not remember its life or family.
In some cases certain souls will have memories of their former lives, but this is either because their patron god has actively restored some (or all) of those memories, or perhaps because of some anomaly. Perhaps, in certain instances, some memories "stick" and travel with the soul, but this would be the exception, not the rule. Some sources may conflict. Certain 2e books may have instances of spirits in the afterlife having memories of their terrestrial lives, but either they learned the details of their life after the fact, or their god granted them those memories, or, more likely, the author just got it wrong. Barring special circumstances, the soul is not supposed to have a memory of its former life.
Immortals (celestials, fiends, and other outer planar critters) and elementals, in general, have no soul/body distinction. If you kill the body, you have killed the soul. I don't think they have "animas", the soul manifests a body for the immortal as a consequence of its nature. Presumably, as long as it is alive, it generates a body.
I have a theory that elementals might be seen more as possessor spirits, animating the base matter of the form they occupy. It is unclear (to me at least) whether they are bound to the specific matter that makes up their bodies, or if they can take in and expel different matter. Is a water elemental bound to the specific molecules (or monads or whatever base elemental matter water comprises in the phantasy physics) that make up its body? Or can it move through water in the same way that a spot in a river is made up of different volumes of water from moment to moment? Is a sand elemental bound to the specific grains of sand that make up its body? Or are those grains of sand fungible? Could a sand elemental move through a dune by swapping out each grain of sand as it passes from one side of the dune to the other? I don't know, something to be determined at least. Not that we can do actual experiments. Has a sourcebook ever touched on this anywhere?
Golems have been said, in some source material, to be animated by "elemental spirits" and base elementals are said to be barely sentient, and often treated to binding and enslavement without much moral reflection on it. Why does no one ever seem to worry about the ethical ramifications of such acts? Isn't slavery abhorrent to most good-aligned philosophies and anarchic/chaotic ethical perspectives?
It may be that elementals are not in fact "souls" but perhaps more properly "animas" in a 4e context. If elemental creatures gain some sort of sentience, perhaps they either grow a soul, become attached to one, or their animas become so complex and evolved that they develop a sense of self. Some sort of higher consciousness as a function of their anima, but maybe they do not actually possess a soul as other creatures have.
In 2e and 3e, elementals were said to have no soul/body distinction in the same way that celestials and fiends also have none. But with the concept of anima, I think that might not be a correct distinction. I think elementals might more properly have no anima/body distinction. If souls are the moral and ethical compass of sentient beings, then that might explain why elementals are (usually) neutral (or unaligned) in that, if they are truly animas with bodies that do not possess souls, then they would not be motivated by ethical or moral concerns and would thus be effective true neutral in alignment or more properly, unaligned. If elementals, or at least base ones, have no soul, as such, then I could see how magic-users that bind and enslave elementals would not have ethical or moral qualms about it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2010 : 23:56:10
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I once theorized that the elemental spirits in golems were analogous to animals: sort of a "lesser" lifeform, native to the elemental planes. Not animals as we know them, but entities of animal intelligence that occupy niches similar to that of animals in the Prime.
That neatly dodges most morality issues, since it makes golemcraft the rough equivalent of training and using guard dogs.
Another theory I've had, and one that I think is more likely with actual elementals, is that these are spirits that are basically compelled to serve by more powerful elemental beings. Elemental lords and such are served by "regular" elementals, and as punishment or training (or maybe just making them put in their time before moving up the ladder), the elementals are essentially loaned out by the elemental lords. The elemental lords don't have an active role in the process, other than designating which elementals are available for summoning to the Prime.
Both of these theories work together; maybe elementals are roughly analogous to certain denizens of the Outer Planes, in that they have to start off as the lowest possible sort of planar life and work their way up the heirarchy to more powerful forms. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 08:47:54
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@ Gray Richardson
quote:
Oddly enough, memories and knowledge are something independent of the soul, as they remain with the body (or in the astral according to some accounts) when the soul goes to the afterlife.
I remember reading something akin to this in a Planescape article in Dragon magazine. Issue #204, IIRC.
It was a situation where a traveller was observing all those souls awaiting Kelemvor's judgment. And I couldn't help but laugh, b/c my 1st thought was that all those souls awaiting Kelemvor's judgement had a conscious that was killing them, and thus they ALL were pretending that they've forgotten all thier bad deeds, for a flicker of hope to escaping Kelemvor's punishment!
And my 2nd thought was that it doesn't quite make sense *WHY* a person wouldn't remember their memories of their previous life. I reckon that its canon, but its not something I'd involve in my campaigns. Though perhaps that's a failing of mine, as I don't quite get it!
(And I should point out that I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong. Simply trying to understand the purposes for depth of roleplay, as we are in the "Running the Realms" section)
quote:
Some undead have souls and can thus think and direct themselves (vampires, liches) although their souls may be defective, or corrupted in such a way that they are morally/ethically restricted in the choices they make. It may be that the anima they possess is fueled by negative energy which causes them to be evil, but this is largely unexplored. Some might argue that there is nothing inherently evil about negative energy, so it is not certain that the negative energy is what causes the vast majority of undead to be evil, but that is another discussion.
Another discussion indeed. But I'll simply contribute that I roleplay that the negative energy enhances the instincts and powers of a vampire, unto corrupting the soul, making it evil by giving into it. However, if the vampire is of a strong spirit, he/she can overcome the evil. Akin to a Bhaalspawn doin his/her best to resist the taint that encourages him/her to give into evil!
quote:
I don't yet grasp how ghosts work in the post Spellplague era, but prior to that the ghost would form what was essentially a petitioner body in the Ethereal plane and then would interact with the Material Plane in the manner that the mechanics of that Plane afforded.
Regarding ghosts, I juss use ectoplasm theories (which I first heard about from the cult classic "Ghostbusters" from the 1980s!) to aid my campaigns, and show how ghosts can interact w/those on the Prime Material. Ectoplasm being the substance showing proof of a "bridge" between the Prime Material and Ethereal.
quote:
We know that memories have a connection to the body upon death because spells that allow one to speak with the dead reanimate the body without bringing the soul back. Under the effects of such spells, the body acts much like a construct that can talk, and can provide certain information such as who killed it or where the will was hidden, etc, but the body is not strictly self-aware as it does not have a soul.
Is that the 3e version? (I don't know b/c I don't have the 3e PH, and am only now getting truly familiarized w/3e)
I believe that if you're simply talking to a corpse w/a mind, but without a spirit and/or soul, then that's exactly akin to talking to a robot.
I think there are more opportunities for roleplaying w/the 2e PH version of the "Speak with Dead" spell, as the description thereof denotes that while on face value, it looks like you're just communicating w/a corpse (or ashes), the words used also go on to describe that you're talking to a fully sentient being, a ghost being a spirit WITH its soul, remembering its life, and choosing what to answer of your questions, and how long the conversation would go on.
quote:
The soul then passes to the Fugue Plane where it arrives without memories, sort of a state of amnesia, the petitioner does not remember its life or family.
That's how the 'petitioners' awaiting judgment in that Dragon magazine article were acting! Again, I roleplay that they are 'pretending' to not remember, in the hopes their karma doesn't come back and bite them where the sun don't shine!
quote:
In some cases certain souls will have memories of their former lives, but this is either because their patron god has actively restored some (or all) of those memories, or perhaps because of some anomaly. Perhaps, in certain instances, some memories "stick" and travel with the soul, but this would be the exception, not the rule. Some sources may conflict. Certain 2e books may have instances of spirits in the afterlife having memories of their terrestrial lives, but either they learned the details of their life after the fact, or their god granted them those memories, or, more likely, the author just got it wrong. Barring special circumstances, the soul is not supposed to have a memory of its former life.
Is that canon?
It just seems backwards to me. I think the best roleplaying would come from the 'rule' being that all dead have their memories fully intact, and that the 'exceptions' would be those who've lost the memories of their terrestrial lives, and are seeking to get it back, if so inclined to do so (ie-the protagonist in the C-RPG Planescape: Torment).
quote:
Golems have been said, in some source material, to be animated by "elemental spirits" and base elementals are said to be barely sentient, and often treated to binding and enslavement without much moral reflection on it. Why does no one ever seem to worry about the ethical ramifications of such acts? Isn't slavery abhorrent to most good-aligned philosophies and anarchic/chaotic ethical perspectives?
The source material where that's from is the 2e Monstrous Manual entry on golems.
The 2nd part of what you wrote here is something I've thought long on. I'm sure that their are serious ethical ramifications to think about w/ALL Faerunian deities. If you're good or neutrally aligned, you don't want to tick off a good or neutral god by enslaving the wrong spirit. And if you're evil aligned, you don't want to enslave a spirit of which the evil deity would have another purpose for, rather than powering your pet Stone Golem and such!
Thus, I roleplay that if a good-aligned priest or religious type magic-user (or merchant, etc) wants to create a golem, he/she petitions his/her deity to find the right spirit for the task.
I further roleplay that the spirits that qualify for such a horrifying task are those who developed a really horrific amount of bad karma while they were alive; the type of people who are suitable to become ghouls, heucuvas, and those whom the deity wouldn't at all provide a saving throw for, if they were about to be enslaved in soul gems.
If a non-religious magic user (but not evil) wanted to create a golem, then he/she can go to a genie, or those that deal w/genies, to find the suitable soul to create the golem.
If an evil priest, or mage whose made pacts w/demons wants a golem, then I roleplay that his/her deity or demon will provide the spirit of a former mortal who failed them miserably, or some such.
Those ideas aren't canon, nor are they at all consistent w/the 2e Monstrous Manual's description of golem-building. They are just the main ways for golem creation in my campaigns.
I also figure that some spirits from a plane like Mechanus wouldn't mind being the spirit to power up a golem on the Prime Material, as I figure they wouldn't find that to be a punishing task, like a human/humanoid would.
It's a great discussion we got going on here!
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 19 Jan 2010 09:10:47 |
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Are Souls People?
