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Lord of Bones
Seeker
United Kingdom
78 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 09:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Hi again, all. I sent the last few posts in this thread along to Ed, and got a lightning-swift reply for Markustay:
Well, I was JUST too young to successfully persuade my parents that I should be allowed to travel across the border to attend ANY sort of concert.
However, this is something that has been pondered before, by me and Jeff Grubb and Karen Boomgaarden over drinks at a long-ago GenCon, and a definitive answer was agreed upon: only three folk of the Realms briefly attended (parts of) Woodstock, and they were Storm Silverhand, Dove, and a masked lady they brought along: Queen Filfaeril of Cormyr.
So saith Ed. There. THAT was a surprise to some of you, wasn't it?  (I said "some"...)
love,
THO
If I remember correctly Frank Mentzer was at Woodstock, could it be that Dove foretold the creation of TSR and later suggested that he join the company?
Now, as for Fzoul and that early Allman Brothers concert...
Sorry to keep this off-topic, but Fzoul certainly has the beard for it...
And now back on-topic, what kinds of entertainment does a man like Fzoul enjoy? Or to be more precise, back when Zhentil Keep was at its height (pre-Cyric), was there a theatre, bardic hall or anything of the like where people could go to be entertained? What would be the difference between plays and music in a place like the Keep compared to city such as Athkatla? |
Come watch the Gentleman's Guide to Gaming!
http://www.youtube.com/user/clackclickbang
On my channel I review and dissect role-playing games with great gusto. Please do take a look and let me know what you think. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 04:02:28
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Hi again, all.
As promised, Ed has unearthed that handout from GenCon back in 1991 in response to Thauramarth's query about the zulkirs of Thay. Here (Copyright © 1991 by TSR, Inc. but handed out to a seminar audience with verbal permission given by Ed and TSR staffers that it could be reproduced and disseminated freely for use in home Realms campaigns, and this post is precisely that sort of "reproduction") is the text of "what the public can see" (those were Jim Ward's words, I believe) about the rulers of Thay:
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Oct 2010 04:03:29 |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 05:06:03
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Hello all,
Not sure if it's been asked before, vampiric weapons that damage an undead or negative energy creature do what to the wielder if they are not negative energy creature?
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 05:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
As promised, Ed has unearthed that handout from GenCon back in 1991 in response to Thauramarth's query about the zulkirs of Thay. Here (Copyright © 1991 by TSR, Inc. but handed out to a seminar audience with verbal permission given by Ed and TSR staffers that it could be reproduced and disseminated freely for use in home Realms campaigns, and this post is precisely that sort of "reproduction") is the text of "what the public can see" (those were Jim Ward's words, I believe) about the rulers of Thay:
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 14:58:05
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Awesome stuff THO - give Ed a hearty thanks for this treasure trove.
I note that Ed has previously given us pre-zulkir lore on Thay and the founding of the Red Wizards which indicated that Szass Tam was a hidden power behind that organisation pretty much from its inception. Given that, what was Szass's role in the founding of the zulkirate (if any) and can he tell us more regarding Szass and Thayd and what dealings they had with one another (covertly or openly)- again, if any?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 17:20:09
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Thank You so much for those last two replies, Ed and THO. Was only half-joking about my query, but that was an awesome (and unexpected) response.
Soooooo... Filfarel's been 'around the block', eh?
@Quale - That was only the remains that the CIA wanted us to find. 
The mathematical formulas he was working on had certain dimensional implications (hence my wondering if he 'made it' elsewhere).
And although Elvis wasn't at Woodstock, we know from MIB that "Elvis isn't dead, son... he just went home"
Which is why my 'Old West meets the Realms' campaign had a Bard named Elvish Presley. 
What can be cooler then sideburns with pointed ears?
@Brimstone - You quoted an entire huge post just for a smiley? 
And this brings me back to a question I asked quite some time ago, that I believe I only got a 'yes' response to, IIRC, and would love to get at least one name.
Are there any 'Earthers' living in the Realms, either now or in the past, for any length of time?
In my old GH campaign I had the party meet an elderly (and rather melancholy) Amelia Earhart, although they never 'got it' (she only went by 'Amelia'). I hate those kinds of 'missing persons', and would like to think at least some of them are happily living somewhere else. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2010 19:04:06 |
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Lord of Bones
Seeker
United Kingdom
78 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 18:22:24
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| That lore on the zulkirs or Thay was quite frankly... superb. My thanks to you! |
Come watch the Gentleman's Guide to Gaming!
http://www.youtube.com/user/clackclickbang
On my channel I review and dissect role-playing games with great gusto. Please do take a look and let me know what you think. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 03:47:51
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Yes Markus!! That lore was outstanding!!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 05:25:51
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Thanks Ed and THO for sharing that Zulkirate lore!
Of all the zulkirs mentioned, I find Balineth Skroun most commendable. Dmitra Flass seems to be his female counterpart. Iyrith Telgahlagar, on the other hand, is the most interesting. “Asmodeus among us”---had Szass Tam been around then, he would have been amazed with him, and would have undoubtedly done everything to gain an alliance with him.
I just notice that there's no Zulkir of Divination in the first Zulkirate. So who exactly is the first zulkir of that school and when did he/she occupy that office? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:59:51
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| Follow up to my vampiric queation, can constant use of such a weapon on myriad of creatures begin to change it's wielder over time, mutate him? |
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 21:04:46
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| Lady Hooded, this is probably one you can answer quickly, yourself. Is entry through the main gates of Waterdeep shut down at night by the Guard, or is it 24/7 access? I can see arguments for them doing it either way, and I can find/remember nothing in published lore that makes note of it, either way. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 02:36:37
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Hi again, all.
Karth, I'm afraid the answer to your question is: it depends.
On when (era) your Realms campaign is set, and what time of year it is, and what the current situation is (wartime or peacetime for Waterdeep, orc horde expected or not, etc.)
Or to put matters another way:
Up through the 1380s, the gates were always closed at night. The HARBOUR remained open (unless storms or threat of attack caused its closing [[raising of the harbor chains]]) around the proverbial clock (meaning: even before there were clocks ;} ), but the gates closed at nightfall and were opened at "full dawn." Exceptions being: when City Guard commanders of certain high ranks, or the Open Lord of Waterdeep, ordered them opened during night hours for a specific purpose (usually just long enough to let someone specific in or out).
After the Spellplague effects and aftereffects settled down, Waterdeep tried keeping the gates open clock-round during the trading season (meaning: not during winter, but all the rest of any year UNLESS there was threat of war, raids, orc hordes, plague or disease epidemics, etc.) for several long periods (decades).
Then some trouble - -usually brigands - - would erupt that would cause them to close the gates at nightfall again, for a bit, until demands by local guilds, caravan companies, and independent outland traders caused them to try opening the gates again.
(This lore comes from Ed, who discussed this topic with Susan Morris as part of editing the ED GREENWOOD PRESENTS WATERDEEP series. I know about it because he discussed it with me, too.)
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 02:44:34
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Hi again.
Lord of Bones, this excellent query: "And now back on-topic, what kinds of entertainment does a man like Fzoul enjoy? Or to be more precise, back when Zhentil Keep was at its height (pre-Cyric), was there a theatre, bardic hall or anything of the like where people could go to be entertained? What would be the difference between plays and music in a place like the Keep compared to city such as Athkatla?" deserves a proper answer from Ed, but I know Fzoul enjoys plays that involve deceptions ("comedy of manners" of the Noel Coward and Oscar Wilde sorts) from Realmsplay with Ed as DM, and (same source for my knowledge) Zhentil Keep at the time you've mentioned had both strip shows ("pleasure queen revels") and about a dozen theatres of various sorts, which were all popular/packed (by various sorts, I mean venues that customarily offered the same SORT of play each night, specializing in either variety of the sort that Americans might term vaudeville and British might call music hall, or what we could call opera (serious plays involving tragedy, love [usually doomed], and high adventure, that had songs), or what we might term snide comedy/satire of current politics and life "protest plays." Manshoon loved these latter entertainments, and let them continue even when they became highly critical of his growing power and the tightening Zhentarim grip on the city.
Ed will, of course, provide more details when he has time for proper Realmslore replies (he's VERY busy right now, and low on funds and therefore needing to stay busy)...
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 02:49:18
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. . . and hello again, everyone.
George, you're very welcome. Ed was delighted that he could FIND that handout so quickly, after all these years.
Adn to you and to dennis, I have to regretfully say: I've passed your specific questions (re. Szass Tam, the first Zulkir of Divination, etc.) on to Ed for eventual replies, but I have to warn you that I think NDAs are going to rise up here, because I KNOW there's an "untold tale" regarding Szass Tam's early life and career in the Realmslore TSR/Wizards is sitting on - - by this I don't mean Ed-penned fiction, but Ed-penned game lore, that someone at TSR seized upon eagerly for some project or other . . . and hasn't yet relinquished, despite the project not (yet) seeing print.
So, we'll just have to hope, but it's not a bright and strong hope, I fear...
love,
THO |
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 03:58:23
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quote:
(This lore comes from Ed, who discussed this topic with Susan Morris as part of editing the ED GREENWOOD PRESENTS WATERDEEP series. I know about it because he discussed it with me, too.)
love,
THO
Perfect, Hooded Lady. Thank you again. To paraphrase Dune: 'The Realmslore must flow...' ;) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 10:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I know Fzoul enjoys plays that involve deceptions ("comedy of manners" of the Noel Coward and Oscar Wilde sorts)
Thats not what I would have guessed, but I love the idea. How does the farcical elements where society and morals are concerned, so important for these writers, play itself out? I am asking as the Realms (and Zenthil Keep) naturally has quite different views and societies from the early 20th century. Especialy where sex and relationships are conserned. I can see a Sembian or Cormyrean play that describes the newly rich and the vain of the upper classes, but how would the Moonsea versions play this out? And are the plays locally written or preferably imported pieces ridiculing the adversaries in other countries? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 16:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
. . . and hello again, everyone.
George, you're very welcome. Ed was delighted that he could FIND that handout so quickly, after all these years.
Adn to you and to dennis, I have to regretfully say: I've passed your specific questions (re. Szass Tam, the first Zulkir of Divination, etc.) on to Ed for eventual replies, but I have to warn you that I think NDAs are going to rise up here, because I KNOW there's an "untold tale" regarding Szass Tam's early life and career in the Realmslore TSR/Wizards is sitting on - - by this I don't mean Ed-penned fiction, but Ed-penned game lore, that someone at TSR seized upon eagerly for some project or other . . . and hasn't yet relinquished, despite the project not (yet) seeing print.
So, we'll just have to hope, but it's not a bright and strong hope, I fear...
love,
THO
 No real surprise... we had "points of light" long before the Spellplague, in the form of pinholes in the NDA-shrouds such as Brian James' excellent article on Ironfang Keep... that's what the phrase "points of light" means to me.
Hrm... someone who was at TSR then, and is still with Wizbro now... there aren't many of those. Unless this someone is now or always was a freelancer. Either way, I won't speculate on names. Nor will I ask about my favourite piece of must-be-released lore; I know Ed and Brian C. are doing all they can to drag it kicking and screaming into the light... what little of that there is these days.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 16:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
sfdragon, re. your questions, above, about The Simbul devouring magic items...Ed says this:
The short answer to your question is: Yes to your first question, so of course "No" to your second.
The long answer: NDA. I can't say more until some future books have been published. Ahem: hint, hint.
Heh. So saith Ed.
Who often aches to say more than he can.
love,
THO
Hrm... I had already suspected the short answer, but the long answer intrigues me by its wording... "books" plural... more than just Bury Elminster Deep, then? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 Oct 2010 16:59:22 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 18:29:24
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Ed & THO,
Thanks for the great, great Zulkir lore, which is making its way straight to my files on Thay. A follow-on question (likely to hit NDA, but that's never stopped anyone from asking the question).
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
When reading this, I get the impression that Thayd was around at the time of the first zulkirate, which seems to coincide with the foundation of Thay as an independent nation. Published realmslore puts Thayd as being executed around -1087, which is almost two millenia prior to the "official" founding of Thay (922).
So, I was wondering - was Thayd around as late as 922? perhaps in a form that allowed him to survive being executed by the God-Kings of Mulhorand, such as a clone, or as a lich? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 18:53:26
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Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 19:15:04
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I think you forgot the [evillaugh] Bwahahahaha! [/evillaugh]
I used Thayd's vestige for my Chessenta campaign's BBEG. His motivations were truly twisted by spending several ages in the Far Realm. Awesome I guessed right about his state, as a DM I love possesive "sentiences". |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 20:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
"Eventually vanished"... When? 14th century DR? 13th century DR? I don't need an exact date, just an approximation would be nice... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 00:04:40
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So the next time the party comes across the desiccated body of some poor animal in the middle of nowhere, miles from any living thing or settlement... LOOK OUT.
As for Zhentish Entertainment, there is a fairly enlightening scene in Prince of Lies wherein a street-show is being performed. There are some details in the scene that could prove very useful in a game session (like the fact that all performances MUST be approved by officials first, which includes censoring content).
And now, a question. Not just for Ed, but all authors who care to give their own answer. I am posting it here because I would like to hear Ed's answer the most, since he literally 'wrote the book' on FR, but everyone who has been published within a D&D/shared-world setting is welcome and encouraged to provide their own.
Do you find the nature of a D&D setting - the 'everythingness' of it all - hand-tying in anyway while creating your fiction?
In other words, the Realms is an 'everything but the kitchen sink' setting. For a DM, thats great, because anything we think of we can make work somehow, but does that very 'everythingness' interfere with plots?
For instance, if you write a murder-mystery in FR, why doesn't someone just talk to the dead guy? Or his dog. Or even an inanimate object. Why doesn't a Mage just cast a divination spell to find the murder weapon, or the murderer himself? Or better yet, cast a spell to see how the event unfolded?
Why should a dead king stay dead? Or anyone for that matter? Why bother with archaelogy, when you can just ask an Elf what Netheril was like, or ask some Lich how things were in Imaskar. Why bother with metalurgy when you have dwarves? Why bother with culture when you have Elves? Why do humans bother doing anything? Its all been invented and discovered for them.
Have a problem getting an item from a shipwreck? Just hire a merman, or a sea-Elf. Have a fire? Cast a water spell. Need to do reconnaissance, send your wizard's eye out, or use a crystal ball, or hire a few Aarakokra or some other flyers.
In other words, there is so MUCH in a world like FR (literally HUNDREDS of intelligent races, all with unique abilities), and so many different ways to accomplish the same things, how do you address that problem? Without thousands of readers asking "why didn't the characters just do this?"
I guess what I am saying is, in a shared-world setting as involved and detailed as one like FR, you CAN'T control all the variables like you can in a world you hand-tailored to your stories. You can't place built-in barriers and weaknesses into the story to achieve balance, because all of that is already defined by the setting.
It just seems to me, that if I were to write a story in such a setting, I couldn't possibly work-out the trillions of variables that a super-setting engenders. A setting with specific lore tailored to enhance the story seems to be the much easier route to go.
Bottom line is, is there such a thing as 'too much'? Were the original Realms designed to incorporate everything D&D threw at it? Or was the setting smaller in scope, and therefore easier to manage? Did Ed go out of his way to make everything core work, or did he hand-pick the lore and monsters he wanted in his setting?
EDIT: I realize I just asked a second, yet related, question - sorry. Still, I would be interested to know if Ed has found it significantly harder to write his stories in the WotC Realms then it was when they were still his. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2010 00:16:21 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 01:52:18
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Great questions, Markustay. Off to Ed your post goes.
His answer is what you're looking for, of course, but Ed has answered this sort of query many times before, at GenCon and elsewhere, so I can give an indication of what his answer will be, with a quote from an e-mail he sent to a awed-by-the-Realms designer coming on staff long ago (I have it because it got saved by someone at TSR and resent to others, as calming and guiding advice):
The Realms is incredibly detailed and complex, yes, but don't let it scare you. After all, our real world is WAY more detailed, complex, varied, and uncontrolled than the Realms, but none of us think twice about writing a ghost story, murder mystery, romance, or James Bond-style thriller set in the real world. Just make sure to run major plot ideas, NPCs, and places past me or the "old Realms hands" staffers, to let us shoot holes in them before the Realms fans do. :} We'll tell you where the skeletons are buried...or AREN'T buried, heh-heh.
So saith Ed. Decades ago.
Of course, he'll have more to say by now.
love,
THO
P.S. Realms fans in Toronto, Ontario, Canada: Bob Salvatore is signing GAUNTLGRYM at the World's Biggest Bookstore on Edward Street (just north of Yonge & Dundas) at 7pm tomorrow (Thursday, October 7th), and Ed may or may not be on hand for the start of the event . . . |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 01:58:56
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| Seems like most of the kitchen sink problems with writing fiction in the FR can be avoided through pacing and setting. For instance if you need to know how that corpse died in the next five minutes, you don't have time to run off and find someone who can cast Speak with Dead. And if the bulk of your tale takes place in the wilderness or dungeon depths you are not likely to have resources outside of your companions to fall back on. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 04:51:10
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Simple question:
What's with all the thousands of NDA's?
There are thousands of mysteries, and when we ask, we get told nope, we can't tell you, ha ha.
Will they ever be revealed? Unlikely.
Ed Greenwood isn't exactly young, and he will die of age sometime. Then all those mysteriies answers will be losted.
Why must they exist? It never made sense to me, other then just money of course.
Does Ed even care? Or does he think it's just hilarious to keep so much from fans? |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 05:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Simple question:
What's with all the thousands of NDA's?
There are thousands of mysteries, and when we ask, we get told nope, we can't tell you, ha ha.
Will they ever be revealed? Unlikely.
Ed Greenwood isn't exactly young, and he will die of age sometime. Then all those mysteriies answers will be losted.
Why must they exist? It never made sense to me, other then just money of course.
Does Ed even care? Or does he think it's just hilarious to keep so much from fans?
Okay, do you honestly think Ed would willingly hold back a single scrap of lore that people wanted to know? If so, you've badly misread him.
NDAs are imposed by companies, for a variety of reasons. As we've seen with TSR/WotC, this reason is often future plans/storylines. These plans often get changed, delayed, or dropped. Now, at that point, it would indeed be reasonable to drop the NDA. But there are reasons not to: leaving it in place means that those plans can be revisited or revised, or revived at a later date. And, as has been pointed out more than once, leaving an NDA in place is totally free. Lifting an NDA involves paperwork and contacting all the relevant parties and tossing some funding at the lawyers that make these things binding -- and all of that is for no return.
So WotC, and TSR before them, lose nothing by leaving an NDA in place. No one likes it, but that's the reality we have to deal with. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 05:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Simple question:
What's with all the thousands of NDA's?
There are thousands of mysteries, and when we ask, we get told nope, we can't tell you, ha ha.
Will they ever be revealed? Unlikely.
Ed Greenwood isn't exactly young, and he will die of age sometime. Then all those mysteriies answers will be losted.
Why must they exist? It never made sense to me, other then just money of course.
Does Ed even care? Or does he think it's just hilarious to keep so much from fans?
Legal Agreement called "Non-Disclosure Agreement"...
Breech of which could cost his small estate its entire net worth.
Ed Greenwood, I'm SURE, and I'd bet my last nickel on it, would LOVE to tell everything and all about the Forgotten Realms...just as any creator would. What good is creating something wonderful if you aren't allowed to share it!
The thing is: it is GOOD to not know everything...especially if you are gaming in the world. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 05:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Simple question:
What's with all the thousands of NDA's?
There are thousands of mysteries, and when we ask, we get told nope, we can't tell you, ha ha.
Will they ever be revealed? Unlikely.
Ed Greenwood isn't exactly young, and he will die of age sometime. Then all those mysteriies answers will be losted.
Why must they exist? It never made sense to me, other then just money of course.
Does Ed even care? Or does he think it's just hilarious to keep so much from fans?
Legal Agreement called "Non-Disclosure Agreement"...
Breech of which could cost his small estate its entire net worth.
Ed Greenwood, I'm SURE, and I'd bet my last nickel on it, would LOVE to tell everything and all about the Forgotten Realms...just as any creator would. What good is creating something wonderful if you aren't allowed to share it!
The thing is: it is GOOD to not know everything...especially if you are gaming in the world.
Indeed. Dracons, might as well bring your rant to WotC. I think they added Rant, for The Dead and The Living Hearken! section in their forum. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Oct 2010 06:03:30 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 06:04:55
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They won't do a damn thing. They don't give two craps about their customers.
I also don't see Ed exactly doing anything to get them released.
They're plenty of people that do know the answers. So why can't others?
It's deeply annoying that we will never know the true answers for so many things. Sure, as a DM we can make it whatever we want, but I'll always know what I think it is, is not the answer. Hell, they're mysteries that are decades old, and they're not any closer to being answered now then we were in the beginning. It won't be answer in our life time. What's worst, that if wizards closes, or the license for Dungeons and Dragons doesn't get sold or bought, then the answers will NEVER be told.
And if Ed, as much as I love him and his great work, doesn't even care or try, then what's the point of having them? Why did he agree to such a stupid deal of giving up mysteries and never telling us?
Couldn't we all sign the NDA's and be done with it? Or is it super duper limited to two people a decade??
Why can't someone just write up the answers to NDA's, and send them off through the internet using proxies and different areas, so that no-one could track who did it? They couldn't be sued or fired for that as wizards couldn't prove who did it.
Yeah, it's illegal. But it's a stupid law. It's a game world of fans, not a murder mystery.
If Ed needs money to do it, I'm more then willing to bet my soul, that thousands of fans will be willing to donate alot of money. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010)
Topic Locked
